WTF!

[Lola]

3NPS
CAGED SYSTEM
PENTATONIC MAJOR AND MINOR SCALES.

What is the most efficient to use? I never really used the caged system. Just too confusing for me. Shapes, notes! I started learning 3 nps a while back and then I just reverted to pentatonic scales, they have their limitations as well.

What then?

 

[eddieknuckles]

Question:

>Do you ever feel that you know too much of what you're playing in advance, and if so, what do you do about it?

Pat’s Answer:

Definitely that happens. One of the best things to do is to stop. Just before you're about to play something, don't play it. Even if you start one beat later--which can seem like an eternity at the moment that you've just stopped yourself from playing what you want to play--it almost always makes you land on your feet in a different way, which then makes you play something different. Almost everybody, myself included, plays too much. It's always a good idea to lay out for a bar or two. I was talking with Dave Liebman about this exact subject recently, and his thing was, "Just take the horn out of your mouth." For a horn player, that's a great suggestion. For guitar players, bass players, piano players, drummers, it's a little harder, but it's still good. I've noticed Sco [John Scofield] is doing that now; he actually takes his hands off the guitar for a second, and I'm sure he got that from Liebman, who he played with for a long time. It's a great suggestion. Take your hands off the guitar. The world won't come to an end [ laughs ]. Another Pat wisdom:

 

[MichaelS]

3NPS
CAGED SYSTEM
PENTATONIC MAJOR AND MINOR SCALES.

What is the most efficient to use? I never really used the caged system. Just too confusing for me. Shapes, notes! I started learning 3 nps a while back and then I just reverted to pentatonic scales, they have their limitations as well.

What then?

Scales and CAGED didn't click for me until I was introduced to 'Octave Shapes'... to me they're the real backbone everything can build off, whether it's chords, scales, or modes...
Should be some youtubes from Mike Palmisano ('GuitarGate') out there to get started with octave shapes.

 

[Lola]

I just want to feel comfortable enough in playing all over the neck. There is too many “methods” for playing all over the fretboard. I just want it to come as natural as possible and with fluidity and NOT have to think about it.
I am looking into melodic sequencing. Anything that will let me play mindless.

 

[MichaelS]

I just want to feel comfortable enough in playing all over the neck. There is too many “methods” for playing all over the fretboard. I just want it to come as natural as possible and with fluidity and NOT have to think about it.
I am looking into melodic sequencing. Anything that will let me play mindless.

Octave Shapes can ground you to all root notes on the neck for a specific key. From each of those you can hit 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, etc.
start on one position of the neck, move to another with ease.
knowing where a 5th, major/minor 3rd, or any notes in the scale sit in (geometric) relation to a root note will allow you to not having to think anymore.
I'm very visual so the simple fact that one string up on same fret from root is a 4th, and one string down same fret is a 5th blew my mind. how the minor or major third sits one string up and to the left. once you build out that understanding with all 6 other notes in relation to the root, you've learned a scale without memorizing any scale. (then there's just the little 1 fret shift for that darn b-string lol)

the other thing with octave shapes then is that they're basically half a chord shape. So you move to that position, add some notes and you've got a chord or chord tones you can play there.
It was like the fog cleared once this clicked for me.

 

[MichaelS]

I just want to feel comfortable enough in playing all over the neck. There is too many “methods” for playing all over the fretboard. I just want it to come as natural as possible and with fluidity and NOT have to think about it.
I am looking into melodic sequencing. Anything that will let me play mindless.

says CAGED on the video, but he's explaining octave shapes...

 

[Lola]

knowing where a 5th, major/minor 3rd, or any notes in the scale sit in (geometric) relation to a root note will allow you to not having to think anymore.

Working on this today. I have neglected this area of knowledge too much. Time to get the pickle out. This is quite interesting.

 

[veinbuster]

I have no idea what I do might be called. A long time ago I got comfortable with the relative position of every note in the scale from a root note, so once I’ve picked the root, I can play from there. The octave is just a new root, so I carry on from that. The pattern only shifts between the 2nd and 3rd string (assuming standard tuning) by one fret, so it isn’t hard to visualize. My fingers are used to the spacing, so I don’t really need to look at the fret.

 

[JasonE]

When I was teaching, I used to sprinkle in the CAGED system with the major scales I was teaching. I don't find the CAGED system comes to mind when soloing but it does when creating chord progressions. It opens the door to chord shapes in various areas of the neck. It also opens the door to partial chords. Then you can get into inversions to really start to understand how to play things in pretty much any part of the neck.

 

[jak3af3r]

I don't find the CAGED system comes to mind when soloing but it does when creating chord progressions. It opens the door to chord shapes in various areas of the neck. It also opens the door to partial chords. Then you can get into inversions to really start to understand how to play things in pretty much any part of the neck.

This is interesting because I see CAGED as a framework or anchoring points for chords so when you solo, you have all the chord tones available across the neck. So whatever chord tone is available at any given time is a safe zone to land in if you get lost.

Partial chords and inversions are where it's at though. It keeps you out of the way if there's another guitarist and if you're the only guitarist, you don't end up sounding like everyone else.

 

[JasonE]

This is interesting because I see CAGED as a framework or anchoring points for chords so when you solo, you have all the chord tones available across the neck. So whatever chord tone is available at any given time is a safe zone to land in if you get lost.

Partial chords and inversions are where it's at though. It keeps you out of the way if there's another guitarist and if you're the only guitarist, you don't end up sounding like everyone else.

I agree with how you see the CAGED system. I think the reason I see it the way I do is that I learned my scales and where the chords are in each pattern before I learned the CAGED system. So, I sort of learned a big part of it before I knew it was a thing. I see things in the same way you do on the fretboard. I just came at it from a different angle.

Another interesting thing is that the way I learned the scale patterns is in the same order as the CAGED system. I have seen many publications that number them differently than I learned them. When I found out about the CAGED system it all clicked and made sense due to the way I learned my scales. When I was teaching I taught them the same way I learned them and I tied it in with the CAGED system as I taught it. That way it all fits together nicely and makes sense.

 

[veinbuster]

Partial chords and inversions are where it's at though. It keeps you out of the way if there's another guitarist and if you're the only guitarist, you don't end up sounding like everyone else.

Interesting that you mention this. It is the biggest thing I took away from Ted Greene’s challenging books.
I frequently practice 3 note inversions along the neck: open to 15th fret. There are some satisfying voicings doing this. I’m not sure if I ever put an example on YouTube. I do toss one on Instagram from time to time.

 

[jak3af3r]

Interesting that you mention this. It is the biggest thing I took away from Ted Greene’s challenging books.
I frequently practice 3 note inversions along the neck: open to 15th fret. There are some satisfying voicings doing this. I’m not sure if I ever put an example on YouTube. I do toss one on Instagram from time to time.

Are you using this for triads only (major, minor, augmented, diminished) or with extensions as well (7,9,11,13?)

If you're doing chords with extensions, I'm curious as to what notes are recommended to omit (if any.)

 

[veinbuster]

Are you using this for triads only (major, minor, augmented, diminished) or with extensions as well (7,9,11,13?)

If you're doing chords with extensions, I'm curious as to what notes are recommended to omit (if any.)

I might not have the vocabulary to answer this properly, but I’ll give it a shot.

When I do this as an exercise, I am typically doing it as triads with a range to 13. I visualize the space as the major scale, knowing that the minor is just a shift in the start/end. Honestly, much of what I find appealing is the inherent flow between a major and a minor feel.

I don’t think I’m qualified to recommend inclusions or omissions, but there are some decorations I find appealing (when teaching myself to play rhythm I focused on what notes I could add to decorate a chord):
I like a pause on 9, a stutter on 13 with a fall to 9, diminished 5 in blues...

If any of that makes sense.

 

[veinbuster]

For what its worth, I found an old example of what I've been talking about.

 

[jak3af3r]

For what its worth, I found an old example of what I've been talking about.

Ok I see what you're doing. This is all diatonic harmonization of the major scale (C major if my ears are working well today) with major, minor, and a diminished triad.

One of the nice things about CAGED is once you know all the shapes you can do the same thing you've done in the video in the span of a few frets without moving up and down the neck.

 

[veinbuster]

Ok I see what you're doing. This is all diatonic harmonization of the major scale (C major if my ears are working well today) with major, minor, and a diminished triad.

One of the nice things about CAGED is once you know all the shapes you can do the same thing you've done in the video in the span of a few frets without moving up and down the neck.

Yes. I do it across the fretboard as well. By using the different inversions and parts of the fretboard, I find it gives me a good feel for how to transition between chords.