Tuning Stability (McCarty 594)

[Summer]

The holes are in line with the strings - so pointing towards the nut when I restring. Its then locked down and tuned so the string ends up on the 'inside' of the post - the side furthest away from the keys and closest to the PRS Signature so you get the straight string pull - you don't want the string going to the outside. My guitar tuners are between a 90 degree angle with the 'hole' in the tuners (Parallel to the nut) and 180 degrees when tuned.

Awesome explanation and i appreciate you taking the time. I restrung it about 3 weeks ago this exact same way. Using NYXL 10's. On almost every PRS I've owned that ping you talk about often occurs, usually on my P Stock. I know, shocking but it happens on most. I've got a gig coming up soon and one of the tunes is Shine by Collective Soul and the tuning is odd. It's in drop D flat so for about a week for an experiment I've used my 594 to change the tuning from standard to this D flat and the 594 ain't diggin it. I can get thru the song once, maybe twice, check the tuning and she's out of tune in either setting. Very frustrating. I play a Suhr Standard plus that I love due to the fact it's rock solid. Six songs and I'll take a peek at the tuning and she's right on. Love that guitar but as I've said, been a PRS guy for years so won't stop, just need them to stay in tune. I own 4 including the P Stock that's not as reliable as you'd think with what I paid, but it's close. Still get a ping out of it fairly often, usually G string. I'll probably switch to the P Stock CU 22 until I figure out my 594. I think like Nurk, I'll try to restring again with a fresh set and maybe switch to Elixir's as some of you have suggested. Maybe I just got a bad batch. Hope that's the case. Anyway, thanks for everyone's help. You guys are awesome.

These aren't Pics of my guitars, they come from PRS's site (https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/support/article/phase_locking_tuners) but it could of been. These illustrate the point that there is no wrap. In both pics, when tuned, the string is going into the hole somewhere between 90 and 180degrees from when you start - at 180degrees, the cut end would be pointing at the nut and in these examples, its not quite that far. Not one is more than 180 degrees from its starting position and these are Official PRS Pics too.

It also illustrates what I mean about the string being on the inside (closest to the signature, not the tuning key) to get the straight string pull and the first pic illustrates the hole and the string being pulled through before locking the nut down and tuning.

Tuning instability is caused by things moving when they shouldn't or not moving when they should - assuming you have stretched your strings properly after restringing. There is nothing that should move - the string is locked down at the tuner and no wraps to slip or move. The only other thing is the nut - friction causing it to not return after a bend for example. You can often tell if a nut is a bit 'sticky' because you get a 'ping' when tuning as the tension overcomes the friction so the string 'pings'.

A Floyd Rose system is so rock solid because it eliminates any 'friction' points - the locking nut and locking saddles are the same principal as a locking tuner - it grips the string so it doesn't move but with other guitars, the nut is a friction point as are the saddles which can stop the string from returning perfectly to pitch. Straight string pull greatly reduces that friction - which is why Gibson are renown for tuning instability. The 594 has a bone nut too so its not a self lubricating nut so maybe your nut slots aren't as 'smooth' as they could be? I doubt the tuner is loose and moving and the same goes at the bridge end too so unless you are not locking the string down properly or not stretching the string thoroughly, I would try looking at getting some nut sauce and/or checking the nut...

 

[dmatthews]

It was the dead strings. Worked all weekend. No probs. Going into production tonight for the first show of the season ("Grease" - Easy peasy).

Awesome, glad it was a simple fix.

 

[Summer]

just got home and checked and my strings are pointing outside posts AWAY from prs
Signature vs pointing to inside as you suggested. Hope you solved my problem man. Won’t have time to re-string until later in the week but will report back.
I’m assuming you use10’s but what brand do you use? You’ve given me new hope.
Sure hope it works cuz I really like my 594.
Thanks again.

The holes are in line with the strings - so pointing towards the nut when I restring. Its then locked down and tuned so the string ends up on the 'inside' of the post - the side furthest away from the keys and closest to the PRS Signature so you get the straight string pull - you don't want the string going to the outside. My guitar tuners are between a 90 degree angle with the 'hole' in the tuners (Parallel to the nut) and 180 degrees when tuned.

These aren't Pics of my guitars, they come from PRS's site (https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/support/article/phase_locking_tuners) but it could of been. These illustrate the point that there is no wrap. In both pics, when tuned, the string is going into the hole somewhere between 90 and 180degrees from when you start - at 180degrees, the cut end would be pointing at the nut and in these examples, its not quite that far. Not one is more than 180 degrees from its starting position and these are Official PRS Pics too.

It also illustrates what I mean about the string being on the inside (closest to the signature, not the tuning key) to get the straight string pull and the first pic illustrates the hole and the string being pulled through before locking the nut down and tuning.

Tuning instability is caused by things moving when they shouldn't or not moving when they should - assuming you have stretched your strings properly after restringing. There is nothing that should move - the string is locked down at the tuner and no wraps to slip or move. The only other thing is the nut - friction causing it to not return after a bend for example. You can often tell if a nut is a bit 'sticky' because you get a 'ping' when tuning as the tension overcomes the friction so the string 'pings'.

A Floyd Rose system is so rock solid because it eliminates any 'friction' points - the locking nut and locking saddles are the same principal as a locking tuner - it grips the string so it doesn't move but with other guitars, the nut is a friction point as are the saddles which can stop the string from returning perfectly to pitch. Straight string pull greatly reduces that friction - which is why Gibson are renown for tuning instability. The 594 has a bone nut too so its not a self lubricating nut so maybe your nut slots aren't as 'smooth' as they could be? I doubt the tuner is loose and moving and the same goes at the bridge end too so unless you are not locking the string down properly or not stretching the string thoroughly, I would try looking at getting some nut sauce and/or checking the nut...

 

[Summer]

The holes are in line with the strings - so pointing towards the nut when I restring. Its then locked down and tuned so the string ends up on the 'inside' of the post - the side furthest away from the keys and closest to the PRS Signature so you get the straight string pull - you don't want the string going to the outside. My guitar tuners are between a 90 degree angle with the 'hole' in the tuners (Parallel to the nut) and 180 degrees when tuned.

These aren't Pics of my guitars, they come from PRS's site (https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/support/article/phase_locking_tuners) but it could of been. These illustrate the point that there is no wrap. In both pics, when tuned, the string is going into the hole somewhere between 90 and 180degrees from when you start - at 180degrees, the cut end would be pointing at the nut and in these examples, its not quite that far. Not one is more than 180 degrees from its starting position and these are Official PRS Pics too.

It also illustrates what I mean about the string being on the inside (closest to the signature, not the tuning key) to get the straight string pull and the first pic illustrates the hole and the string being pulled through before locking the nut down and tuning.

Tuning instability is caused by things moving when they shouldn't or not moving when they should - assuming you have stretched your strings properly after restringing. There is nothing that should move - the string is locked down at the tuner and no wraps to slip or move. The only other thing is the nut - friction causing it to not return after a bend for example. You can often tell if a nut is a bit 'sticky' because you get a 'ping' when tuning as the tension overcomes the friction so the string 'pings'.

A Floyd Rose system is so rock solid because it eliminates any 'friction' points - the locking nut and locking saddles are the same principal as a locking tuner - it grips the string so it doesn't move but with other guitars, the nut is a friction point as are the saddles which can stop the string from returning perfectly to pitch. Straight string pull greatly reduces that friction - which is why Gibson are renown for tuning instability. The 594 has a bone nut too so its not a self lubricating nut so maybe your nut slots aren't as 'smooth' as they could be? I doubt the tuner is loose and moving and the same goes at the bridge end too so unless you are not locking the string down properly or not stretching the string thoroughly, I would try looking at getting some nut sauce and/or checking the nut...

mine are Phase III so I’m assuming you’re inside post suggestion still stands with
III’s . Correct?

 

[Mozzi]

mine are Phase III so I’m assuming you’re inside post suggestion still stands with
III’s . Correct?

Mine are all phase 3 too - what I mean is that the string from the nut to the post is on the 'inside' the side closest to the signature. As you tune, the String will get pulled to the inside from the nut as the end starts to point out towards the tuners so when the hole has rotated 90 degrees, the end you cut should be pointing at the tuners and the string is on the inside. I normally have to turn more than 90 degrees so the end you cut could be pointed at the nut with the string from the bridge to the nut to the tuner is coming up the inside of the post and into the hole nearer the top side - as these pictures show.

The bottom Picture is the Phase III's and they work in exactly the same way. If you look at the 2nd picture, you can see that the string from the nut is is closest to the signature to keep the string as straight as possible from the bridge, through the nut and to the post. After tuning, the hole has rotated almost 180 degrees and comes into the top. Most of mine are around 120 degrees+ after tuning up. Study the picture and you will see none of them have a wrap, the hole has not gone beyond 360 degrees and all are at most around 180 degrees....

And yes I do use 10's. I think I have Ernie Ball Paradigms on it at the moment but it could be D'Addario NYXL's. I tend to use either of these by choice...

 

[Summer]

Got it. I am stringing to the inside and when I snip it once locked in, cut side of string is pointing outside toward tuners.
Sounds like that’s what you do. If different and I’m not understanding, please let me know. If I’m doing it correctly, I’ll switch sting brands, restring and hope like Nurk my problem solved. Thank you for your patience and excellent information. I appreciate it.

 

[Nurk2]

 

[Summer]

That’s exactly how I’m doing it now.
Will restring and hopefully stability gets better. Using 10’s, NYXL.
What brand do you use?
May switch.
Killer schematic that confirms what I’m doing.
Confidence booster.
Thank you. Will report back.

 

[RickP]

That’s exactly how I’m doing it now.
Will restring and hopefully stability gets better. Using 10’s, NYXL.
What brand do you use?
May switch.
Killer schematic that confirms what I’m doing.
Confidence booster.
Thank you. Will report back.

Just got my 3rd 594... rock solid tuning. I’m confident you’re going to find a fix! I restrung this one with Elixir 10s, my normal string, went through my normal new string stretching procedure and played them in a bit. Holding tune as expected. Any quality string that you like should work fine. I use Elixers because they’re not overly bright when new and hold that same sound over a longer period. I’ve had great tuning results with EB Slinkys and GHS Boomers as well. Hoping good things for your situation!

 

[Nurk2]

That’s exactly how I’m doing it now.
Will restring and hopefully stability gets better. Using 10’s, NYXL.
What brand do you use?
May switch.
Killer schematic that confirms what I’m doing.
Confidence booster.
Thank you. Will report back.

Standard D'Addario 10-46. No need to switch. The string gauge is the string gauge irrespective of the brand (think about it). Use whatever you're comfortable with. I use the D'Add 10's because I go through a lot of strings and they're cheap and easy to find.

Three-hour sitzprobe last night. No problems.

 

[Summer]

Just got my 3rd 594... rock solid tuning. I’m confident you’re going to find a fix! I restrung this one with Elixir 10s, my normal string, went through my normal new string stretching procedure and played them in a bit. Holding tune as expected. Any quality string that you like should work fine. I use Elixers because they’re not overly bright when new and hold that same sound over a longer period. I’ve had great tuning results with EB Slinkys and GHS Boomers as well. Hoping good things for your situation!

Thanks so much. I'm going to re-string it with Elixirs this weekend and see if she'll hold for me. I appreciate everyone's help.

 

[Summer]

Just got my 3rd 594... rock solid tuning. I’m confident you’re going to find a fix! I restrung this one with Elixir 10s, my normal string, went through my normal new string stretching procedure and played them in a bit. Holding tune as expected. Any quality string that you like should work fine. I use Elixers because they’re not overly bright when new and hold that same sound over a longer period. I’ve had great tuning results with EB Slinkys and GHS Boomers as well. Hoping good things for your situation!

My G and high E are getting hung up occasionally and I’ll hear one or both
pop/ping when I tune.
Thoughts on like Big Bends nut sauce. I know a lot of guitar techs use a nut sauce every time they re-string.
Thoughts for trying on my 594?
Thanks

 

[dmatthews]

My G and high E are getting hung up occasionally and I’ll hear one or both
pop/ping when I tune.
Thoughts on like Big Bends nut sauce. I know a lot of guitar techs use a nut sauce every time they re-string.
Thoughts for trying on my 594?
Thanks

Never tried a nut lube of any kind yet. I have two 594s, one a 2018 Soapy, and one 2017 WL with 5815s.
The Soapy has never had anything but NYXL 10-46 for over a year, numerous string changes. Always stable.
The 594 WL I just got a month or so ago. It came with NYXL 10-46. I decided to try D'add 9-42, then changed a pup and a new set of D'add 9-42 went on by the tech.
Anyway, all this to say that both guitars through multiple string changes and gauges have been rock solid.
Perhaps the nut needs a filing.
You'll get there!

 

[Nurk2]

My G and high E are getting hung up occasionally and I’ll hear one or both
pop/ping when I tune.
Thoughts on like Big Bends nut sauce. I know a lot of guitar techs use a nut sauce every time they re-string.
Thoughts for trying on my 594?
Thanks

Ready for this...?

In the past I've used 3-in-1 oil for a sticky nut. No "secret sauce" required.

There's also lip balm (ChapStick) and the lead from a graphite pencil. If you use 3-in-1, remember a little (like: a little) is all that's required. Not even a drop. Just enough to get it in the slots, wiping up any excess, and avoiding it coming in contact with the wood. Notice how tiny the applicator is for Nut Sauce. Use a q-tip, the edge of a paper business card, or a toothpick to apply. Also, lubricants attract dust and dirt. Keep it clean every time you restring.

Also good for door hinges.

 

[Warmart]

Lead pencil definitely works well, it's not messy and it's pretty durn cheap and need I say readily accessible?!

 

[Rider1260]

Since the 594 is not a trem, I would'nt think if you tune up to pitch there would be any issue with the nut slots being slightly tight, I have found that after a string change or 2 everything settles in.
sometimes all it takes is running the strings thru the slots a time or two.

 

[alantig]

Lead pencil definitely works well, it's not messy and it's pretty durn cheap and need I say readily accessible?!

What if you don’t have lead in your pencil? (Asking for a friend...)

 

[Warmart]

What if you don’t have lead in your pencil? (Asking for a friend...)

Let your "friend" borrow your pencil??

 

[alantig]

Let your "friend" borrow your pencil??

When she wants to roll something around in her fingers, sure.

 

[Matte82]

Wow. This thread is a bit of a surprise. I'm a hard tail guy and normally shy away from trems. But my first prs was a 513. It was shipped across country, and a pretty cool day outside when it arrived. I didn't wait to let it acclimate like I should have. Took it out of the case and it was essentially in tune with itself. I was blown away. It stayed in tune betttere than any guitar I had ever owned. And it had a trem. I also owned a 594 (and long to replace it), and it was also rock solid tuning wise. As is my current main guitar a McCarty soapbar. It's never more than a couple of cents out of tune. I'm not saying this to brag, but to say tuning issues aren't normal at all for a PRS. So definitely keep at it until you figure out why. Although at this point I think everyone is fairly well sorted it out.

However on the wind/no wind debate. I was always a line up the hole to where the string will pull straight through, put a little tension on the string, turn the tuning knob just until the string us just starting to bend, and lock it down, kind of guy. Until I did a deep dive on PRS's YouTube Channel. And I don't remember which video, but there's a video of a tech showing how to use the phase 3 tuners. He said you wanted 3/4 to one full wrap with them, but one wrap at most. And I don't remember his exact reasoning now, but it made sense at the time. So from then on I still lined up the holes but would half wrap the string to where I was pulling it through the tuner and back down towards the nut before tightening the lock. I can't say I noticed any difference, but hey it was on the internet. Haha.

There's also an idea I'm having trouble putting into words. But as I mentioned, even before my PRS guitars, with locking tuners I would turn the knob until the string started to bend before locking it. This give it kind of a third contact point IMO. Not only is the string being pinched between the top of the tuner hole and the lock (or bottom of the hole and lock in PRS fashion), but also on the side of the hole.

Another thought is the string vibrates all the way to post. Up to the point where it contacts the post. And when you're using locking tuners, that pinch point can cause a weakness in the string. If you don't get the string wrapped a little bit around the post, you're adding vibration where the string may be compromised already, which could lead to premature failure. I've had strings break at the locking tuner before. And I think this is at least partly why. But if you get a little more wrap on the sting, that point is no longer vibrating. Hope this makes a bit of sense, and isn't complete incomprehensible ramblings. Haha.