I'm No Luddite! But I Have...Artistic Concerns...

I'm not angry or pissed off.

I just think you might want to know more about what you're talking about before popping off on the subject. You don't really know how hip hop music is produced; you don't understand how the tools and instruments are used; haven't ever created or worked on a hip hop track yourself; you're vaguely familiar with less than a tiny sliver of the music; you make a lot of assumptions that are utterly incorrect.

Under the circumstances, I don't see why you'd want to go spouting off in relative ignorance, but that's your business. Nonetheless, you can't expect people to just sit back and not comment.

It's not about, "Well he just doesn't like the style of music." It's that you're largely wrong about the entire process of creating it, soup to nuts, and you're not familiar enough with the repertoire to make meaningful comment.

But again, here's the shovel. The hole awaits.
You're right. I don't like it, so I don't dig deep to look for reasons to like or respect it. I went down a rabbit hole of watching videos about this very topic after the last go-round here... there is plenty of info out there that supports your comments. And plenty that supports mine. And that is my issue at the core. You can do this, be very successful at it, make millions in the music industry, and can have no ability to sing or play any instrument, and some can't even program beats. There are documented cases of this very thing. So while some may have great musicians or singers and may have great musicians programming beats, it is not a requirement in this type of music.

I have said that it is more "art form" than "music." (Didn't he just say that in the video above?) Again, nobody has to agree with that. But please don't get pissed and start insulting me for saying it.
 
No, the difference is, I acknowledge that some people CAN be musicians and can use programing to write music. Les does it. I have done it. I'm sure there are others here who have, and probably you. And for the last time, I'm not saying NONE of them are a musician. But it is well known that more than a few of them can't sing or play and even have to have someone else program the beats for them. Like the video said, it's more an art form of spoken word than Coltrane.
Yeah, it’s your annual semantics thread, like arguing if billiards is actually a sport or some sh!t.

It honestly no longer bothers me aside from the fact that I think it causes you some distress, and I think you’re an alright guy, and I don’t like seeing that.
 
It's not really a question of 'fair use', at least under US copyright law. Fair use is a defense to what would otherwise be a copyright violation, such as educational use, parody, etc.

Listening to music by someone else, of course, violates no copyright laws. That only happens when something is stolen, and there's no fair use defense available.
Good clarification of fair use, the use of the material itself in certain contexts.

Training an AI is much closer to listening to music or looking at art. It's setting billions of parameters via techniques like stochastic gradient descent on massive data sets. It would be pretty hard to say that the value of any of those parameters is infringement. However, the output of the AI can infringe. As an example, the same article I quoted above noted that Google has an advanced music AI trained on 280,000 hours of music, but has not released it yet because about 1% of its output was thought to be infringing material.
https://google-research.github.io/seanet/musiclm/examples/

I'm not a legal expert on the subject (I know way more about the underlying technology) but it seems that what you can and can't copyright is perhaps most well defined for music than other artistic material.
 
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Yeah, it’s your annual semantics thread, like arguing if billiards is actually a sport or some sh!t.

It honestly no longer bothers me aside from the fact that I think it causes you some distress, and I think you’re an alright guy, and I don’t like seeing that.
You're probably right. I let some work stress get too me and was in a rare bad mood. Then I got legit pissed when I saw JXE's comment and went into defense mode. Should have stopped then and not directed it at anyone else. Sorry for that! :(

Billiards, huh? You really want to go there? :p:p
 
You're right. I don't like it, so I don't dig deep to look for reasons to like or respect it. I went down a rabbit hole of watching videos about this very topic after the last go-round here... there is plenty of info out there that supports your comments. And plenty that supports mine. And that is my issue at the core. You can do this, be very successful at it, make millions in the music industry, and can have no ability to sing or play any instrument, and some can't even program beats. There are documented cases of this very thing. So while some may have great musicians or singers and may have great musicians programming beats, it is not a requirement in this type of music.

I have said that it is more "art form" than "music." (Didn't he just say that in the video above?) Again, nobody has to agree with that. But please don't get pissed and start insulting me for saying it.

Since I haven't been part of this apparently recurring theme yet, let me perform my usual role of Devil's Advocate (a role, I should note, that often falls flat because people fail to recognize the "Devil's Advocate" part). You might find your argument more compelling if the inference weren't that "most" hip-hop artists are not musicians. In the highlighted passage above, "can" and "some" are the important qualifiers- not ALL. But in reading your previous comments in the thread, the inference seems to be that the majority of hip-hop artists are inherently "not musicians". Something that is both provably false and undermining your argument that the SOME who don't "play" anything aren't musicians. I'd still feel free to disagree with you, but you'd probably find more people willing to acknowledge the merits of your argument. :)
 
Since I haven't been part of this apparently recurring theme yet, let me perform my usual role of Devil's Advocate (a role, I should note, that often falls flat because people fail to recognize the "Devil's Advocate" part). You might find your argument more compelling if the inference weren't that "most" hip-hop artists are not musicians. In the highlighted passage above, "can" and "some" are the important qualifiers- not ALL. But in reading your previous comments in the thread, the inference seems to be that the majority of hip-hop artists are inherently "not musicians". Something that is both provably false and undermining your argument that the SOME who don't "play" anything aren't musicians. I'd still feel free to disagree with you, but you'd probably find more people willing to acknowledge the merits of your argument. :)
You're probably right as well. I have allowed that just because they didn't sing or play, doesn't mean they can't. But I probably assume a lot of them can't or they would. So, if I'm wrong on that, I'm wrong, but based it on what I heard or saw. Opinions change as more facts are provided.
 
Good clarification of fair use, the use of the material itself in certain contexts.

Training an AI is much closer to listening to music or looking at art. It's setting billions of parameters via techniques like stochastic gradient descent on massive data sets. It would be pretty hard to say that the value of any of those parameters is infringement. However, the output of the AI can infringe. As an example, the same article I quoted above noted that Google has an advanced music AI trained on 280,000 hours of music, but has not released it yet because about 1% of its output was thought to be infringing material.
https://google-research.github.io/seanet/musiclm/examples/

I'm not a legal expert on the subject (I know way more about the underlying technology) but it seems that what you can and can't copyright is perhaps most well defined for music than other artistic material.
Good clarification of fair use, the use of the material itself in certain contexts.

Training an AI is much closer to listening to music or looking at art. It's setting billions of parameters via techniques like stochastic gradient descent on massive data sets. It would be pretty hard to say that the value of any of those parameters is infringement. However, the output of the AI can infringe. As an example, the same article I quoted above noted that Google has an advanced music AI trained on 280,000 hours of music, but has not released it yet because about 1% of its output was thought to be infringing material.
https://google-research.github.io/seanet/musiclm/examples/

I'm not a legal expert on the subject (I know way more about the underlying technology) but it seems that what you can and can't copyright is perhaps most well defined for music than other artistic material.
You've touched on a couple of things that are pretty interesting!

A little bit about my background: I've litigated music copyright cases in several federal district courts and courts of appeal (as counsel; I practiced law before going into music full-time many years ago), and have guest-lectured on the topic at U of Michigan School of Music, AES, U of Detroit Law School and others, because I can draw from the perspectives of both law and music.

I still occasionally negotiate licenses to musical and other artistic works for ad agencies. I recently did so working with a few famous artist's estates, for a client I often create music for. So here goes:

There are no set definitions relating to music as to what is or isn't subject to copyright. There are no preordained legal criteria. It's amorphous. Every case is determined on its own merits, by the court and jury (or judge if juries are waived by the parties).

The law simply requires a creative work of some kind, without fully defining it. The copyright is 100% complete and owned by the creator once it's "affixed to a tangible medium;" that can be a recording, score paper, a computer file, and on and on.

No copyright registration is needed, here or in most countries, under the provisions of the Berne Convention, a treaty the US joined in 1987, after nearly 100 years of not joining it. Copyright renewals are no longer needed.

The same copyright laws apply to music, visual art, cinema, books, photographs and other artistic works. The distinctions are minimal.

I think the intent of leaving certain definitions open was to allow for flexibility in the arts as they develop. Unfortunately, when it comes to this kind of thing, flexibility can also lead to practical confusion. In any case, copyright is far less well-defined than most might think!

Federal courts have exclusive jurisdiction over all copyright matters. Registration used to be required to lay claim to a copyright, but now registration is only required to access the jurisdiction of the federal court. In other words, to sue you must register the copyright. Otherwise it's not necessary. But I recommend it regardless.

In the case of recordings, two copyrights apply: The copyright to the song itself, and the copyright to the recording of the song, which is regarded as a separate creative work. To license a recorded song, for example, both the owner of the song's publishing and the owner of the recording must be contacted in order to have a proper license.

However, a song can be licensed without the recording if someone wants to do a cover. Not the other way around, the recording can't be licensed without the song.

When it comes to photographs and films, other rules get piled on: If there's a person in the film or photograph, there are rules relating to the permission to use the photograph and the likeness of the person that have to be followed, but that's not part of copyright, it's about rights of publicity and privacy. Permission from venues is also often required to use a photograph or film.

I'm barely scratching the surface. There are plenty of wormholes and hidden trap doors.

There are times I wish I didn't even know this stuff, because it can get pretty dull! ;)
 
You're probably right as well. I have allowed that just because they didn't sing or play, doesn't mean they can't. But I probably assume a lot of them can't or they would. So, if I'm wrong on that, I'm wrong, but based it on what I heard or saw. Opinions change as more facts are provided.


Change comes from within. ;)

I'm not a huge hip-hop fan, but in the 90s I saw Guru's Jazzmatazz live...that was some damn fine musicianship.
 
Good fix. And for cryin' out loud, if they're going to using backing tracks, make Vince sound good. Cuz his vox are awful
Well... I mean if we're talking about tracks for "support..." of the band... his vocals were always a bit on the pitchy side. Sometimes... more than a bit. So maybe they're trying to be true to the original. :D
 
Wow, this is a roller coaster of a thread! Here are the screams of my second ride (though I have screamed plenty in watching others ride this thread)!!

I think one of the problems here, in both the original question and other questions posed since, is definitions. That is why prior to making my arguments earlier in this thread, I stated my definitions.

I believe AI is anything that takes over what a human used to do. That includes CNC machines and processes of manufacturing automation. Is it advanced AI that takes actions on it's own without instruction, no, and if that is how you want to define AI, so be it. That then however, does not make the current image generation stuff true AI by your standards then, as it needs instructions to produce something. But IMO and by the definitions that I produced earlier, all of those things are AI in my world.

Now the music world. In this world, there are instruments, musicians and composers (I am going to lump producers and engineers into the composer category because they are composing how the musicians elements are presented). Does a composer need to be a musician to compose music? Does a musician need to be a composer to play music? I would issue a resounding no to both questions. Then we also have the question of "what is a musician". Well if that definition is, they must be able to sing in tune, not just recite lyrics to a beat and with interesting inflection, then many hip hop and rap stars may not be musicians under such a definition. I personally think that this is a musical talent. It may not be a "singing" talent, but as László pointed out, the lyrical flow of the ancient Greeks in their plays and poetry to the lyre were considered by many to be music. Ever heard of Patter? Same deal, and I would say one of the original forms of rap music. Lou Reed was sometimes referred to as "the original rapper", so was his speaking of lyrics not musical? I think they were, but YMMV.

I have been listening to Rap music, and it's latter offspring Hip Hop since 1980 (I am not really that old, just making sh!t up, local college radio station had a 3 hour segment once a week and that is how I heard it) before most of the country or world even knew what that music format was. To this day "New York New York" is my favorite rap song ever. Listen to that song. Listen to "The Message" by the same group. And next time you hear the song "White Lines" by them, think about what it is REALLY saying - "Don't do it". In other words DON'T do cocaine. But so many used that song as a sound track while snorting their lives away because they did not listen. A lot happened in that genre that led it down a path that many people hate. The gangsta rap with F the po po and b!tches ain't sh!t but ho's and tricks, pop a cap in that other human, etc. created a reason for people to hate it, and so many did (while others embraced it based on said messages). But none of that made it anything other than music IMO. It is music, like it or not, and regardless of whether that person can sing or sing in tune and everyone who appears on said compositions is a musician. I may not think they are a good musician, but musicians none the less IMO. If a singer is singing out of tune, are they still a musician by singing, or are you only a musician when you can sing in tune? Perry Farrel (Janes Addiction, Porno For Pyros) had a method from what I understand of deliberately singing a half tone beneath what the band was playing to add tension. Did that mean he was not a musician? Or is it because he chose to do it intentionally that he is now a genius musician? Ripped jeans cost more in the store than when they are that way from being worn!!!

AI is here to stay and has been IMO and definition, since the beginning of the industrial revolution or, if you go back to my original post in this thread, from the moment we used anything outside of our mind and body to produce anything. But at this time, it definitely needs to be checked for a number of reasons, the most important of which is IMO, corporations/governments strangling even tighter, the throats of the common man and his survival. How that is done and where the lines are drawn is beyond my pay grade. In the meantime, I will take advantage of it where I see fit (no harm no foul, right), and at the moment that is in the generation of artwork for my musical compositions and productions (for which I would not have hired an artist but would instead have spent hours/days producing such art which I can not do in minutes).

If a company is able to build a guitar that plays more perfect than any guitar you have ever touched, is always in tune, looks as good or better than any PS that you have ever seen, can be made to your exact specs and uses AI to produce this instrument, are you in?
 
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So, back to topic: AI generated music... is it live? or is it Memorex?
I'm having a hard time deciding, but I have to admit, I also know very little about how it's done, what the creative input is, etc.

Right now, from the little I know, it seems to lean toward Memorex. But that may or may not be so.

I do think people are going to circle back to human beings playing instruments, whether that's out of nostalgia, or maybe 'real' truly sounds better, and/or is more entertaining to see and hear performed.

Am I concerned about the creative aspects? You bet. I wish I knew more about it.

I've been spending my free time both writing orchestral music, and working again with music involving guitars and piano.

One only has so much time left to spend on creative endeavors before it's time to give up the ghost and find one's self deader'n a nail! ;)
 
One thing I'd like to mention:

Music is an art form. To a degree, there is an intersection between the art and the world of commerce. But making art has really nothing to do with money, money's a by-product of doing it to a certain level and finding an audience for it.

We in our society tend to conflate musical and artistic success with financial reward, but logically, one might imagine scenarios where one has nothing to do with the other; for example, if society accepted not paying anyone to make art, or paying everyone who makes art, either case eliminating the money from the equation.

When I got into the art of making music professionally, I had a three kids, a pretty nice lawyer's house, and expenses. I needed to make a buck. At 39 I wasn't going to be a rock star, and ad music beckoned.

For me, then, there has been that constant intersection of art and commerce. I'm not sure whether I'd have been better off being serious about music back when I was very young and money didn't matter. Sometimes I think so, and sometimes I think that my kids appreciated being put through college!

Truth is, I've thought about this a lot, and I'm leaning toward the conclusion that I screwed up by not going into the pure arts without the commerce. My brother did, paid his dues, learned to master his craft, and he's a highly respected artist.

I'm just some dweeb who does ad music, and writes orchestral stuff on the side that no one gives a rat's ass about. If I had it to do over again, would I make the same choices? I dunno. Can't turn back the clock!
 
One thing I'd like to mention:

Music is an art form. To a degree, there is an intersection between the art and the world of commerce. But making art has really nothing to do with money, money's a by-product of doing it to a certain level and finding an audience for it.

We in our society tend to conflate musical and artistic success with financial reward, but logically, one might imagine scenarios where one has nothing to do with the other; for example, if society accepted not paying anyone to make art, or paying everyone who makes art, either case eliminating the money from the equation.

When I got into the art of making music professionally, I had a three kids, a pretty nice lawyer's house, and expenses. I needed to make a buck. At 39 I wasn't going to be a rock star, and ad music beckoned.

For me, then, there has been that constant intersection of art and commerce. I'm not sure whether I'd have been better off being serious about music back when I was very young and money didn't matter. Sometimes I think so, and sometimes I think that my kids appreciated being put through college!

Truth is, I've thought about this a lot, and I'm leaning toward the conclusion that I screwed up by not going into the pure arts without the commerce. My brother did, paid his dues, learned to master his craft, and he's a highly respected artist.

I'm just some dweeb who does ad music, and writes orchestral stuff on the side. Might have been a bit of a waste.
Without really knowing you, I think the path you took was better. At 39 you had enough life experience to choose a segment of the music business that you could be successful in. 15 or 20 years earlier it probably would have been much harder to find that balance - much more tempting to go for the gold, which requires more than skills, talent and hard work.

Peripherally related: I think that visual artists can be financially successful with a much smaller audience than musicians can. I don’t think that was the case a couple hundred years ago.
 
One thing I'd like to mention:

Music is an art form. To a degree, there is an intersection between the art and the world of commerce. But making art has really nothing to do with money, money's a by-product of doing it to a certain level and finding an audience for it.

We in our society tend to conflate musical and artistic success with financial reward, but logically, one might imagine scenarios where one has nothing to do with the other; for example, if society accepted not paying anyone to make art, or paying everyone who makes art, either case eliminating the money from the equation.

When I got into the art of making music professionally, I had a three kids, a pretty nice lawyer's house, and expenses. I needed to make a buck. At 39 I wasn't going to be a rock star, and ad music beckoned.

For me, then, there has been that constant intersection of art and commerce. I'm not sure whether I'd have been better off being serious about music back when I was very young and money didn't matter. Sometimes I think so, and sometimes I think that my kids appreciated being put through college!

Truth is, I've thought about this a lot, and I'm leaning toward the conclusion that I screwed up by not going into the pure arts without the commerce. My brother did, paid his dues, learned to master his craft, and he's a highly respected artist.

I'm just some dweeb who does ad music, and writes orchestral stuff on the side that no one gives a rat's ass about. If I had it to do over again, would I make the same choices? I dunno. Can't turn back the clock!
I’m the Willy Loman of guitar players, so it may not mean much but.. I think you done good.
 
Without really knowing you, I think the path you took was better. At 39 you had enough life experience to choose a segment of the music business that you could be successful in. 15 or 20 years earlier it probably would have been much harder to find that balance - much more tempting to go for the gold, which requires more than skills, talent and hard work.

Peripherally related: I think that visual artists can be financially successful with a much smaller audience than musicians can. I don’t think that was the case a couple hundred years ago.
Good points!

Yeah, no one's gonna pay 6 or 7 figure money for a CD or an mp3. :)
 
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