I'm No Luddite! But I Have...Artistic Concerns...

[sergiodeblanc]

I am not sure any of us realized he was getting to that level.

He does it every year, only this year he deleted his profile.

So in like, a couple months when we get a new member named WingerRocks! things will be back to normal.

 

[Troubador222]

You and I agree. I do electronica quite often.

My son, a Fender endorser, has a degree in music from University of Michigan. He's a fantastic songwriter and performer, has 3 gold records as a producer, engineer and musician, and loves to use Ableton Live to create and arrange certain styles of music. He's toured with famous bands. Blah blah blah dad brag, etc.

Some would insist he's not a musician?

They'd be nuts.

Admittedly almost all of the people who think Electronica is not music that I know, are my age, (60ish) or older. I was mentored by people half my age 18 years ago, when I started learning to do it. Most of those folks are hitting their 40s now, at the same age I was when I started. Most of them still make Electronica and at least one of them is a major producer in the UK. I believe he does soundtrack work.

I come from a background of playing and composing Americana based music, playing mostly acoustic guitar. When I joined a music sharing site in the early 2000s, I started communicating with all these younger people in the forum whose main interest was in Electronica. Quite a few of them were from Europe. They really broadened my perspective of what is possible as a musical instrument. I will be forever grateful for that. It's led to me having a bunch of fun doing it!

And yes I know you make Electronica. I have one of your albums. I listen to it in my playlist for when I am on the road in my truck.

 

[László]

Admittedly almost all of the people who think Electronica is not music that I know, are my age, (60ish) or older. I was mentored by people half my age 18 years ago, when I started learning to do it. Most of those folks are hitting their 40s now, at the same age I was when I started. Most of them still make Electronica and at least one of them is a major producer in the UK. I believe he does soundtrack work.

I come from a background of playing and composing Americana based music, playing mostly acoustic guitar. When I joined a music sharing site in the early 2000s, I started communicating with all these younger people in the forum whose main interest was in Electronica. Quite a few of them were from Europe. They really broadened my perspective of what is possible as a musical instrument. I will be forever grateful for that. It's led to me having a bunch of fun doing it!

And yes I know you make Electronica. I have one of your albums. I listen to it in my playlist for when I am on the road in my truck.

Holy moly I didn't realize (or maybe didn't remember) you have it!

Spotify and Apple tell me it has listeners all over the world, but unfortunately, there aren't enough of 'em to make it a hit. Oh well, I just wanted to get it out there. Shoulda woulda coulda promoted it...

Still, it's pretty amazing when people listen to your stuff, as you know. Thank you!

 

[RC Mike]

This thread has taken some turns.

I started wondering to myself about how AI-generated music might become popular, or at least impersonate conventional popular music. Would we even know how the music is being created?

Thinking about some of the larger issues, nothing about this seems particularly surprising or shocking. Since the beginning of music notation, perhaps this is inevitable?

We went from live music that had to be taught or at least mimicked to be passed on from the performer to a system of written music. With recordings, live music could be captured. With tape, splicing and multi-track recording made studio music different than live music. With tracks, studio music can be duplicated "live," with the obvious caveats.

Does the larger public care anymore if "live" isn't live? I'd argue not. The trope of "real music, played by real musicians" is catchy to say, but the proof is in the ticket sales. So the next step is music that isn't composed by live musicians.

What really changes, other than session musicians and touring sidemen become an endangered species? Is it that what is presented on a stage moves beyond the farce of Motley Crue, into a reality that we openly acknowledge?

In the end, the illusion of a band writing their own music and performing it will disappear, but isn't that a reality now for many acts? Little of what I've said speaks directly to the composition of the music, but if that's the last remaining part of modern music that is "authentic," then what's the real difference?

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I guess there’s already an AI generated Drake and The Weeknd track blowing up on the Tik Tok.

 

[ViperDoc]

A.I. in general is seriously scary. I'm against it entirely. Case in point: check out the Joe Rogan A.I. Podcast interview with Donald Trump (it's a fake interview entirely created by A.I. technology). If you didn't know it, you'd think it was a legit conversation between Joe and the Donald. A.I. has the capacity to create anything it "wants", but what the f6ck is that, really? No one knows. The Google CEO couldn't explain how his own A.I. tech taught itself an entirely new language. They can't control their own sh!t? So how are you/I/we supposed to know what is real in the digital communication space anymore? Maybe we're already listening to it. It's scary, man. I say throw it all in the trash and accept humanity for all its beautiful strengths and weaknesses. To hell with fake digital sh!t.

 

[tbp0701]

I haven't been on the forum nor seen this thread in a few days, and, well, yow.

For whatever it's worth, a number of years ago I decided to avoid adding negativity to the internet. I also think it's helped me in day to day life, as if not careful I can be cynical, dark, and sarcastic, which is no fun to be around. That's not to say I let BS go. And I feel a lot of things need serious discussion, but I try to find diplomatic, understanding ways to go about it. Increasingly, however, such an approach is more difficult. And, sadly, I find myself essentially writing people off. It's an attitude I don't like and hope to somehow address.

As for music and AI, I probably mentioned this before (maybe in this thread), but I was a music major in the mid to late 1980s, and regularly heard that my instruments (woodwinds) like all other wind/orchestral/acoustic instruments would soon be obsolete. That, of course, didn't happen. (The saxophone's decline from popularity likely came more from cheesy overuse in the 80s than any electronic device).

And there were some who hated the idea of midi, especially keyboards, and anything with drum machines and synths was an abomination. But musicians kept creating emotionally impactful music with them. Herbie Hancock is an example.

But of course, electronic instruments were and are still being used by humans, so I don't know what the AI impact will be (other than conglomerations of art that has already been created), but I'm still optimistic that human creativity will continue.

 

[alantig]

So how are you/I/we supposed to know what is real in the digital communication space anymore? Maybe we're already listening to it. It's scary, man. I say throw it all in the trash and accept humanity for all its beautiful strengths and weaknesses. To hell with fake digital sh!t.

About 20 years or so ago, when my buddy and I first got started doing more photo editing, he thought it would be cool to cut and paste his daughter's picture to put her on stage with Michael Hedges. He thought it was pretty cool - then his daughter walked in, looked at it and said, "That's really cool. When did I do that? I wish I remembered it." He said that totally killed it for him.

Going old-school, another guy and I pranked this same guy at work. He had a picture of himself with Mario Lemieux. We made a mustache out of a post-it note and put it on the frame in front of the picture. He came in, saw the mustache on the picture and freaked out. Slammed the door. Paced around his office. Came out and cursed us up and down. "You do realize I don't have the negative, right? Someone sent that to me. I can't get it reprinted." We let him go on for a while, and I finally said, "You did check to see that it's not just something stuck to the frame, right?"

 

[tbp0701]

About 20 years or so ago, when my buddy and I first got started doing more photo editing, he thought it would be cool to cut and paste his daughter's picture to put her on stage with Michael Hedges. He thought it was pretty cool - then his daughter walked in, looked at it and said, "That's really cool. When did I do that? I wish I remembered it." He said that totally killed it for him.

Going old-school, another guy and I pranked this same guy at work. He had a picture of himself with Mario Lemieux. We made a mustache out of a post-it note and put it on the frame in front of the picture. He came in, saw the mustache on the picture and freaked out. Slammed the door. Paced around his office. Came out and cursed us up and down. "You do realize I don't have the negative, right? Someone sent that to me. I can't get it reprinted." We let him go on for a while, and I finally said, "You did check to see that it's not just something stuck to the frame, right?"

That reminded me of an older TV ad (maybe for a printer?) of a guy who had decorated with faked photos of him next to celebrities and historical figures. I think the premise was a date looking at all the photos, at first believing them real, then seeing the guy's face on Mt. Rushmore.

 

[dmatthews]

A.I. in general is seriously scary. I'm against it entirely. Case in point: check out the Joe Rogan A.I. Podcast interview with Donald Trump (it's a fake interview entirely created by A.I. technology). If you didn't know it, you'd think it was a legit conversation between Joe and the Donald. A.I. has the capacity to create anything it "wants", but what the f6ck is that, really? No one knows. The Google CEO couldn't explain how his own A.I. tech taught itself an entirely new language. They can't control their own sh!t? So how are you/I/we supposed to know what is real in the digital communication space anymore? Maybe we're already listening to it. It's scary, man. I say throw it all in the trash and accept humanity for all its beautiful strengths and weaknesses. To hell with fake digital sh!t.

Hey wait a minute...
How do I know it was really you that typed that?
Hey wait a minute...
How do I know I'm really typing this?



AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!!!!

 

[ViperDoc]

Hey wait a minute...
How do I know it was really you that typed that?
Hey wait a minute...
How do I know I'm really typing this?



AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!!!!

EXACTLY. LO HELL.

 

[Rhythmisking]

I understand no one likes to feel they're being lied to, it's easier than ever to realize that the things you see and hear may or may not be 'authentic', whether it's fake photos, fake news or fake music. But at the end of the day, even though I know it's all causing a lot of frustration, I have to feel that all of this is only the beginning of a sort of societal maturation process as human beings.

We have to be responsible for our own reactions and behaviors, and be our own masters of our place in the world. None of these changes we're seeing and hearing absolve us of the responsibility of being decent people. Or deciding for ourselves the what we like and don't like really only matters to us, and that our online comments, yelp reviews, or listening preferences aren't as significant as we'd like them to be.

I gave up the idea of being a professional musician a long time ago, even though as a young person that was all I wanted. Life took me in a different direction, and while I could rail at the unfairness of things that happened, it also allowed me to be the sort of musician that wanted to be, rather than the one I would have needed to be. I'm not only fine with that, I actually feel sort of blessed.

I will always want to create and make the sort of music I enjoy, and seek out live music that excites me; neither of those dwell in the realm of mass-market commercial music. I can like what I like, and pay attention to that, feed that. In the face of all the changes that 'commercial music' always goes through (and now AI music is a part of that), I really just don't care, because for most of my adult life I haven't had to worry about that. I know that is different for others, especially those making a living from music, so their concerns are real for them. But I don't have worry about AI music any more than I have to worry about photo-shopped pictures or fake news, because I like what I like and still get to choose what I do. Real life doesn't come through a screen for me.

I'm currently on vacation in Paris, and compared to my home town of San Francisco, the live jazz scene here is un-f-ing-believable. There are many jazz clubs with live music doing two or three sets a night every single night of the week -four or five with a two minute walk from where I'm staying! Phenomenal local musicians. Amazing stuff. Huge variety of music. Packed rooms at 11:00 p.m. on a Tuesday...wtf...

None of it, whether bands doing 'standards', or edgy new stuff, is commercial or 'popular' in a mass market sense, but damn is it ever good.
I'm not worried about AI, or midi, photoshop or fake news changing any of this.

 

[László]

I will always want to create and make the sort of music I enjoy, and seek out live music that excites me; neither of those dwell in the realm of mass-market commercial music. I can like what I like, and pay attention to that, feed that. In the face of all the changes that 'commercial music' always goes through (and now AI music is a part of that), I really just don't care, because for most of my adult life I haven't had to worry about that. I know that is different for others, especially those making a living from music, so their concerns are real for them. But I don't have worry about AI music any more than I have to worry about photo-shopped pictures or fake news, because I like what I like and still get to choose what I do. Real life doesn't come through a screen for me.

I'm currently on vacation in Paris, and compared to my home town of San Francisco, the live jazz scene here is un-f-ing-believable. There are many jazz clubs with live music doing two or three sets a night every single night of the week -four or five with a two minute walk from where I'm staying! Phenomenal local musicians. Amazing stuff. Huge variety of music. Packed rooms at 11:00 p.m. on a Tuesday...wtf...

None of it, whether bands doing 'standards', or edgy new stuff, is commercial or 'popular' in a mass market sense, but damn is it ever good.
I'm not worried about AI, or midi, photoshop or fake news changing any of this.

Good points!

I make my living writing, producing, and playing music on recordings. I've been doing it for 32 years. Most have been ads. There have been TV documentaries and indie films. Anyway, I've written a ton of music.

I practiced law before going into the music biz. Yes, of course I was completely insane to become a composer. I did it anyway. Not for the money, though it's been a good career. I simply feel fulfilled expressing myself in music. I like thinking, I like working hard, and I like creating. I also love audio. So I like mixing, mastering and all the other stuff that goes along with music production.

To keep my chops up, for the past few years, I've been writing and recording orchestral music. I make no money with it. I just do it because I feel I need to. I write constantly. I like being proud of my work, money or no money.

At this point, I think most of it is pretty good. I'm learning things, even in my advanced state of ancient-ness (I know, there's no such word, but I'm not writing this with AI, and I'm allowing myself creative license!). Maybe I should make up an entire language that AI doesn't know.

After thinking about all this, and especially after reading Rhythmking's post, I realized that I have no fear at all of AI-generated music, because it won't stop me from expressing myself creatively.

All I can control is what I do. I can't control anything else. I can't control how people respond to the work.

I'm not making music by generating AI. I have no interest in doing so. If a client called and said, "Help us create an AI ad track," I'd decline the opportunity. It's not my thing.

If people are happy with music that wasn't the product of someone's creativity, blood, sweat and tears, there isn't anything I can do about it. I'm still going to do what I do.

Back in college, when things turned hippie, one of my friends had a sweatshirt that said, "F#ck The World". I don't know if he was making a personal statement, or just thought it was cool to wear a thing with 'f#ck' on it back in the day when people didn't do that, but the sweatshirt had the right idea!

BTW, I've worked on projects in Paris, at a wonderful studio called plus XXX (think 'plus 30', the owner created the first console with 30 db of headroom on the summing bus). I believe he retired and sold it 15 years ago.

I loved working there. It's a wonderful city for music.

 

[JasonE]

A.I. in general is seriously scary. I'm against it entirely. Case in point: check out the Joe Rogan A.I. Podcast interview with Donald Trump (it's a fake interview entirely created by A.I. technology). If you didn't know it, you'd think it was a legit conversation between Joe and the Donald. A.I. has the capacity to create anything it "wants", but what the f6ck is that, really? No one knows. The Google CEO couldn't explain how his own A.I. tech taught itself an entirely new language. They can't control their own sh!t? So how are you/I/we supposed to know what is real in the digital communication space anymore? Maybe we're already listening to it. It's scary, man. I say throw it all in the trash and accept humanity for all its beautiful strengths and weaknesses. To hell with fake digital sh!t.

Exactly how I feel about it.

 

[JasonE]

Good points!

I make my living writing, producing, and playing music on recordings. I've been doing it for 32 years. Most have been ads. There have been TV documentaries and indie films. Anyway, I've written a ton of music.

I practiced law before going into the music biz. Yes, of course I was completely insane to become a composer. I did it anyway. Not for the money, though it's been a good career. I simply feel fulfilled expressing myself in music. I like thinking, I like working hard, and I like creating. I also love audio. So I like mixing, mastering and all the other stuff that goes along with music production.

To keep my chops up, for the past few years, I've been writing and recording orchestral music. I make no money with it. I just do it because I feel I need to. I write constantly. I like being proud of my work, money or no money.

At this point, I think most of it is pretty good. I'm learning things, even in my advanced state of ancient-ness (I know, there's no such word, but I'm not writing this with AI, and I'm allowing myself creative license!). Maybe I should make up an entire language that AI doesn't know.

After thinking about all this, and especially after reading Rhythmking's post, I realized that I have no fear at all of AI-generated music, because it won't stop me from expressing myself creatively.

All I can control is what I do. I can't control anything else. I can't control how people respond to the work.

I'm not making music by generating AI. I have no interest in doing so. If a client called and said, "Help us create an AI ad track," I'd decline the opportunity. It's not my thing.

If people are happy with music that wasn't the product of someone's creativity, blood, sweat and tears, there isn't anything I can do about it. I'm still going to do what I do.

Back in college, when things turned hippie, one of my friends had a sweatshirt that said, "F#ck The World". I don't know if he was making a personal statement, or just thought it was cool to wear a thing with 'f#ck' on it back in the day when people didn't do that, but the sweatshirt had the right idea!

BTW, I've worked on projects in Paris, at a wonderful studio called plus XXX (think 'plus 30', the owner created the first console with 30 db of headroom on the summing bus). I believe he retired and sold it 15 years ago.

I loved working there. It's a wonderful city for music.

I think the fear most people have is the financial impact. If I didn't have to have a steady income to live and pay my bills, I would definitely work on music daily and make that my focus. I have said many times that if I were to become independently wealthy somehow that I would either buy a bigger house and build a nice studio in it where I could work on music and invite others over to do the same. At this point in life it is a pipe dream. Unfortunately, I can't see myself making enough money with it to live off of, let alone have the things I have now.

 

[László]

I think the fear most people have is the financial impact. If I didn't have to have a steady income to live and pay my bills, I would definitely work on music daily and make that my focus. I have said many times that if I were to become independently wealthy somehow that I would either buy a bigger house and build a nice studio in it where I could work on music and invite others over to do the same. At this point in life it is a pipe dream. Unfortunately, I can't see myself making enough money with it to live off of, let alone have the things I have now.

I'll be the first to admit that my career has been the product of blind overconfidence and sheer luck.

I was still relatively young, and had started a law firm that did well. But I wasn't fulfilled. I figured if I could build a law firm, which wasn't easy, why couldn't I do the same in music production?

I knew that Detroit was swarming with production companies of all types supplying the ad industry, especially the car companies, who generally had excellent ad budgets. They needed music for ads. I could do that.

There was opportunity. I seized it. It worked out.

Today there's opportunity, but it's different opportunity. One of my best friends in the production biz and I sometimes laugh and say, "The music business should never be called a business."

 

[JasonE]

I'll be the first to admit that my career has been the product of blind overconfidence and sheer luck.

I was still relatively young, and had started a law firm that did well. But I wasn't fulfilled. I figured if I could build a law firm, which wasn't easy, why couldn't I do the same in music production?

I knew that Detroit was swarming with production companies of all types supplying the ad industry, especially the car companies, who generally had excellent ad budgets. They needed music for ads. I could do that.

There was opportunity. I seized it. It worked out.

Today there's opportunity, but it's different opportunity. One of my best friends in the production biz and I sometimes laugh and say, "The music business should never be called a business."

I have been looking for some of those opportunities for a while now and have not really found any. The only ones I keep finding are either playing an a cover band in bars or running sound for them. Neither pays well and keeps me up late at night which makes getting up in the morning for my day job a struggle.

 

[László]

I have been looking for some of those opportunities for a while now and have not really found any. The only ones I keep finding are either playing an a cover band in bars or running sound for them. Neither pays well and keeps me up late at night which makes getting up in the morning for my day job a struggle.

It's not easy to find the right fit, or even something close to a fit!