The low threshold to entry for guitar

[DreamTheaterRules]

I got that from the earlier post.
If someone chooses to have low expectations of me, I can choose to be offended, or take it as an opportunity to greatly exceed those expectations. Of course I have the advantage of not giving a **** what idiots think of me. It frees my mind to make an independent decision regarding whether or not I can learn something from them - granted, not always what they think they are teaching.

When I dropped this class I had to quickly sign up for another one to cover the credit hours I needed. When I discussed it with my faculty advisor, he said that if I had pushed the issue could’ve been admitted to the class based on my ability to read music on piano. The professor who is the head of the music department, actually became good friends with my mother a year after this happened when he got sick and she covered him in a concert performance. But he didn’t teach the theory class or I would’ve tried again my junior year.

A Couple years after I got out of school he actually asked me why I wasn’t in the music program when I was there because he was recruiting my sister at the time. I told him that story and he laughed and said “yeah that sounds about right for him. “

But that said, I never pushed the issue, because I was never convinced that I needed it, so never learning it is more on me, than it is the professor who wouldn’t let me in. When you’re young and think you could play anything you want without reading music or knowing theory, you don’t think you need to do either one.

 

[Rod/]

You don’t need music theory to know that Can’t you see is in the key of D. You can hear it. I describe to my beginner students that the root/key is home.. always returning.. Some theory is however very helpful in other contexts

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

You don’t need music theory to know that Can’t you see is in the key of D.

No, but imagine how frustrating it would be, to learn every song by ear. It takes you a while to realize that this band plays with guitars and bass tuned down a half step. This one plays in Drop D. This one is down a half step and THEN turned to drop D. This one has multiple songs on the same album that mix standard tuning and down a half... so to play along with the album you have to keep stopping and retuning between songs. And the best of all... you can learn every song on the Led Zeppelin album except the acoustic one because you didn't even know about "alternate tunings." No wonder the classical dudes think we're nuts.

 

[Huggy Love]

Do you want jazz? Because that's how you get jazz!

I've held off on my 2 cents on this debate until I ran across this.

While I think always learning, when it comes to music (especially Jazz) is a necessary and blessed thing, but music theory in the book sense is not a requirement to play Jazz. I play a handful of standards & Bossa Nova tunes in my set, and I have little to no theory of that nature. I even have a tune I play chords & solo at the same time and I couldn't for the life of me tell you what scales I'm running, or what that chord shape is. I'd have to look it up.

Another case in point is George Benson, one of the greatest Jazz players of our lifetime is well documented in saying that he has no music theory training whatsoever. I remember reading an interview of him saying that if you learn the songs, learn the right notes, phrases, & scales that fit, you're amassing an organic type of music theory thru your ears, mind & heart. I truly identify with his view as I look at it in a very similar way. Every Standard or Jazz tune I learn is like a music lesson within itself, minus the mathematics & terminology.

I did take a basic college music course once, aced the class, all of it was things I've played and I spent the whole course saying "Oh that's what those are called".

 

[RossF]

Unfortunately, that is often not an option.

I was kidding.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Sorry for all the long stories/posts yesterday. Looking back, TMI. Got caught up in the story and telling that I had actually tried to learn theory. Sorry for the wasted forum bandwidth.

 

[Moondog Wily]

Sorry for all the long stories/posts yesterday. Looking back, TMI. Got caught up in the story and telling that I had actually tried to learn theory. Sorry for the wasted forum bandwidth.

Nothing wrong with what you did. If people don't know how to scroll past something they think does not fit their time/agenda, that is their problem not yours!

 

[jak3af3r]

Sorry for all the long stories/posts yesterday. Looking back, TMI. Got caught up in the story and telling that I had actually tried to learn theory. Sorry for the wasted forum bandwidth.

It's a good story though and not dissimilar to how I got called out in music publishing and not knowing the answer to new material. The difference in me answering "this is the reason I'm here" was completely unexpected and valued so I got a free pass on that one.

I also like to see how everyone else processes playing music.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

I also like to see how everyone else processes playing music.

I play with some "bluegrass" guys at church, and the bass player is borderline autistic. After literally 10 years of him saying at rehearsal "is that the way you're going to play the solo when we perform" and me saying "no, probably not," he's graduated... We're now playing over 50% music that he and the guitar player wrote. The guitar player is 100% on board with me doing whatever I want and he's the other guy that I played the 3 year long "Roland Micro Cube gig" with. But the bass player can't stand it that I play whatever I want, don't write out solos, don't take music on stage with me, etc. Anyway, as part of doing songs they wrote, he records the song on a multi track for us to practice with and learn the song prior to rehearsal, and, he's playing the solos and asking me to play what he played. He is a good bassist, solid acoustic rhythm player, etc. but a very basic soloist. VERY basic. I've told him 3 times that He can write out whatever he wants but I'm not playing those solos that way... His thing is always "but if we don't know what you're going to play, how do we follow and know when to come back in?" I've told him 25 times, I have this many measures to solo and it doesn't matter what I do during that time, the solo will end at the end of those measures" and he just can't process it. I literally told him a few weeks ago that while I have no issue doing the songs they write, if he asks me again to duplicate his solo, I'll be leaving the band for good.

That's kind of a yin and yang of how two guys process their music

 

[FragileThunder]

I play with some "bluegrass" guys at church, and the bass player is borderline autistic. After literally 10 years of him saying at rehearsal "is that the way you're going to play the solo when we perform" and me saying "no, probably not," he's graduated... We're now playing over 50% music that he and the guitar player wrote. The guitar player is 100% on board with me doing whatever I want and he's the other guy that I played the 3 year long "Roland Micro Cube gig" with. But the bass player can't stand it that I play whatever I want, don't write out solos, don't take music on stage with me, etc. Anyway, as part of doing songs they wrote, he records the song on a multi track for us to practice with and learn the song prior to rehearsal, and, he's playing the solos and asking me to play what he played. He is a good bassist, solid acoustic rhythm player, etc. but a very basic soloist. VERY basic. I've told him 3 times that He can write out whatever he wants but I'm not playing those solos that way... His thing is always "but if we don't know what you're going to play, how do we follow and know when to come back in?" I've told him 25 times, I have this many measures to solo and it doesn't matter what I do during that time, the solo will end at the end of those measures" and he just can't process it. I literally told him a few weeks ago that while I have no issue doing the songs they write, if he asks me again to duplicate his solo, I'll be leaving the band for good.

That's kind of a yin and yang of how two guys process their music

I am very much like you when it comes to this. Hell, I can't even play MY songs the same way twice!

 

[JasonE]

I have been out of the gigging loop for a handful of years now and have been trying to find a way to get that excitement back without having to say up till 3 AM to get there. I have been thinking of finding a good local teacher and diving back into a theory study. I know a fair amount. I also know enough to know what I don't know or could improve on. I was going to try to start on it by myself but that hasn't gained much traction. I also know at some point I will need to find someone who knows more than me to explain some things for me. I actually like getting into conversations about this stuff. I find it interesting and I always end up adding some new aspect to my playing by studying it.

I am also a player that very much so uses my ear. The teachers I had in the past all commented on how good my ear was. I felt like a human jukebox at one point. I used to be able to hear a song and figure it out pretty fast. That helped me in the band scene a lot. The combination of a good ear and having a decent grasp on theory really took my playing to a whole new level. I am pretty rusty right now and am hoping that something that is in the works will help me get this started.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

I am very much like you when it comes to this. Hell, I can't even play MY songs the same way twice!

well, I CAN play them the same way, I just don't. If I'm playing someone elses music, I'm a "note for note" guy on the solos. But if I make up my own, I figure I can play whatever I want. When I play with the orchestra, about 50% of the time, I'm playing a written out solo and I play it as written. with just some expression added.

But actually MOST of my playing is more of the "note for note" variety because usually I"m playing some band we've all heard of. But I'm no chicken picker so when they ask me to play that stuff I play what I want. As the other guitar player says "Bluesgrass" HAHA

 

[jak3af3r]

I play with some "bluegrass" guys at church, and the bass player is borderline autistic...

Reminds me of this keyboard player that was pre-existing in the band I got added to. He had charts for everything and some were actual lead sheets. IF you could get this guy off the paper, it was good fun to trade solos with him but man he could get lost in a hurry if he was only reading down the charts.


Also if they're really bluegrass players, don't they do that thing where they stick their leg out when their solo is about to end. I thought that was the cue unless that banjo player lied...

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Reminds me of this keyboard player that was pre-existing in the band I got added to. He had charts for everything and some were actual lead sheets. IF you could get this guy off the paper, it was good fun to trade solos with him but man he could get lost in a hurry if he was only reading down the charts.


Also if they're really bluegrass players, don't they do that thing where they stick their leg out when their solo is about to end. I thought that was the cue unless that banjo player lied...

Mine just tip their cowboy hat when their solo is over.

 

[jak3af3r]

Mine just tip their cowboy hat when their solo is over.

In all seriousness, I was in a bluegrass group for a little while playing mandolin and lifting the leg at the end of a solo was supposedly the customary way to signal the end of a solo. This was according to everyone else in the group who had been going to bluegrass camps most of their lives.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

In all seriousness, I was in a bluegrass group for a little while playing mandolin and lifting the leg at the end of a solo was supposedly the customary way to signal the end of a solo. This was according to everyone else in the group who had been going to bluegrass camps most of their lives.

well, one of these guys lived in Nashville for 20+ years but played mainly country and rock when he was there. (That's my Micro Cube gig buddy, the rhythm guitar player). The others are from Ohio so they're wanna be bluegrassers.

 

[jak3af3r]

well, one of these guys lived in Nashville for 20+ years but played mainly country and rock when he was there. (That's my Micro Cube gig buddy, the rhythm guitar player). The others are from Ohio so they're wanna be bluegrassers.

The funny thing about that is I was the only guy in that group from Kentucky.

All the money I made was playing country and rock so not much has changed here.

Do those guys use the Nashville numbers system?

 

[Tedder]

I've held off on my 2 cents on this debate until I ran across this.

While I think always learning, when it comes to music (especially Jazz) is a necessary and blessed thing, but music theory in the book sense is not a requirement to play Jazz. I play a handful of standards & Bossa Nova tunes in my set, and I have little to no theory of that nature. I even have a tune I play chords & solo at the same time and I couldn't for the life of me tell you what scales I'm running, or what that chord shape is. I'd have to look it up.

Another case in point is George Benson, one of the greatest Jazz players of our lifetime is well documented in saying that he has no music theory training whatsoever. I remember reading an interview of him saying that if you learn the songs, learn the right notes, phrases, & scales that fit, you're amassing an organic type of music theory thru your ears, mind & heart. I truly identify with his view as I look at it in a very similar way. Every Standard or Jazz tune I learn is like a music lesson within itself, minus the mathematics & terminology.

I did take a basic college music course once, aced the class, all of it was things I've played and I spent the whole course saying "Oh that's what those are called".

I was just funning around with that comment.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

The funny thing about that is I was the only guy in that group from Kentucky.

All the money I made was playing country and rock so not much has changed here.

Do those guys use the Nashville numbers system?

Not with me

I'll ask them.

 

[Daryl Jones]

I found theory in my piano days extremely frustrating and boring. So much so that I (much to my father's chagrin) dropped the Conservatory program and quit the piano (technical and classical training) completely after reaching Grade 8 certification and took up with a garage band where I could use the freedom to explore stuff that was a s**tload more fun. Typically it went nowhere as most 17 year-olds end up focusing more on physical endeavors like ice hockey and aimed at a career in professional sports. Which also went sideways thanks to my brazen outspokenness and Celtic temper. Took a long time to cool those jets down too.
Why I didn't channel some of that unresolved musical desire into guitar I have no idea, it was totally impossible to pack an upright piano anywhere (duh) plus I couldn't afford an electric keyboard in my mind, and trombones really weren't all that cool in a rock band unless you were lucky enough to get picked up by something like Chicago. But I find now that much of that theory I struggled with in my teens has found a very useful place in recent years. Not that I really want to write my own music, other than some experimental noodles that I will get sidetracked with sometimes for hours on end. But theory does have value and certainly a place if you want to go there. And I'm enjoying the additional perspective it has provided my playing.