An Awesome Modeler Would Be...

[László]

That’s like, one of the few bass amps worthy of drooling over (even with the McCartney connection). I had really thought of buying one in the 90’s when I was making money as a touring bass player, but got the SWR SM400(?) instead.

Man, could you imagine playing some Gap Band Minimoog bass lines through that?!?! You could probably kill squirrels with it.

It was corpulent with analog synths, indeed.

I loved it, though retubing it was crazy expensive!

 

[sergiodeblanc]

It was corpulent with analog synths, indeed.

I loved it, though retubing it was crazy expensive!

Same thing with my Strategy 500, I remember that thing coming with a re-tubing credit on a blue card from Mesa.

By the time I retubed that thing the fourth time I moved it and got the 50/50.... which in all reality was better suited for me since I couldn’t even turn that up past 4.... on the 17watt setting.

 

[dmatthews]

Yeah, but what does he know?

For a tour, the cartage cost of shlepping a bunch of amps in road cases is just nuts - heavy five figures for most bands - and it’s no wonder he uses a Kemper live. I would, too. It also probably makes switching to the different amp tones much easier on the techs.

He did record the new album with his various tube amps, however; as I understand it, they were profiled at his settings for each amp/song.

I’ve heard some clips of the tour in Italy, and the guitar sounds are good.

Bwahahahahaha!!!
Yup... not sure how many hours over the 6 month time span were spent, but the tech must have created hundreds of profiles to make it "just so" for MK.

 

[CandidPicker]

No, not really. There are plenty of amps that did a thing quite excellently, but not one that did everything. That’s probably why I held on to my rack gear for twenty years.

Yup. I used to think I'd be a millionaire if I held onto all my gear. Um, in reality, I was content with my apartment, eating 3 squares, my clothes, and having enough heat during colder nights.

My gear would come and go, and I don't think I ever settled on one "grail" amp. Also, paying the bills was something that took priority, so it was necessary to consider this before buying more gear.

My only amp today is my Brunetti 35W Combo. While it's not a dual or triple channel amp, the amp takes pedals quite well and has all the qualities I'd ever seek in an amp. For folks who prefer a variety of tones and sounds, no one can tell you exactly what will fulfill your need, we can only listen to what others' experiences have been, and base our own choices from that.

Sometimes you receive good advice, other times, it's the rabbit hole. Off the top of my head, I don't recall one previous amp myself that was THE amp. Just what I hold dear currently.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Off the top of my head, I don't recall one previous amp myself that was THE amp. Just what I hold dear currently.

Yeah, my DG30 is perfect for what I’m doing now, but if I joined a different band tomorrow... who knows?

 

[CandidPicker]

Yeah, my DG30 is perfect for what I’m doing now, but if I joined a different band tomorrow... who knows?

Good point. Whatever you need for your work. I'd hate to think you could get closer to your "ideal" amp without moving some gear out. My mindset was the same, but my goals were skewed. Always had to follow the one-in-one-out rule. Not the "how much more can I acquire and find storage for" mindset.

 

[Mozzi]

I totally understand why some would want a Helix (or some other all in one device) instead of having 20+ amps for guitar, bass - inc Acoustic and keyboard options and even a Mic or a singer songwriter. Understand why they want 100 or so different pedals - even using more 1 of the same pedal to have different settings or position without having to buy 2 (or more). Totally get why this 'little' (compared to some Pedal boards - let alone amps, cabs and mics) can be such a great tool to some guitarists. Whether that is a bedroom only, a youtuber etc or someone who is constantly on the road gigging and anywhere in between those type of players, these are tools and whilst they may not compete exactly with the Amp, Cab, mic and pedal board when A/B'd or even in the 'feel' to the player, they are not so far behind that they are 'toys' for those beginners or guitarists on a budget, can't afford the multitude of separate pedals - let alone a Mark V Mesa-Boogie, JCM800, Fender Bluesbreaker or Orange Rockerverb - whether that's combo's or heads and cabinets as well as the mic's too. Nowadays, these devices are making it on Professional players rig and in some cases replacing a LOT, if not all their backline.

That doesn't mean that they can measure up exactly or that guitarists should drop the 'old' valve technology, certainly not saying that people should buy a Helix and sell their pedals and amps - even if some have gone that far. As these are 'tools' for the musician, its up to them if they wish to use Digital for any part of their Rig - even all of it for certain situations. It doesn't make them a lesser musician because they are not using Analogue and Valves. Metallica are no worse for opting to use Axe-FX these days - Vai uses Axe-FX too in part of his rig even if that is just for FX or just part of his 'tour' set-up and opts to use Pedals in the studio/home.

Whether these tools are 'exactly' like playing through a traditional rig with Valves or not, doesn't make them a bad choice or the user a lesser guitarist. Its about having the right tools for that musician and their needs. If that means the Amp/Cab/Mic is all in a Kemper or a real valve amp head with a cab and a mic in front of it, so be it - its what best suits the musician and which tool serves their needs best. You may not like everything a Helix offers and prefer to put a Stryman Volante in the loop for example maybe like the pre-amp and put that into an Orange Pedalbaby for the power amp part. Point is, they are a viable option, a viable tool for the musician to use (or not) rather than being a gimmick or something for the beginner. If someone, Like Les for example, prefers all the traditional tools he has are best suited to him and his needs, then that should be equally as acceptable for someone who uses a Helix for their entire rig because that suits them and their needs best. That's the two extremes where its either one or the other but there is still nothing wrong with having both options and using what best suits them at that time.

I don't see it as being different to using a Katana or Yamaha THR10 for home use, using the built in FX because its easier than getting out your large pedal board and then taking a Valve Amp and your pedalboard to rehearsal/gigs - its about having the 'right' or most appropriate tool to use for that musician at that point in time. Its not appropriate to use my Marshall JVM410 100w all Valve combo at home but a Helix direct into a PC with monitor speakers or maybe a Katana that sits on a shelf is the most appropriate or best tool in that situation.

 

[CandidPicker]

I totally understand why some would want a Helix (or some other all in one device) instead of having 20+ amps for guitar, bass - inc Acoustic and keyboard options and even a Mic or a singer songwriter. Understand why they want 100 or so different pedals - even using more 1 of the same pedal to have different settings or position without having to buy 2 (or more). Totally get why this 'little' (compared to some Pedal boards - let alone amps, cabs and mics) can be such a great tool to some guitarists. Whether that is a bedroom only, a youtuber etc or someone who is constantly on the road gigging and anywhere in between those type of players, these are tools and whilst they may not compete exactly with the Amp, Cab, mic and pedal board when A/B'd or even in the 'feel' to the player, they are not so far behind that they are 'toys' for those beginners or guitarists on a budget, can't afford the multitude of separate pedals - let alone a Mark V Mesa-Boogie, JCM800, Fender Bluesbreaker or Orange Rockerverb - whether that's combo's or heads and cabinets as well as the mic's too. Nowadays, these devices are making it on Professional players rig and in some cases replacing a LOT, if not all their backline.

That doesn't mean that they can measure up exactly or that guitarists should drop the 'old' valve technology, certainly not saying that people should buy a Helix and sell their pedals and amps - even if some have gone that far. As these are 'tools' for the musician, its up to them if they wish to use Digital for any part of their Rig - even all of it for certain situations. It doesn't make them a lesser musician because they are not using Analogue and Valves. Metallica are no worse for opting to use Axe-FX these days - Vai uses Axe-FX too in part of his rig even if that is just for FX or just part of his 'tour' set-up and opts to use Pedals in the studio/home.

Whether these tools are 'exactly' like playing through a traditional rig with Valves or not, doesn't make them a bad choice or the user a lesser guitarist. Its about having the right tools for that musician and their needs. If that means the Amp/Cab/Mic is all in a Kemper or a real valve amp head with a cab and a mic in front of it, so be it - its what best suits the musician and which tool serves their needs best. You may not like everything a Helix offers and prefer to put a Stryman Volante in the loop for example maybe like the pre-amp and put that into an Orange Pedalbaby for the power amp part. Point is, they are a viable option, a viable tool for the musician to use (or not) rather than being a gimmick or something for the beginner. If someone, Like Les for example, prefers all the traditional tools he has are best suited to him and his needs, then that should be equally as acceptable for someone who uses a Helix for their entire rig because that suits them and their needs best. That's the two extremes where its either one or the other but there is still nothing wrong with having both options and using what best suits them at that time.

I don't see it as being different to using a Katana or Yamaha THR10 for home use, using the built in FX because its easier than getting out your large pedal board and then taking a Valve Amp and your pedalboard to rehearsal/gigs - its about having the 'right' or most appropriate tool to use for that musician at that point in time. Its not appropriate to use my Marshall JVM410 100w all Valve combo at home but a Helix direct into a PC with monitor speakers or maybe a Katana that sits on a shelf is the most appropriate or best tool in that situation.

This is all correct, but subjective. I think that you use tools for building things, whether it's something constructed to withstand the elements, etc. The problem exists that when something isn't well-constructed, it could fail terribly.

That being said, we each strive to own what is more important to us, whether that be a nice dwelling, a nice vehicle, or nice instruments and things that allow us to be heard over a crowd.

All the trivial bits and pieces of brand names, parts, and tone quest are the aspects of being a discerning listener who can hear the differences in what our instruments are saying...perhaps the most important part of being a appreciably well-trained guitarist is having ears that helps us discern all of these differences, subjective, or not. What we hear is what determines how we make our individual tones that we like, and I think this is what you were saying when mentioning how each of us chooses one brand, constructed material or part over another.

 

[Mozzi]

This is all correct, but subjective. I think that you use tools for building things, whether it's something constructed to withstand the elements, etc. The problem exists that when something isn't well-constructed, it could fail terribly.

That being said, we each strive to own what is more important to us, whether that be a nice dwelling, a nice vehicle, or nice instruments and things that allow us to be heard over a crowd.

All the trivial bits and pieces of brand names, parts, and tone quest are the aspects of being a discerning listener who can hear the differences in what our instruments are saying...perhaps the most important part of being a appreciably well-trained guitarist is having ears that helps us discern all of these differences, subjective, or not. What we hear is what determines how we make our individual tones that we like, and I think this is what you were saying when mentioning how each of us chooses one brand, constructed material or part over another.

A digital device is a tool that you use to build and eventually hear the tone you are looking for. The Guitar is the tool that you use to create the music but the rest of the devices after this is to build and hear what you want your guitar to sound like. The whole signal path is building and shaping the way that you want the sound to be heard. Its like an Artist that uses the tools they have to create the final picture, mixing paints, building the tone they need from the tools (in this case the paints) where necessary to create the desired tone.

A Digital device is multiple tools all combined where as a traditional set-up has specific tools for the artist to use to shape, create and hear the voice at the end. If you want a certain distorted tone, you need a tool to take the pure tone in and give you that distorted tone out, want to boost that tone for a Solo, you need to tool to do that etc. At the end, you need a tool to amplify and a tool to hear that tone you have built up and by using the Guitar to change the sound coming out to create 'music', building a sequence of notes, chords etc into a 'song'.

Without these tools, you are limited to just the instrument which can be enough in certain cases. An acoustic jam around a campfire maybe all you need but playing in a concert hall, you may need tools to take the sound of the guitar and amplify it, make it audible to those at the back of the crowd. Even just an Electric into your favourite Valve amp may need tools to take that sound and put it through a PA to be heard by all. The speakers, whether that's just in your Amp, PA speakers placed around the hall, monitor speakers connected to your PC etc etc are still tools to make your sound audible. A Helix for example can be the tool you use to tune, shape you sound, inc the sound associated with a specific amp into a specific cab and mic'd a specific way with a specific mic rather than use 'individual' tools to do this.

If the musician isn't happy with the feel or the sound that they are getting from an all in one digital modeller, then they can use a different tool for that job. If the Helix doesn't have the looper you want, you can use a different and separate tool to give you the looper you want and that goes for any pedal - if that tool isn't the right tool to shape your sound the way you as a musician wants, then you use a different tool that does the job you want. A Modeller maybe the best tool for an artist who is travelling gig to gig into different venue types and much easier, financially better and 'good enough' that makes it a better tool than taking the more traditional tools of an Amp, Cab and Mic that are tools to amplify, hear and take that sound to the front of house. It may not be the 'best' tool for feel for example but the advantages of using that tool compared to the more traditional tools outweigh any of the disadvantages. That's just 1 example - another maybe that a Helix Stomp is better as it fits on their pedal board and integrates very well with the individual pedals they have.

Point is that these tools are available and good enough for professional musicians to use - either on its own or in conjunction with more traditional tools. Its down to the individual to decide if and where these tools can fit into their set-up. If they don't, then so be it but if they do, that is perfectly acceptable and not up to anyone to criticise or belittle the user of these tools. Even if the only time they use a Digital modeller is for the odd gig where it isn't cost effective or viable to take a Pedal board, Valve amp, Cab and mic, all the cabling too when all they need to take is a Helix in a back pack and their Guitar(s). It maybe the 'best' tool for that musician in that situation but for another, they may decide that the extra costs are worth the extra expense because the advantages to them outweigh the negatives.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Good point. Whatever you need for your work. I'd hate to think you could get closer to your "ideal" amp without moving some gear out. My mindset was the same, but my goals were skewed. Always had to follow the one-in-one-out rule. Not the "how much more can I acquire and find storage for" mindset.

Nah, I like keeping stuff as long as I can, and I try to buy things that’ll last. I’m not really into flipping gear I know I like for the next shiny thing.

 

[László]

Bwahahahahaha!!!
Yup... not sure how many hours over the 6 month time span were spent, but the tech must have created hundreds of profiles to make it "just so" for MK.

You can imagine the detailed work that went into it! I saw him interviewed at some point at what I think was his studio - I could be wrong on that - but wherever he was, it was loaded with vintage gear, including an old EMI console from Abbey Road (there are a few of them out there in various locations). He had a bunch of his guitars in the room with the mixing console. But it could just be a studio he booked.

Knopfler is such a cool, low-key guy; it seems like it’s all about his work, not a cult of personality, not a cult of being famous, etc. I really admire the dude.

I also admired Tom Petty for staying true to what he always wanted to do, and not giving in to the musical trends of the moment. Petty was a different kind of person, but seemed pretty upfront about who he really was.

 

[veinbuster]

Nah, I like keeping stuff as long as I can, and I try to buy things that’ll last. I’m not really into flipping gear I know I like for the next shiny thing.

Only buy. Don’t sell.

 

[CandidPicker]

Nah, I like keeping stuff as long as I can, and I try to buy things that’ll last. I’m not really into flipping gear I know I like for the next shiny thing.

I'd guess you also like to squeeze every last bit of toothpaste out of the tube, as well... Same here. Only thing I might consider replacing is when customer support contracts expire, or requires a fee-for-service on an increasing basis.

 

[László]

I totally understand why some would want a Helix (or some other all in one device) instead of having 20+ amps for guitar, bass - inc Acoustic and keyboard options and even a Mic or a singer songwriter. Understand why they want 100 or so different pedals - even using more 1 of the same pedal to have different settings or position without having to buy 2 (or more). Totally get why this 'little' (compared to some Pedal boards - let alone amps, cabs and mics) can be such a great tool to some guitarists. Whether that is a bedroom only, a youtuber etc or someone who is constantly on the road gigging and anywhere in between those type of players, these are tools and whilst they may not compete exactly with the Amp, Cab, mic and pedal board when A/B'd or even in the 'feel' to the player, they are not so far behind that they are 'toys' for those beginners or guitarists on a budget, can't afford the multitude of separate pedals - let alone a Mark V Mesa-Boogie, JCM800, Fender Bluesbreaker or Orange Rockerverb - whether that's combo's or heads and cabinets as well as the mic's too. Nowadays, these devices are making it on Professional players rig and in some cases replacing a LOT, if not all their backline.

That doesn't mean that they can measure up exactly or that guitarists should drop the 'old' valve technology, certainly not saying that people should buy a Helix and sell their pedals and amps - even if some have gone that far. As these are 'tools' for the musician, its up to them if they wish to use Digital for any part of their Rig - even all of it for certain situations. It doesn't make them a lesser musician because they are not using Analogue and Valves. Metallica are no worse for opting to use Axe-FX these days - Vai uses Axe-FX too in part of his rig even if that is just for FX or just part of his 'tour' set-up and opts to use Pedals in the studio/home.

Whether these tools are 'exactly' like playing through a traditional rig with Valves or not, doesn't make them a bad choice or the user a lesser guitarist. Its about having the right tools for that musician and their needs. If that means the Amp/Cab/Mic is all in a Kemper or a real valve amp head with a cab and a mic in front of it, so be it - its what best suits the musician and which tool serves their needs best. You may not like everything a Helix offers and prefer to put a Stryman Volante in the loop for example maybe like the pre-amp and put that into an Orange Pedalbaby for the power amp part. Point is, they are a viable option, a viable tool for the musician to use (or not) rather than being a gimmick or something for the beginner. If someone, Like Les for example, prefers all the traditional tools he has are best suited to him and his needs, then that should be equally as acceptable for someone who uses a Helix for their entire rig because that suits them and their needs best. That's the two extremes where its either one or the other but there is still nothing wrong with having both options and using what best suits them at that time.

I don't see it as being different to using a Katana or Yamaha THR10 for home use, using the built in FX because its easier than getting out your large pedal board and then taking a Valve Amp and your pedalboard to rehearsal/gigs - its about having the 'right' or most appropriate tool to use for that musician at that point in time. Its not appropriate to use my Marshall JVM410 100w all Valve combo at home but a Helix direct into a PC with monitor speakers or maybe a Katana that sits on a shelf is the most appropriate or best tool in that situation.

I basically agree with this. All of the little details pro and con are just that, and folks should use whatever they like for the needs of the moment/project/etc.

 

[László]

Folks have said to me, “use what you feel works and enjoy that.”

They’re right!!

Something about tube amps draws me to them. Others, well maybe it’s modelers that work for them. Or maybe it’s a hybrid situation, such as a player using tube amps to make a record, but has those amps and all their settings modeled for a tour, which incidentally I would do for financial reasons if I ever toured, and possibly for physical reasons if I played live dates locally very often, since I’m too ancient to be a roadie any more.

The reason I started this thread was to say, look, modelers could be improved a bit if they did this or that, but obviously by starting the thread, I recognize the validity of the modeling concept for lots of folks.

I like to kid around about this stuff, but in truth, what anyone else plays is their business, not mine. I’m far more accepting of modelers than most folks realize, and as I’ve always said, I’ve used both software and hardware modeling from time to time myself for a variety of purposes.

A good example is the bass amp model that I think is very good that Universal Audio did of the Ampeg B-15N. I’ve also found their Tweed Deluxe model excellent, though I wound up just getting a tweed style tube amp because that’s my honest to goodness preference.

We live in a wonderful world with lots of valid choices. That’s a good thing!

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I'd guess you also like to squeeze every last bit of toothpaste out of the tube, as well... Same here. Only thing I might consider replacing is when customer support contracts expire, or requires a fee-for-service on an increasing basis.

The truth is, I don’t like spending money. I only buy guitars so my wife can’t spend it first on stuff I think is stupid.

 

[Mozzi]

The reason I started this thread was to say, look, modelers could be improved a bit if they did this or that, but obviously by starting the thread, I recognize the validity of the modeling concept for lots of folks.

I can agree with this. If they are attempting to model an existing Valve amp and the way it responds exactly, then there is areas that can be improved. As far as being a usable tool as they are, able to give the user a wide array of different amp, cab and mics to be able to find a sound that works for them and offer a viable tool to make their life easier etc, then you have to say they are at that stage now - hence many professionals are using these in their rig or for their rig when its the best tool for them at that time. They may not give the exact sound that cannot be separated - even with analysers to check that are far more accurate than a human can hear, cannot be separated by feel or response but also offer far more variety and options for a lot lower cost.

Maybe the next generation will get closer so that even the most experienced cannot tell the difference but right now, they are a viable tool for those that want or need one. No-one should be dismissive or belittle those that do use them and no-one is superior because they don't. They may not suit everyone all the time but then neither does a 100w Valve Combo and Mic set-up so its about picking the right tools and thankfully, modellers and digital units are a viable option rather than being a toy, an ineffective gimmick etc. The keyword there is 'option' and its up to the individual if it is the right option for them.

 

[CandidPicker]

The truth is, I don’t like spending money. I only buy guitars so my wife can’t spend it first on stuff I think is stupid.

So the adage, "It's only stuff" doesn't apply?

 

[sergiodeblanc]

So the adage, "It's only stuff" doesn't apply?

It does, but there’s a stuff hierarchy.

 

[dmatthews]

It does, but there’s a stuff hierarchy.