Tuning Stability (McCarty 594)

[pallajt]

I just picked up a used McCarty 594 (2019) a few weeks ago. Overall the guitar is fantastic, but I'm having a surprising amount of trouble getting it to stay in tune. I have two modded Zach Myers SEs with Gotoh vintage locking tuners and Tone Ninja nuts, and those two guitars exhibit much better tuning stability than the McCarty. Lubrication in the nut did not solve the problem.

Do you use the PRS string wrap/lock stringing method even with Phase III locking tuners?

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Do you use the PRS string wrap/lock stringing method even with Phase III locking tuners?

Nope.

What gauge strings? Are you stretching them? Can’t imagine having problems with stop/hard tail PRS guitars and tuning.

 

[pallajt]

Nope.

What gauge strings? Are you stretching them? Can’t imagine having problems with stop/hard tail PRS guitars and tuning.

9's, and yes.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

9's, and yes.

Are you tuning up to pitch, rather than down? Only asking because of tuning gear slippage

 

[pallajt]

Are you tuning up to pitch, rather than down? Only asking because of tuning gear slippage

Yes.

 

[pallajt]

I wasn't sure if the string wrap/lock was something I was supposed to be doing and missing. For now I'll just continue to stretch. It seems like I've been stretching the strings for way longer than I've ever needed to on my other guitars and they still haven't stabilized yet; I could just be getting impatient but I feel like the Gotoh locking tuners hold the string in place much better than the PRS tuners do.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I wasn't sure if the string wrap/lock was something I was supposed to be doing and missing. For now I'll just continue to stretch. It seems like I've been stretching the strings for way longer than I've ever needed to on my other guitars and they still haven't stabilized yet; I could just be getting impatient but I feel like the Gotoh locking tuners hold the string in place much better than the PRS tuners do.

Maybe that’s all you gotta do? I haven’t had much bad luck with the Phase IIIs (even though they’re not my favorites) keeping tune. Usually I just need to stretch once, aggressively strum for a minute, and bring ‘em back up into tune.

Ironically, I believe Phase III’s are Gotoh tuners.

 

[pallajt]

Maybe that’s all you gotta do? I haven’t had much bad luck with the Phase IIIs (even though they’re not my favorites) keeping tune. Usually I just need to stretch once, aggressively strum for a minute, and bring ‘em back up into tune.

Ironically, I believe Phase III’s are Gotoh tuners.

Fingers crossed...

That's interesting. I've never, ever had a set of strings that was set after a single round of stretching. It usually takes a few, but again I'm way past "a few" right now; hopefully it gets there eventually.

 

[Black Plaid]

I hate to suggest it, but is it possible the locks aren't screwed down tight enough? I'm sure you can end up with them being too tight, but maybe just make sure they are snugged up.

 

[pallajt]

I hate to suggest it, but is it possible the locks aren't screwed down tight enough? I'm sure you can end up with them being too tight, but maybe just make sure they are snugged up.

They are. Appreciate the thought. I'm really starting to think that, for whatever reason, these strings are taking way longer than usual to stretch. Next time I restring this guitar I may try the wrap method in addition to the tuning locks themselves to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Mozzi]

Tuning instability is something moving when it shouldn't or sticking when it should move. I personally haven't had any instability from my 594 and that was one of reasons I opted to go for it instead of a guitar it was based on. I rock 10's on mine and as the nut is cut for 10's, I would be surprised if the nut is binding. I have NO wraps on my posts either, I pull the string through, lock it down and tune it up to pitch with a decent stretch before retuning. After a good few hard strums, occasionally I have had to do a second decent stretch but generally one decent stretch is enough.

I don't know what strings you are using and maybe yours require a bit more of a stretch or maybe you have just got a batch that needs a bit more of a stretch. Do you have any idea where the string is moving or sticking? Is it at the tuner or nut for example or in the tail piece? Maybe the bone nut is causing a bit more binding, more friction than expected so a bit of Lubrication may fix that. Bone isn't the same as the usual PRS nut that doesn't tend to need any lube as its self lubricating and hard too - maybe the 9's are cutting into the bone a bit and having too much friction to return to tune. Maybe a tuner needs a bit of a tighten so it doesn't move either.

As I said, tuning instability is either the string moving when it shouldn't (either the tuning post loosening the string, the ball end moving) or the string sticking when it should move (too much friction or biting into the nut). With the 594, its relatively easy to work out as it has a fixed bridge, a floating trem bridge adds more possible reasons/areas that could be the cause of tuning instability. I am sure you know all this anyway but if you haven't cured it from an extra stretch, try and work out where the string is moving or sticking. You could check the nut by lifting out the string and see if its cutting into the bone, When you stretch, try and see if its moving the tuning peg or shifting at the ball end. It wouldn't hurt to add a drop of lube at the nut regardless.

 

[gush]

They are. Appreciate the thought. I'm really starting to think that, for whatever reason, these strings are taking way longer than usual to stretch. Next time I restring this guitar I may try the wrap method in addition to the tuning locks themselves to see if it makes a difference.

If you mean wrap strings at the tuner I would not do that. You will create more issues than you solve.

When you're up to pitch there should be less than one wrap on those ph 3 tuners.

 

[pallajt]

Tuning instability is something moving when it shouldn't or sticking when it should move. I personally haven't had any instability from my 594 and that was one of reasons I opted to go for it instead of a guitar it was based on. I rock 10's on mine and as the nut is cut for 10's, I would be surprised if the nut is binding. I have NO wraps on my posts either, I pull the string through, lock it down and tune it up to pitch with a decent stretch before retuning. After a good few hard strums, occasionally I have had to do a second decent stretch but generally one decent stretch is enough.

I don't know what strings you are using and maybe yours require a bit more of a stretch or maybe you have just got a batch that needs a bit more of a stretch. Do you have any idea where the string is moving or sticking? Is it at the tuner or nut for example or in the tail piece? Maybe the bone nut is causing a bit more binding, more friction than expected so a bit of Lubrication may fix that. Bone isn't the same as the usual PRS nut that doesn't tend to need any lube as its self lubricating and hard too - maybe the 9's are cutting into the bone a bit and having too much friction to return to tune. Maybe a tuner needs a bit of a tighten so it doesn't move either.

As I said, tuning instability is either the string moving when it shouldn't (either the tuning post loosening the string, the ball end moving) or the string sticking when it should move (too much friction or biting into the nut). With the 594, its relatively easy to work out as it has a fixed bridge, a floating trem bridge adds more possible reasons/areas that could be the cause of tuning instability. I am sure you know all this anyway but if you haven't cured it from an extra stretch, try and work out where the string is moving or sticking. You could check the nut by lifting out the string and see if its cutting into the bone, When you stretch, try and see if its moving the tuning peg or shifting at the ball end. It wouldn't hurt to add a drop of lube at the nut regardless.

Thanks for taking the time. I use Cleartone strings, which I've had great experience with on all my other guitars, and having the same thought about a "bad batch" (or just a bad restringing job on my part) this is the 2nd set I've had on this guitar now, so I've ruled that out through troubleshooting as well. I'm with you in that I'm not a trem fan (all of my guitars are fixed bridge). I'll see how it does tonight after another stretching session.

 

[pallajt]

If you mean wrap strings at the tuner I would not do that. You will create more issues than you solve.

When you're up to pitch there should be less than one wrap on those ph 3 tuners.

I'm on my second set of strings on this guitar and I did NOT do the lock-wrap either time because I had a feeling that would be the case. I have three other guitars with locking tuners (all Gotoh vintage) so I'm familiar with them and have been using them for a while, but I've found I have better success if there is a bit more wrap around the post. I've strung guitars using the method of (1) lining up the hole w/the neck/string, (2) feeding straight through, (3) pulling taught, (4) lock, tighten/tune up to pitch. My experience has been when you do that, the locking mechanism is the only thing keeping the string in place and under tension. In other words if you were to loosen the lock, the string suddenly drops in pitch/loosens/etc. If you leave a LITTLE bit of slack on the string so it's wrapping around the post at least one full pass, then you've got enough that the string is holding onto the post on its own (the same way it would on a non-locking tuner) and the locking mechanism is just squeezing it in place, instead of doing ALL the work of holding the string to the post.

Just as an FYI - I've tried both ways on the McCarty. We'll see if a bit more stretching tonight solves the problem.

 

[Mozzi]

I'm on my second set of strings on this guitar and I did NOT do the lock-wrap either time because I had a feeling that would be the case. I have three other guitars with locking tuners (all Gotoh vintage) so I'm familiar with them and have been using them for a while, but I've found I have better success if there is a bit more wrap around the post. I've strung guitars using the method of (1) lining up the hole w/the neck/string, (2) feeding straight through, (3) pulling taught, (4) lock, tighten/tune up to pitch. My experience has been when you do that, the locking mechanism is the only thing keeping the string in place and under tension. In other words if you were to loosen the lock, the string suddenly drops in pitch/loosens/etc. If you leave a LITTLE bit of slack on the string so it's wrapping around the post at least one full pass, then you've got enough that the string is holding onto the post on its own (the same way it would on a non-locking tuner) and the locking mechanism is just squeezing it in place, instead of doing ALL the work of holding the string to the post.

Just as an FYI - I've tried both ways on the McCarty. We'll see if a bit more stretching tonight solves the problem.

I never have any wrap at all on my strings - I line the hole up with the nut so the string straight through the hole, pull taught and tighten the screw to lock down the string then tune up to pitch. I have literally no string wrapping - the amount I need to tune up literally means the hole is no more than 90 degrees to the nut so its only touching the post on the edge of the hole. I have heard of those that do drop wrapping a bit more round the post so they can slacken the string down for drop tuning but its really unnecessary to have any wrap at all.

The majority of the 'force' at the tuner is on the edge of the hole and its not a 'straight' pull on the string where it is locked in by the Screw. Turning the tuner so the hole is not in line with nut reduces the force at the screw because its not in line anymore. I hope that makes sense - most of the force on the string is now pulling on the post, the edge of the hole. Its much easier to pull something through a hole if the hole and cord/cable/string/rope etc is in line with the hole but turn the hole (or change the angle of the cord so its not in line with the hole) and you need much more effort and pulling force to over come the angle of force and friction where the cord is touching the edge of the hole.

As for tightening the screw, Its literally finger tight using a coin rather than really aggressive and potentially cutting into the string creating a weak spot that breaks. The locking mechanism hasn't failed me on any of my 5 Core PRS guitars, all of which have the Phase 3 Locking tuners and not one has any 'wrap' at all on the string. 3 of mine do have the floating Gen 3 trem bridge too and the other has the wrap around Piezo bridge so the only one with the Tune-O-Matic type bridge is my 594. All my strings (apart from the Hollowbody with the Piezo bridge that has 11's with a wound G) are 10's and either D'addrio NYXL's or Ernie Ball Paradigms (although I do think I will be replacing my strings with All Nickel). Whether that makes a difference in the amount of stretching I need to do or the tuning stability, I don't know but I can only comment about my own experience and string gauge/type I use.

I have never had a string pull out and the locking screw has always been enough for me. i have had my 594 for a few years now and I have never had any issue with either the tuner or tuning stability once the strings have settled. I rarely have to do more than one pass (that's up and down the string) and a good hard strum test - at most, the strum test may need a small tweak and then repeat the strum test to see if it now stays in tune and if not, a 2nd pass of stretching but I have rarely had to do a 2nd pass and the vast majority of the time, just the stretch is enough because it stays in tune after the first hard strum test. I don't do more than a tone bend, at least very rarely and often go through a set of strings without ever bending more than a tone (maybe a bit more with some vibrato on the tone bend but never a tone and a half bends).

Anyway, I can only comment on my experience with my 594 (as well as my other PRS guitars - although they do have different nuts and bridges) and the string gauge/brand I have used. In any case, I hope you find a solution. I doubt that a bit more wrap (although not a 'full' wrap) would be the issue so maybe try some nut lube and/or try and determine where things are moving or sticking. As for the tuners, you may need to tighten them up (maybe they are moving) and as for 'wrapping', PRS themselves do the pull through taught, tighten up the locking screw and tune up to pitch with no wraps and, if you find pictures of the headstock where you can clearly see the string and tuner, you will generally see no wraps at all and the string is only touching the edge of the hole - not even a quarter wrap.

 

[pallajt]

I never have any wrap at all on my strings - I line the hole up with the nut so the string straight through the hole, pull taught and tighten the screw to lock down the string then tune up to pitch. I have literally no string wrapping - the amount I need to tune up literally means the hole is no more than 90 degrees to the nut so its only touching the post on the edge of the hole. I have heard of those that do drop wrapping a bit more round the post so they can slacken the string down for drop tuning but its really unnecessary to have any wrap at all.

The majority of the 'force' at the tuner is on the edge of the hole and its not a 'straight' pull on the string where it is locked in by the Screw. Turning the tuner so the hole is not in line with nut reduces the force at the screw because its not in line anymore. I hope that makes sense - most of the force on the string is now pulling on the post, the edge of the hole. Its much easier to pull something through a hole if the hole and cord/cable/string/rope etc is in line with the hole but turn the hole (or change the angle of the cord so its not in line with the hole) and you need much more effort and pulling force to over come the angle of force and friction where the cord is touching the edge of the hole.

As for tightening the screw, Its literally finger tight using a coin rather than really aggressive and potentially cutting into the string creating a weak spot that breaks. The locking mechanism hasn't failed me on any of my 5 Core PRS guitars, all of which have the Phase 3 Locking tuners and not one has any 'wrap' at all on the string. 3 of mine do have the floating Gen 3 trem bridge too and the other has the wrap around Piezo bridge so the only one with the Tune-O-Matic type bridge is my 594. All my strings (apart from the Hollowbody with the Piezo bridge that has 11's with a wound G) are 10's and either D'addrio NYXL's or Ernie Ball Paradigms (although I do think I will be replacing my strings with All Nickel). Whether that makes a difference in the amount of stretching I need to do or the tuning stability, I don't know but I can only comment about my own experience and string gauge/type I use.

I have never had a string pull out and the locking screw has always been enough for me. i have had my 594 for a few years now and I have never had any issue with either the tuner or tuning stability once the strings have settled. I rarely have to do more than one pass (that's up and down the string) and a good hard strum test - at most, the strum test may need a small tweak and then repeat the strum test to see if it now stays in tune and if not, a 2nd pass of stretching but I have rarely had to do a 2nd pass and the vast majority of the time, just the stretch is enough because it stays in tune after the first hard strum test. I don't do more than a tone bend, at least very rarely and often go through a set of strings without ever bending more than a tone (maybe a bit more with some vibrato on the tone bend but never a tone and a half bends).

Anyway, I can only comment on my experience with my 594 (as well as my other PRS guitars - although they do have different nuts and bridges) and the string gauge/brand I have used. In any case, I hope you find a solution. I doubt that a bit more wrap (although not a 'full' wrap) would be the issue so maybe try some nut lube and/or try and determine where things are moving or sticking. As for the tuners, you may need to tighten them up (maybe they are moving) and as for 'wrapping', PRS themselves do the pull through taught, tighten up the locking screw and tune up to pitch with no wraps and, if you find pictures of the headstock where you can clearly see the string and tuner, you will generally see no wraps at all and the string is only touching the edge of the hole - not even a quarter wrap.

Appreciate the feedback. I don't mean to discredit the little/no wrap method - in my experience I've found having a little more wrap, so that the string is holding itself on the post and the lock is just keeping it in place, has been more effective/stable. How do you like the Paradigms, BTW?

 

[Mozzi]

Appreciate the feedback. I don't mean to discredit the little/no wrap method - in my experience I've found having a little more wrap, so that the string is holding itself on the post and the lock is just keeping it in place, has been more effective/stable. How do you like the Paradigms, BTW?

All I can say is that in my experience, there is no need for any wrap at all and explained why the majority of the force of the string - even when increased by bending, is not on the grip of the screw holding the string secure but on the edge of the post hole - at least when you don't have any wrap at all. I have never had a string pull out either. Again, not to discredit your method and only to inform you of my experience. If you want to wrap, its your guitar and you that is playing it so your choice.

I quite like Paradigms and never had a string break. I think they stay sounding like new for longer than the regular Slinky's meaning I don't feel I need to swap strings as frequently. Maybe stay cleaner too although I only play at home (no gigging) and don't have particularly sweaty hands. They do feel more 'slinky' than the NYXL's which I find a bit more rigid. Both of these strings are (currently) the strings that I use. Paradigms are my preferred string but that maybe because I had used Slinky's for years. If you have used regular Slinky's, the Paradigms are not greatly different.

I am thinking of changing to All nickel - not just 'nickel' wound which is only wound on the thickest 3 strings. As I play at home and spread my playing over all 5 guitars (6 if you count my acoustic), I don't think I am at great risk of fret wear but there is no point in increasing the possibility with Strings that are harder than the Fret wire. I think we are seeing more fret wear on guitars these days because of the strings. The desire to have stronger, break resistant and increased playing time between string changes has made the strings much harder wearing on the frets. Wear occurs when a 'harder' material is rubbing on softer material. The fact that I am not playing the same guitar everyday with a hard pressure and lots of bends on the same few frets, don't use a capo, certainly not very often and no more than a few minutes so won't be pullung the strings down into the frets, should not be an issue with fret wear but I can minimise that further by changing to a different type of string. The frets may wear the string out quicker because the fret wire is much harder but I would rather wear strings out quicker than have to do fret work more often and eventually need a refret.

Anyway, I hope you find a solution to your tuning issue - tuning stability is a big reason I love PRS and find it annoying to have retune every 20mins. I can take a PRS guitar out of it case and its still in tune more often than not - some of the times I need to tune maybe more down to environmental conditions rather than tuning instability.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Thanks for taking the time. I use Cleartone strings, which I've had great experience with on all my other guitars, and having the same thought about a "bad batch" (or just a bad restringing job on my part) this is the 2nd set I've had on this guitar now, so I've ruled that out through troubleshooting as well. I'm with you in that I'm not a trem fan (all of my guitars are fixed bridge). I'll see how it does tonight after another stretching session.

Yeah, I was gonna ask what kind of strings, but those are a quality brand.

 

[Rollylama]

I’m not a fan of overstretching strings. They have a memory and if you pull them way beyond what they’d experience in normal usage it’s gonna make them less likely to stay in tune under tension, even if it benefits in the short-term right after putting them on.

I just string it up, tune it, play it and bend like I normally do. Rinse, repeat. It takes a little longer to get everything stable but it also stays in tune better than when I used to do the stretching method years ago.

 

[pallajt]

All I can say is that in my experience, there is no need for any wrap at all and explained why the majority of the force of the string - even when increased by bending, is not on the grip of the screw holding the string secure but on the edge of the post hole - at least when you don't have any wrap at all. I have never had a string pull out either. Again, not to discredit your method and only to inform you of my experience. If you want to wrap, its your guitar and you that is playing it so your choice.

I quite like Paradigms and never had a string break. I think they stay sounding like new for longer than the regular Slinky's meaning I don't feel I need to swap strings as frequently. Maybe stay cleaner too although I only play at home (no gigging) and don't have particularly sweaty hands. They do feel more 'slinky' than the NYXL's which I find a bit more rigid. Both of these strings are (currently) the strings that I use. Paradigms are my preferred string but that maybe because I had used Slinky's for years. If you have used regular Slinky's, the Paradigms are not greatly different.

I am thinking of changing to All nickel - not just 'nickel' wound which is only wound on the thickest 3 strings. As I play at home and spread my playing over all 5 guitars (6 if you count my acoustic), I don't think I am at great risk of fret wear but there is no point in increasing the possibility with Strings that are harder than the Fret wire. I think we are seeing more fret wear on guitars these days because of the strings. The desire to have stronger, break resistant and increased playing time between string changes has made the strings much harder wearing on the frets. Wear occurs when a 'harder' material is rubbing on softer material. The fact that I am not playing the same guitar everyday with a hard pressure and lots of bends on the same few frets, don't use a capo, certainly not very often and no more than a few minutes so won't be pullung the strings down into the frets, should not be an issue with fret wear but I can minimise that further by changing to a different type of string. The frets may wear the string out quicker because the fret wire is much harder but I would rather wear strings out quicker than have to do fret work more often and eventually need a refret.

Anyway, I hope you find a solution to your tuning issue - tuning stability is a big reason I love PRS and find it annoying to have retune every 20mins. I can take a PRS guitar out of it case and its still in tune more often than not - some of the times I need to tune maybe more down to environmental conditions rather than tuning instability.

Since you can't impart tone on written text, let me preface by saying none of this is meant in an adversarial way at all - I love swapping info/tips/tricks/knowledge with other guitar geeks.

I still disagree. The way I think about it is like this - if you took a standard, non-locking tuner and strung it the same way you string a locking tuner (so that, when tuned to pitch, the post had undergone no more than a quarter turn), that string is at risk of coming off the post. That break angle on a quarter turn would leave the string very precariously placed once you start to either stretch your strings or bend while playing. You would want to turn the post at MINIMUM 1/2 turn (in other words, so that the side the string is entering the hole is now opposite the neck), ideally probably a little further than that, in order for the string to be secure. I want that same amount of contact with locking tuners so that the string is not relying solely on the locking mechanism to stay in place. The lock should be a SUPPLEMENTAL force applied to the string to get you from minimal slippage to no slippage. On both my modded Zach Myers SEs I have them strung so that each post is roughly between 1/2 and 3/4 turns from "parallel", and I have legitimately gone weeks without having to tune those guitars.

Thanks, I hope so too. The tuning stability of my two SEs is one of the reasons I love them as well. At our last gig I tuned up before we started, played the guitar for over two hours, never touched the tuners once all show. Not only that, after the gig the guitar sat in my bag for a week, and was still in tune when I pulled it out the following Saturday morning. It's ROCK solid. As great as that guitar is, the McCarty is even better - feels better, sounds better, etc. If I can get this sorted out I'll be a very happy camper.