80s Metal Amp

[bodia]

Let him speak for himself. I don't buy that for even a split second.

The guitarist I've been most dangerous to, I guess, would be my son, who grew up in my studio and claims I taught him stuff - I mean, who knows where he got this idea.

He's the guy on the left at a small gig at Wrigley Field with one of his bands this past summer. Geez, I really screwed up with all the gear, tone and music advice and lord knows I ruined any chance he had...

Of all things, my dangerous advice was so bad, he wound up in a Fender ad (he endorses Fender)...yeah, I made a mess of things.

With one of his gold records for recording, producing and mixing, he has three...too bad I didn't know how to teach him to use the gear in a studio. If only I had known what I was talking about! Better break out the lifeboats!

I am SO f^cking dangerous to new guitarists.

G'head, ask me if I'm ticked off.

Deep breath! Count to ten, and ask yourself if it really matters. You’ve done awesome, no doubt about it.

 

[Bogner]

As A Very Heavy Style/Fast Styled Player Who Does More Chug Than Weedly Weedly I Have Never Been Unable To Find A Tube Head That Would Work For Me And What I Do. At Times I May Boost Out Front Or Throw An EQ In The Loop But I Have Never In All My Years Thought Of Solid State Being The Only Way To Get What I Want/Need. I Have A Lot Of Amps And Some Are More Versatile Than Others And Shine In Their Own Various Ways At Certain Things. Certain Jobs Call For And Require Certain Amps Or Amp Characteristics. There Are Different Types Of "Heavy" But I Can't Think Of Any Type Of Heavy Where I Would Ever See The Best Solution Being A Fender Or A JC-120 With An SD-1 In Front Of It. I Am A Huge Fan Of The JC-120 And Have Owned Mine For A Very Long Time. It Is A Great Amp But Not For Metal. Some Modern Amps Have Become So Stiff That They Feel Choked A Bit To Me In Some Ways. For Me The Bottom Line Is Simple...Does The Piece Of Equipment Deliver As I Need It To And Does It Sound Good Like I Want And Need It To Sound? If Not, Then I Am On The Wrong Piece Of Equipment For That "Thing" I Am After And I Quickly Plug Into Something Else. I Don't Know Of Any Reasonable Sound In Any Genre That I Can't Get A Quality Tone For With All The Gear I Have And I Am A Tube Amp User 99% Of The Time.

 

[alantig]

The guitarist I've been most dangerous to, I guess, would be my son, who grew up in my studio and claims I taught him stuff - I mean, who knows where he got this idea.

He's the guy on the left at a small gig at Wrigley Field with one of his bands this past summer. Geez, I really screwed up with all the gear, tone and music advice and lord knows I ruined any chance he had...

If you'd taught him well, maybe he'd be the guy on the right and further away from the drummer.

 

[Bogner]

If you'd taught him well, maybe he'd be the guy on the right and further away from the drummer.

Now I Don't Care Who You Are...That Right There Is Funny.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

At Times I May Boost Out Front Or Throw An EQ In The Loop

I’m not EM7, and while currently in negotiations, I don’t play him on TV, but…

Most people who do this are using the boost or EQ to reduce bottom end, which lessens the stress on the power section.

There is one huge elephant in the room here though. A whole lot of amps can pull off the speed chugging thing at lower or even mid volume, many if not most of them would fall apart at big stage volume, which is more what I was talking about and I assume Em7 was as well. They hold up great to louder than most of us would play them, but run out of gas at “concert “ levels. I did a lot of experimenting with this on the other end of the power spectrum. It’s really cool playing with OTs, filter caps etc. on small SE amp to see just how much response changes with each change.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

P.S. and that is why so many of the speed metal bands use SS amps. IMO, YMMV, consult your physician for those…

 

[László]

I’m not EM7, and while currently in negotiations, I don’t play him on TV, but…

Most people who do this are using the boost or EQ to reduce bottom end, which lessens the stress on the power section.

There is one huge elephant in the room here though. A whole lot of amps can pull off the speed chugging thing at lower or even mid volume, many if not most of them would fall apart at big stage volume, which is more what I was talking about and I assume Em7 was as well. They hold up great to louder than most of us would play them, but run out of gas at “concert “ levels. I did a lot of experimenting with this on the other end of the power spectrum. It’s really cool playing with OTs, filter caps etc. on small SE amp to see just how much response changes with each change.

These are good points, but as we know, 'concert volume' means different things to different players. At large venues (and even small ones these days) the amps are miked, and the musicians use in-ear monitors or stage wedges. The power of the amp becomes less of a factor.

No doubt you know this.

The pic I posted of my son doesn't show it, but he did that stadium gig with a single 1x12 Mesa Lone Star 100 Watt combo, bought used from another touring musician. It was plenty of amp for the gig when miked up. Sounded plenty loud, had to do both clean and very heavy tones.

Stadium gigs are difficult for the audio people because there's no roof to reflect the sound back to the audience, and the distances from stage to the seating areas are pretty huge.

BTW, the Beatles were famously given 100W Vox amps to use during a legendary Shea Stadium gig to solve that problem in 1965, a time when only the vocals were miked for the PA.

That Lone Star combo is 15-ish years old - it's been around the world several times, and all over the US. It always works. His bandmates in both bands also use a 1x12 Lone Star 100W combo of the same vintage (Blue tolex, silver faceplate and grille cloth). Theirs always work, too.

Tom Petty's player Mike Campbell (now with Fleetwood Mac) uses a blend of old Tweed Fenders, an AC30, and I think an old Magnatone if memory serves, in a pile that gets miked up. None of the amps is more than 30 Watts.

Granted, they're not speed metal players. I'm sure, however, that different players have different preferences, and nothing's wrong with that.

Both my son and I high pass filter some of our low end for playing and recording with our pedals (we use some of the same ones). Not that our amps will crap out, but because it's better to get the low end of a guitar out of the way of the bass and kick in a band mix.

I generally filter out the bass below about 90 Hz.

 

[László]

If you'd taught him well, maybe he'd be the guy on the right and further away from the drummer.

The other player, Mike doesn't sing backup vocals, so he's not stuck behind a mic stand. C'est la guerre.

However, my son uses custom made wireless in-ear monitors that block out the stage noise and protect his ears (the transmitter has a limiter that's very effective). He mostly hears the audio feed from the mixing desk. No worries about the drummer.

Today I believe he tours with a set of these: https://pro.ultimateears.com/products/ue-premier

I taught him to use ear protection when he was 12 0r 13, when he joined his first band. He and I both went to the audiologist together for his first pair, because I needed to have some new earplugs made also. He's been really good about using them.

 

[Bogner]

I’m not EM7, and while currently in negotiations, I don’t play him on TV, but…

Most people who do this are using the boost or EQ to reduce bottom end, which lessens the stress on the power section.

There is one huge elephant in the room here though. A whole lot of amps can pull off the speed chugging thing at lower or even mid volume, many if not most of them would fall apart at big stage volume, which is more what I was talking about and I assume Em7 was as well. They hold up great to louder than most of us would play them, but run out of gas at “concert “ levels. I did a lot of experimenting with this on the other end of the power spectrum. It’s really cool playing with OTs, filter caps etc. on small SE amp to see just how much response changes with each change.

I Am Not Disagreeing. A Lot Of People Also Boost For More Gain, Saturation Or Feel. It Isn't Always About The Low End And Often Times That Can Be Dialed Back Fine On The Amp Itself. There Are Countless Variables As You Know. Any Amp Will Fall Apart When Pushed Beyond Its Limits. None Of My Amps Are Going To Sound Their Best When Their Volume Is Dimed. in Most Instances, The Volume Being At 7 Is Rarely Any Quieter Than The Volume Being At 10. Clean Tones Fall Apart As Well At Certain Points.

So Far This Thread Has Me Confused On A Few Things.
1. Define Loud
2. Define Speed Metal
3. Define Heavy
4. How Do You Put JC-120/Fender Into Any Of These Categories?

Nobody Is Saying In The Thread What These 80's Technical, Speed Metal, Shredders Are Playing Through. I See The Mention Of Extreme And Racer X (Paul Gilbert). I Wouldn't Consider The Band Extreme To Fall Into Any Metal Category. I Will Agree To The Shred Thing With Racer X And Paul Gilbert. When I Hear The Term Shred I Think Shrapnel Records Or Similar And When I Hear The Term Speed Metal I Am Thinking Thrash And Beyond (Faster On The BPM's). I Don't Place The Band Extreme In Any Of Those Categories. I Am Curious To Hear Specifically What All These Myriads Of Bands Were Using On The Solid State Front Because The Shows I Played And Went To Were Mainly Using Tube Amps And I Was Right In The Middle Of The Bay Area Thrash Scene.

Edit: Most People Who Ever Did Use Anything For A Season That Was Solid State Did So Because That Was all That Was Available And They Could Afford At The Time. That Isn't To Say Others I Didn't Know Weren't Hot And Bothered Over A Solid State Rig...Maybe Some Were?

 

[Prina]

a high or low pass filter is a shelf EQ set to max reduction above or below certain frequencies

(I'll use the line from the 'Animal House' disciplinary court scene: "Point of parliamentary procedure!")

For mixing applications, that sounds like a good way to look at assuming max reduction takes those frequencies out enough to not create problems in the mix.

From an engineering definition however, a high pass filter such as a first order HPF, doesn't have an attenuation shelf below the cutoff frequency such as -75dB or wherever you set the shelf. Instead, tt just keeps passing less and less signal as the frequency decreases, the attenuation never stops at a certain level, and when the frequency hits zero (DC) then no signal is passed at all, an infinite dB reduction. It's one of the great uses for capacitors, eliminating direct current.

 

[Prina]

I taught him to use ear protection when he was 12 0r 13, when he joined his first band. He and I both went to the audiologist together for his first pair,

Wish my dad had done that.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Am Not Disagreeing. A Lot Of People Also Boost For More Gain, Saturation Or Feel.

Totally. But most ODs reduce bottom whether or not you’re adding gain. A bunch of other good stuff in your post… too much to reply to with no keyboard. I’ll be home tomorrow night and reply to some of that.

 

[GuitarJammin]

I don't have trouble getting awesome articulation outta my Laney, Diezel and Engl amps. The VH4 is an older design while my others like the the Powerball2, Ivader and D-moll are modern. My VH100r is from 96'. When I'm in the studio I'm feeding them a couple PRS private stock, even though I do have a couple RGs laying around I still prefer the PRS guitars.....so far no issues for me. My 5150 iconic is really bad at articulation,...but it's in the practice room for guests so they don't play on my real stuff. I moved away from the Mesa stuff in favor of the other makers too. So tube amps are not all created equal.

I don't play vintage styled amps really at all, and my most "vintagey" amp would be my Friedman runt 20. Solid states I've heard and owned don't have the clarity most of the time. They seem to "blur" playing quite a bit especially with fast riffing. All the speed metal guys around here think the 6505+ is God's gift to humanity...but that's because that's all they are willing to spend. They'd definitely rather have a go with one of my amps when given the choice.

 

[dogrocketp]

For no good reason, I bought a PRS Harmonic Generator amp many years ago. I had heard a guy play some speed metal through it and he just killed. Unfortunately, I play as many notes in a gig as he played in one song. There went my metal aspirations. It was (and is) a truly great amp for all the styles I’m not capable of playing. While I don’t listen to much heavy music live, I can absolutely understand the rationale behind transistor amps for heavier music. They do seem to respond faster to my ears.

 

[Em7]

I thought DTR was responding to my comment about cutting ALL frequencies below a certain point so the amp doesn't get muddy; obviously a Marshall doesn't filter out all frequencies below 720 Hz. That's all I was pointing out; perhaps I misunderstood his point.

All low or high pass filters are simply steep shelf EQs.

The 750Hz slider on a Mesa is NOT a shelf EQ. If it was, all frequencies above that slider would be boosted or cut. Instead, each slider controls a range of frequencies, not ALL frequencies above and below. It's a Bell EQ.

A shelving EQ creates a flat raise or drop of ALL frequencies below or above a certain point. The amount of the boost or cut can be very steep, or not very steep, but a high or low pass filter is a shelf EQ set to max reduction above or below certain frequencies.


You know how to make amps. How very wonderful.

I know how to create, produce and mix music and I do a good job of it, which is why Fortune 500 ad agencies hire me to create and mix audio and music for TV ads. I've also guest lectured at AES and at the university level about studio and audio topics. I've helped more musicians with their music, and given them more career opportunities, than you will in a million years.

Dangerous to new guitarists, indeed. Take a freaking hike.

I did not say that the Boogie graphic EQ was shelving the output. I previously explained that shelving was setting the -3db down point below which frequencies are attenuated at a rate of -6dB per octave. I was merely pointing out that the 750Hz slider is set the way it is when playing metal through a Boogie for a reason. The two-hole Marshall circuits, 2203 (100W) and 2204 (50W), depart from earlier Marshall designs because of the shelving that reduces bass enough for the power supply to keep up on fast passages. I am a computer engineer by training and profession, which means that I was trained as an electrical engineer and a computer scientist. However, I have been wielding a soldering iron since I was eight years old because of my father's shop in the basement of the home in which I grew up (I learned how to use test equipment before started junior high school). I have been working on tube amps since I was high school in the seventies. I will be sixty-three this year, you do the math. I am working from the better part of fifty-years of hands-on experience.

If you look at the any of the earlier Marshall models that were modded in the eighties, you will see that they too have have been voiced to add shelving to reduce the demand on the power supply. It is necessary to give the amp a more immediate feel than a plexi. What makes a plexi good for blues and blues rock makes it a terrible amp for 80s metal. One does not want sag when playing high speed passages. A JTM 45 does not stand a chance in hades of keeping up under heavy load when playing high-speed 80s metal single note passages. In fact, any tube-rectified amp falls short of the fast transient response necessary to play really high-speed passages. That is big reason why one could not give away BF and SF Fender amps during the eighties. What people are paying $3K+ for today could be picked up for a song at pawn shop in the eighties. There is no room for being a tube snob when it comes to amp design.

 

[Em7]

Nuno Bettencourt, Vito Bratta, and Paul Gilbert are prime examples of why a pure tube design does not work for truly high-speed, ariticulate 80s shred. All of these guys used an Ada MP-1 into a solid-state power amp. In the case of Nuno, it was a MacIntosh 2100 solid-state power amp. Listen to the albums that these masters of shred recorded after the MP-1 released. There is no sag. The notes are tight and fast without the mushy artifacts that occur in a tube amp. That is not possible with a non-regulated power supply that sags under load because the feel of a tube amp is radically different and slower. These guys could have used anything they wanted to use. However, they chose a solid-state platform. There is a tube in the MP-1. but it is there mainly for glow. Almost everything Satriani recorded in the eighties was done with solid-state. Anyone who does not understand this reality was not a gigging guitarist in the eighties. Tube amps where less popular in the eighties then they are today because of Sylvania sunsetting the last tube manufacturing plant in the U.S. Had Mike Matthews not gone to Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall fell, we would all be playing solid-state amps because the NOS tube supply would have been long gone. One of my other hobbies is amatuer radio (a.k.a. ham radio). Radio was also one of the last industries to use vacuum tubes, but even in that market, solid-state has for the most part replaced tubes. My last hybrid transceiver was a Kenwood TS-830 that used 6146B tubes in the final stage.

 

[Wyzard]

.....the biggest hit on that album; namely, "Here I Go Again." Sykes could not come up with a workable solo. If legend is to be believed, Dan Huff came in and recorded the solo in one take.

Great solo, but a truly hideous version of the song itself IMO: the backing sounds like something that fell out of a Christmas cracker.


FWIW I believe it was more politics than talent or sound that led to Huff taking that solo anyway. Some basic research into what Keith Olson said, and why, goes a long way to explaining things.

 

[deathworlder]

Nuno Bettencourt, Vito Bratta, and Paul Gilbert are prime examples of why a pure tube design does not work for truly high-speed, ariticulate 80s shred. All of these guys used an Ada MP-1 into a solid-state power amp. In the case of Nuno, it was a MacIntosh 2100 solid-state power amp. Listen to the albums that these masters of shred recorded after the MP-1 released. There is no sag. The notes are tight and fast without the mushy artifacts that occur in a tube amp. That is not possible with a non-regulated power supply that sags under load because the feel of a tube amp is radically different and slower. These guys could have used anything they wanted to use. However, they chose a solid-state platform. There is a tube in the MP-1. but it is there mainly for glow. Almost everything Satriani recorded in the eighties was done with solid-state. Anyone who does not understand this reality was not a gigging guitarist in the eighties. Tube amps where less popular in the eighties then they are today because of Sylvania sunsetting the last tube manufacturing plant in the U.S. Had Mike Matthews not gone to Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall fell, we would all be playing solid-state amps because the NOS tube supply would have been long gone. One of my other hobbies is amatuer radio (a.k.a. ham radio). Radio was also one of the last industries to use vacuum tubes, but even in that market, solid-state has for the most part replaced tubes. My last hybrid transceiver was a Kenwood TS-830 that used 6146B tubes in the final stage.

Correlation does not equal causation.
Those are barely what I would consider shred players...

I can just as easily say, Michael Wagner was the reason for the proliferation of the MP-1.

Name these glorious shred tones recorded on solid state amps.

 

[Bogner]

Correlation does not equal causation.
Those are barely what I would consider shred players...

I can just as easily say, Michael Wagner was the reason for the proliferation of the MP-1.

Name these glorious shred tones recorded on solid state amps.

True!

I Am Curious As Well To Hear About These Legendary Solid State Shred Tones And Am Still Waiting. Maybe We Should Define Shred So We Are All On The Same Page? I Like Vito, But I Don't Place Him In The Same Category As Tony, Jason, Marty, Yngwie, Etc.

 

[GGJJGG]

Did the original poster just post to start arguing?

What guitar player am I looking for sporting the wall of JC-120 stacks?