Tuning Stability Issues

[Jason Smith]

Proof that it's NOT the nut.




In this experiment, the strings make absolutely no contact with the nut. They're locked in place, all together, tuned perfectly. I've floated the locking but before nut to ensure there is no friction point and installed it after the nut for the sake of experimentation.The same issue arises. Dive on the trem, return to resting state, it goes sharp almost a quarter tone. Pull on the string by an inch, it returns to perfect pitch. Again, every contact point oiled and greased. Trem is set to factory height and floats(and yes it ends in the same result when decked).

Thoughts?

 

[Jason Smith]

I also want to add that this has been an issue with vintage-styled trems that's been going on for years that seems to have never been resolved. I've yet to find a thread where the poster returned with satisfactory results. I think that's odd.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Proof that it's NOT the nut.




In this experiment, the strings make absolutely no contact with the nut. They're locked in place, all together, tuned perfectly. I've floated the locking but before nut to ensure there is no friction point and installed it after the nut for the sake of experimentation.The same issue arises. Dive on the trem, return to resting state, it goes sharp almost a quarter tone. Pull on the string by an inch, it returns to perfect pitch. Again, every contact point oiled and greased. Trem is set to factory height and floats(and yes it ends in the same result when decked).

Thoughts?

Is that locking nut installed into the guitar?

If yes, surely that has changed the scale length!

 

[Jason Smith]

It's floating. Not screwed in.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

I believe there is still a potential for the strings to change length in this experiment, as the locking nut is not fixed to the neck!

I may be wrong, but if the strings are attached to the locking nut and then to the capstains on the tuner, the true connection with the neck will be at the tuner, with the possibility of the string flexing either way!

 

[Jason Smith]

The point being that the nut is no longer involved and therefore is not what's causing the issue. The strings now float above the nut.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

If the locking nut is floating, it will still have an effect on the movement of the strings as it isn’t fixed.

 

[Outlier22]

So it's clamped down like a capo making the first fret act as the nut (which can't get stuck because it's a fret). I can't see how the strings would move under that clamped down thingy - unless it's loose. But I doubt it is loose, so it would lead me to believe the stability issues have to be with the bridge.

On my guitar (CE24), my luthier did a ton of work on the nut and was convinced the strings are not binding in the nut. but he couldn't figure out why it was going out of tune when using the bar. Perhaps its the Korean Bridge. (I was going to order a Mann bridge to see but haven't gotten around to it yet.)

 

[Ironwolf]

I've had several Floyd Rose guitars, even those can go out of tune with divebombing.
there's a lot to learn about tremolo's from an engineering perspective.
I went to a Steve Vai guitar camp,we had some deep discussions with lots of experts.
the main thing I learned, is a tremolo is a lot like riding a bicycle or standing a coin up on its edge it is a system on the on the edge of a knife ready to fall one direction or the other. One expert we were talking to made a good description the reason tremolo's go out of tune is because you have 3 to 4 different spring forces acting or pulling against each other and it's easy for one of the spring systems to pick up extra energy and hold it and you have to wiggle the whammy bar to get it to come back into tune.
the first and second major springs is the neck itself the neck is like a bow and arrow the wood is acting like a spring against the strings. places where string tension can change
1. the neck wood tension.(moisture heat bending)
2. the strings in the playing area
3. the springs on the tremolo block
4. the strings behind the nut to the tuning peg. (roller nuts were invented to get close to zero friction..)

heat moisture and pressure you can easily over bend the neck and make the guitar go out of tune. this is the most stable part of the stored energy, but the neck itself contributes to instability stored energy.
when you put steel springs pulling the tremolo block in the opposite direction you've now added a third set of springs. then you are now trying to find a new equilibrium versus the other two individual spring components.
now add in the nut you will have friction which you cannot overcome with the tremolo spring strength, and the length of strings between the tuning peg and the nut, will apply friction in the nut differently for each string it's like a fourth set of spring forces where energy can be stored. a tremolo system is like riding a bike with no hands. you basically have to constantly maintain an effort to return it to center. when you go into a deep dive bomb Eddie Van Halen has always talked about bending the strings back upwards having to constantly pull his G up, to reapply energy to bring it back into tune, if you bend it one way you have to bend it a little bit in the opposite way to return it to neutral.
the bottom line was trying to manage each set of Springs pulling on that knife edge over the course of an hour of playing, returning each one to its original position the same as when you tuned it, so if you think about those components being neutral once the guitar's in tune, just keep trying to return to that neutral point for each system point. Eddie Van Halen has talked about Springs, strings, the neck all picking up the heat, sweat, moisture, temperature changes. and how no matter perfectly the guitar is set up it goes out tune. it's a moving dynamic system, I've definitely noticed it after several hard drive bombs the springs on the back of the tremolo have heated up and gotten warm due to all the excessive bending of the metal.
warm Springs are softer than cold hard Springs. now the system is out of equilibrium again.
the basic idea is constant effort is required to balance a razor blade on the edge with two forces pulling on it in both directions is very difficult. so they said lower your expectations tremolo's are not supposed to stay in tune.
even hard tails go out of tune. it sounds like if you put the mann-made bridge on their you are going have one of the best tremolo systems on the planet, you should be able to ride your bike with no hands keep it neutral.

 

[Outlier22]

interesting info IronWolf. Thanks!

 

[bodia]

I've had several Floyd Rose guitars, even those can go out of tune with divebombing.
there's a lot to learn about tremolo's from an engineering perspective.
I went to a Steve Vai guitar camp,we had some deep discussions with lots of experts.
the main thing I learned, is a tremolo is a lot like riding a bicycle or standing a coin up on its edge it is a system on the on the edge of a knife ready to fall one direction or the other. One expert we were talking to made a good description the reason tremolo's go out of tune is because you have 3 to 4 different spring forces acting or pulling against each other and it's easy for one of the spring systems to pick up extra energy and hold it and you have to wiggle the whammy bar to get it to come back into tune.
the first and second major springs is the neck itself the neck is like a bow and arrow the wood is acting like a spring against the strings. places where string tension can change
1. the neck wood tension.(moisture heat bending)
2. the strings in the playing area
3. the springs on the tremolo block
4. the strings behind the nut to the tuning peg. (roller nuts were invented to get close to zero friction..)

heat moisture and pressure you can easily over bend the neck and make the guitar go out of tune. this is the most stable part of the stored energy, but the neck itself contributes to instability stored energy.
when you put steel springs pulling the tremolo block in the opposite direction you've now added a third set of springs. then you are now trying to find a new equilibrium versus the other two individual spring components.
now add in the nut you will have friction which you cannot overcome with the tremolo spring strength, and the length of strings between the tuning peg and the nut, will apply friction in the nut differently for each string it's like a fourth set of spring forces where energy can be stored. a tremolo system is like riding a bike with no hands. you basically have to constantly maintain an effort to return it to center. when you go into a deep dive bomb Eddie Van Halen has always talked about bending the strings back upwards having to constantly pull his G up, to reapply energy to bring it back into tune, if you bend it one way you have to bend it a little bit in the opposite way to return it to neutral.
the bottom line was trying to manage each set of Springs pulling on that knife edge over the course of an hour of playing, returning each one to its original position the same as when you tuned it, so if you think about those components being neutral once the guitar's in tune, just keep trying to return to that neutral point for each system point. Eddie Van Halen has talked about Springs, strings, the neck all picking up the heat, sweat, moisture, temperature changes. and how no matter perfectly the guitar is set up it goes out tune. it's a moving dynamic system, I've definitely noticed it after several hard drive bombs the springs on the back of the tremolo have heated up and gotten warm due to all the excessive bending of the metal.
warm Springs are softer than cold hard Springs. now the system is out of equilibrium again.
the basic idea is constant effort is required to balance a razor blade on the edge with two forces pulling on it in both directions is very difficult. so they said lower your expectations tremolo's are not supposed to stay in tune.
even hard tails go out of tune. it sounds like if you put the mann-made bridge on their you are going have one of the best tremolo systems on the planet, you should be able to ride your bike with no hands keep it neutral.

Great post!

 

[Outlier22]

Okay I doubt this will help you Jason but I wanted to post my stupidity just in case... So my tuning stability has not been great even after my professional set up. It seemed to get better after my strings were well stretched but when I tested out the trem last night it was pretty bad. Just doing a light vibrato would make the strings go flat and of course pulling the trem would push them sharp.

When I brought the guitar in for the setup a few weeks ago, I had just put new strings on it so he left my strings on the guitar. He did a bunch of work on the nut but swears its not catching on the nut. He said it's mostly staying in tune except the G string when using the trem and he couldn't figure out why. So he suggested I play if for a few days and see how it works and bring back if it's still going out of tune.

Well it seemed to be better but I was not using the trem. Strings would go out of tune after a few songs but only slightly so seemed acceptable. But I used the trem last night and it was pretty bad. All the strings would go out of tune but not even close to the same amount. When I checked the locking tuners they were barely hand tight so I tightened them down using a coin (not too tight) and tuning stability seems to be very good now even using the trem normally for vibrato. ...Stupid! not sure why I didn't check this before. But also I wonder if locking tuners get loose after a while, or if I just never tightened them enough???

 

[dogrocketp]

Next question for Jason. Pull the trem cover off the back. Depress the bar. Do the springs jump up from the trem claw? There should be continuous tension. If they do move away from the trem claw, there's your problem. And we would be back to the springs. One less, or shorter springs. I got an S2 last week, and had to remove one spring to prevent spring jump. All better now.

 

[Tone-y]

Proof that it's NOT the nut.


In this experiment, the strings make absolutely no contact with the nut. They're locked in place, all together, tuned perfectly. I've floated the locking but before nut to ensure there is no friction point and installed it after the nut for the sake of experimentation.The same issue arises. Dive on the trem, return to resting state, it goes sharp almost a quarter tone. Pull on the string by an inch, it returns to perfect pitch. Again, every contact point oiled and greased. Trem is set to factory height and floats(and yes it ends in the same result when decked).

Thoughts?

I also want to add that this has been an issue with vintage-styled trems that's been going on for years that seems to have never been resolved. I've yet to find a thread where the poster returned with satisfactory results. I think that's odd.

I'll offer my pretty confident view (after recent experience on the locking saddles thread) that the actual issue (once the basics like properly set up, not catching in the nut etc) is that the final link in the chain is the strings catching in the bridge where they contact the top of the plate as they come out of the block before they reach the saddles.

Always the standard lines are trotted out - it's the nut, get locking tuners etc. But the actual contact of the strings as they leave the block is always forgotten, and certainly on my Strat bridge (I don't have a PRS trem to compare) there is absolutely no concessions as to the smooth moving of the strings - the vintage Strat has a sharp 90deg bend! I'm willing to bet that if a file was taken to this corner to radius and smooth the transition as the strings break over the block towards the saddle a marked improvement in tuning stability would be had.

To prove this, I've had very similar tuning stability problems with my Eric Johnson Strat (all Strats actually, but this is the only one I've got at the moment). This trem is set-up to be non-floating hard against the body, so the resting position is always the same. In use, anything but light dips results in mainly the G string out of tune (by a lot) but all of the strings could be affected. I've always thought the culprit was the non-locking vintage machine heads (as I'd made sure it wasn't the nut).

Following on from reading the locking saddle thread recently, I purchased some cheap phantom locking saddles. Still have the bone nut, vintage non-locking machine heads etc, and straight away, tuning issues have gone away. Now anything but absolutely decking the trem bar to the body repeatedly results in perfectly returning to pitch. And I reckon that if I had locking tuners even that would be possible.

As the PRS locking saddles seem to only be available from private stock, and the phantom ones are cheap and nasty. I'd suggest to you to take a needle file and put a radius around the top plate of the trem and see if that helps you. I'm sure it will!

 

[Tone-y]

Next question for Jason. Pull the trem cover off the back. Depress the bar. Do the springs jump up from the trem claw? There should be continuous tension. If they do move away from the trem claw, there's your problem. And we would be back to the springs. One less, or shorter springs. I got an S2 last week, and had to remove one spring to prevent spring jump. All better now.

Hmm, good one, and another thing to think about (have to have all of these issues resolved for good tuning stability - the whole system is only as good as it's weakest link!) But in Jason's case as he's described it I don't think it is his problem, as he says the string (and I think he was talking predominantly about the g-string) goes sharp until he gives a pull on it and then it's fine. This would suggest catching somewhere, whereas the spring issue you mention would be a more general tuning issue. Still might need checking though.

 

[dogrocketp]

On the guitar that I had that had the worst problem, the G and B string would go both sharp and flat, depending on the severity of the string or trem bend.

 

[Jason Smith]

Installed a Tusq Nut tonight. Still have the same issue. No change whatsoever. Still no resolution. Definitely not the nut.

 

[Rider1260]

Sorry for you issues, As I don't have an S2 I can't comment on the quality of the bridge but I would look at the height of the knife edge screws if its an adjustment you want to look at I have also had luck adding an extra spring ( 5 ) on one guitar I had.
I have also found many of my PRS get better with use ( heavy use )
I know John Mann sells an upgrade kit for your bridge or the full bridge on my account it is showing a nice discount over MSRP at the moment.
I just picked up a Mann bridge for my Strat that I have high hopes for !!!
I have zero issues with the trems on my core PRS and my newest one ( Special Semi Hollow ) is the best yet.

https://store.guitarvaultusa.com/Block_PRS_CE_SE_S2_trem_vib_brass_upgrade_p/2059.htm

https://store.guitarvaultusa.com/MannMade_PRS_MANN_Vibrato_Gen_II_Bridge_p/2040.htm

 

[John Mann]

Here is the things I usually check...

Troubleshooting tuning issues:
1. Is bridge installed correctly?
a. Watch video -

b. Saddle height should match fingerboard radius.
c. Saddles should be parallel to the bridge plate. Both height set screws should be the same height, NOT angled!

2. Is nut installed correctly?
a. Strings should pass thru the nut in a straight line.
b. Strings should not bind, pinch or stick in the string slot.
c. Do you hear “pinging” when tuning up to pitch? That is a clear sign that the string in pinched in the string slot.
d. If guitar is equipped with a vibrato (tremolo) bridge, the nut should be made of a material that self- lubricates.

3. Are tuners installed correctly?
a. Tuners should be mounted securely, with no looseness (free play or wiggle).
b. Are strings relatively new? “Dead” strings tend not to hold their tuning.
c. Always tune up to pitch (not down). The tuning gear must have pressure on the gears to hold tuning properly.
d. Are the strings properly wound on the tuner peg? The string should self-lock on itself to eliminate any slippage. How to do it - http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/tuners.html
e. If guitar is equipped with a vibrato (tremolo) bridge, locking tuners are a must.

4. Are frets dressed and level?
a. Excessive fret wear will cause a note to play out of tune.

5. Is truss rod properly adjusted?

6. Is guitar properly intonated?

7. Are pickups set too close to the strings?
a. Pickups that are set too close to the strings will cause the guitar to go out of tune, due to the magnetic pull of the pickup magnets.

 

[Jason Smith]

While most of those items on your list aren't related to the issues I'm having, yes, the guitar is properly setup. Thanks for your input.

For those following, I am still having issues with the S2 returning to pitch. Apparently this is an issue even the pros deal with(J. Beck and Govan) to where they have to pull back on the trem to brings the strings in tune. Im surprised there isn't a manufacturer that has tackled this issue with success.

Here is the things I usually check...

Troubleshooting tuning issues:
1. Is bridge installed correctly?
a. Watch video -

b. Saddle height should match fingerboard radius.
c. Saddles should be parallel to the bridge plate. Both height set screws should be the same height, NOT angled!

2. Is nut installed correctly?
a. Strings should pass thru the nut in a straight line.
b. Strings should not bind, pinch or stick in the string slot.
c. Do you hear “pinging” when tuning up to pitch? That is a clear sign that the string in pinched in the string slot.
d. If guitar is equipped with a vibrato (tremolo) bridge, the nut should be made of a material that self- lubricates.

3. Are tuners installed correctly?
a. Tuners should be mounted securely, with no looseness (free play or wiggle).
b. Are strings relatively new? “Dead” strings tend not to hold their tuning.
c. Always tune up to pitch (not down). The tuning gear must have pressure on the gears to hold tuning properly.
d. Are the strings properly wound on the tuner peg? The string should self-lock on itself to eliminate any slippage. How to do it - http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/tuners.html
e. If guitar is equipped with a vibrato (tremolo) bridge, locking tuners are a must.

4. Are frets dressed and level?
a. Excessive fret wear will cause a note to play out of tune.

5. Is truss rod properly adjusted?

6. Is guitar properly intonated?

7. Are pickups set too close to the strings?
a. Pickups that are set too close to the strings will cause the guitar to go out of tune, due to the magnetic pull of the pickup magnets.