I'm No Luddite! But I Have...Artistic Concerns...

You've heard all this cutting and pasting and correction a million times and don't even know it.

Don't kid yourself.

Okay, so at the risk of really p!ssing people off...

To take this idea a bit further, there are lots of players who, when improvising, routinely play nothing new or original, but only learned licks and phrases gleaned from other people, strung together in ways that they know will work.

Is that actual improvisation, or is it mental "cut and paste"? And is the musician doing this an artist, or a craftsperson?
 
You've heard all this cutting and pasting and correction a million times and don't even know it.
No, I know all of that, everything you said, and have known it for years AND done it myself. But there is a huge difference between what you’re talking about, and what I did… record a perfect 4 measures of a rhythm guitar part, then copy it to all three versus, than there is grabbing things other people did, and copying them into “your” song. That’s my opinion, and if you disagree I’m OK with it as long as we disagree like gentlemen.

I record a part, and copy it a few times in MY song, vs. I take bits and pieces of stuff other people have done and make my song… I view that very differently. That said, full disclosure, I did more than one song with a Boss DR 880… and used it’s preset patterns for the drum parts. But I ONLY did that because I didn’t have access to a drummer, and it was not a commercially released song. And, later I used a drum program and programmed every beat. But again, only on drums because I can’t play drums. I did all the other parts of the songs.

And I know lots of people do that. But I do not view a one man band playing 3-4 instruments or parts, and doing drums on a machine or computer, to be the equivalent of someone sitting down with software drums and synths, and copying a clip here and a clip there and pasting a whole “song” together.

If you all do, that’s fine. I’m not going to argue about it anymore, but don’t really want to be insulted for disagreeing with it either. If you think someone who doesn’t play any instrument but “creates” music that way is a “musician” then that’s fine. So, as long as it can remain civil, I’ll continue to discuss and ask where you guys draw the line on these things, and if we disagree we do.
 
Okay, so at the risk of really p!ssing people off...

To take this idea a bit further, there are lots of players who, when improvising, routinely play nothing new or original, but only learned licks and phrases gleaned from other people, strung together in ways that they know will work.

Is that actual improvisation, or is it mental "cut and paste"? And is the musician doing this an artist, or a craftsperson?
Good question!

Artist, if they do it artistically. Skunky player if they do it badly.

Orchestral musicians interpret other people's work beautifully and artistically.
 
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If you think someone who doesn’t play any instrument but “creates” music that way is a “musician” then that’s fine. So, as long as it can remain civil, I’ll continue to discuss and ask where you guys draw the line on these things, and if we disagree we do.
This thread wasn't posted to discuss your myopic take on hip hop. You were proven wrong in my first reply.

You've never done or attended a hip hop session, and you don't understand the art of it. That narrow-mindedness is your problem, not anyone else's.

Enough, already.
 
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This thread wasn't posted to discuss your myopic take on hip hop. You were proven wrong in my first reply.

You've never done or attended a hip hop session, and you don't understand the art of it. That narrow-mindedness is your problem, not anyone else's.

Enough, already.
I was very clear in follow up posts what I was talking about. The thing I said that was wrong, was that whole genres of music were created without people who could play an instrument or sing. That, was an exaggeration, and I corrected it later to say that there is documentation out there to show that there are many who can’t do either.

So, now I ask a question, and say “if we disagree that’s OK” and this is your response? That I’m wrong, narrow minded and STFU already? :(
 
Honestly, these same arguments happened with the advent of synthesizers in the 70's. I know because I was an early student of electronic music back then. Mellotrons were controversial. Sequencers too. Synthesizers weren't "real" instruments, etc., etc.
 
So, now I ask a question, and say “if we disagree that’s OK” and this is your response? That I’m wrong, narrow minded and STFU already? :(
Yes.

I am always right.

Disagreeing with me is always wrong.

It can't be OK to 'agree to disagree' on this stuff. The delicate balance of matter and antimatter in the universe would be upset, causing the entire universe to consume itself and collapse into a gigantic black hole.

It's basic science!

I don't guess you'd want that on your conscience.
 
Yes.

I am always right.

Disagreeing with me is always wrong.

It can't be OK to 'agree to disagree' on this stuff. The delicate balance of matter and antimatter in the universe would be upset, causing the entire universe to consume itself and collapse into a gigantic black hole.

It's basic science!

I don't guess you'd want that on your conscience.

Don't listen to him, DTR!

I mean, sure, if you upset the balance of matter and antimatter and caused the universe to collapse into a black hole, it would be on your conscience. But so would everything else as all of known existence was crushed into a singularity, rendering individual events and items meaningless.

I'll give you the advice my therapist gave me when I said I was feeling self-destructive - "Go for it!"
 
Yes.

I am always right.

Disagreeing with me is always wrong.

It can't be OK to 'agree to disagree' on this stuff. The delicate balance of matter and antimatter in the universe would be upset, causing the entire universe to consume itself and collapse into a gigantic black hole.

It's basic science!

I don't guess you'd want that on your conscience.

Don't listen to him, DTR!

I mean, sure, if you upset the balance of matter and antimatter and caused the universe to collapse into a black hole, it would be on your conscience. But so would everything else as all of known existence was crushed into a singularity, rendering individual events and items meaningless.

I'll give you the advice my therapist gave me when I said I was feeling self-destructive - "Go for it!"
You realize DTR has left the building. Definitively.
 
How about defining 'copy and paste'?

You realize that major label recordings were duplicating and splicing in things like well-played choruses, licks, vocals, etc., back in the day of classic rock and tape, right? They were even cutting and splicing in individual tracks on multitrack tape.

All tape machines in pro studios came with splicing blocks. The splicing blocks got used on a daily basis to...yes...cut and paste. Because that's what a splice is.

Also understand that your current favorite bands are doing the same thing digitally. "Grab the drum fill from bar 25, and lets use it again in bar 48." Etc. Lots and lots and lots of things get fixed in the mix that way. Everyone uses these tools. That's why people record to a click track. So they have consistent timing and can cut and paste, or 'comp' takes easily on a time line.

When sampling came in, traditional bands used it to sample and "fly in" parts just like cutting and pasting on a computer. In fact, that was its original main use in pro studios. If you think your favorite bands weren't doing this, think again.

Famous traditional rock bands are also:

Quantizing audio if the timing of the playing is slightly off; grabbing the best phrases of a solo and comping one together from only the best phrases; changing pitch digitally, including guitar solos if a note is off; and I'm only scratching the surface. Let's not even talk about vocal pitch correction - it's a standard part of all pro mixing chains at this point to correct off-pitch parts.

You've heard all this cutting and pasting and correction a million times and don't even know it.

Don't kid yourself.
I was actually going to bring up this subject earlier, I just didn't want to type that many words :)
 
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