Tuning Stability (McCarty 594)

[alantig]

I AM unfamiliar with the Phase III tuners. I've never used them. Tonight will be this guitar's first string change. Presumably, I slack the string, loosen the thumbscrew, insert new string, and tighten thumbscrew.

I AM, however, very familiar with locking tuners, having used at least three different varieties in the past.

Yep, you've got it. Finger tighten, then about another 1/8-1/4 turn usually will lock them right in. I saw that you were familiar w/other lockers, these really aren't much different than, say, Schallers, except they lock from the front instead of the back.

 

[Nurk2]

Re-strung, stretched, re-intonated. Been practicing for about two hours. The guitar is now behaving exactly as you would expect a guitar with new strings to behave. So far so good.

They cut the strings so tight to the post at the factory that I pricked a finger removing the strings. Every new guitar needs blood before it will play for you!

 

[Summer]

Awesome! Let us know how she olds up at gig. Good luck.

 

[Warmart]

I impale myself 93.26% of the time whenever changing strings. Blood everywhere! Aaahhh

 

[alantig]

Re-strung, stretched, re-intonated. Been practicing for about two hours. The guitar is now behaving exactly as you would expect a guitar with new strings to behave. So far so good.

They cut the strings so tight to the post at the factory that I pricked a finger removing the strings. Every new guitar needs blood before it will play for you!

So it wasn’t the fresh strings but the human sacrifice that did it?

Glad to hear it’s playing well for you.

 

[Bill SAS 513]

Just a small heads-up...when I first changed a set on Phase III's, I finger-tightened, then a little extra turn with a coin,
and while stretching, broke the High E immediately. Take it easy when doing this, as too much torque can/will
damage the strings at the tuner, especially the high, unwound ones. I just hand-tighten now.

 

[Nurk2]

Awesome! Let us know how she olds up at gig. Good luck.

Will do. Thanks.

 

[Nurk2]

So it wasn’t the fresh strings but the human sacrifice that did it?

Glad to hear it’s playing well for you.

It's funny. I SWEAR that every guitar I've ever owned has drawn blood from me the first time I changed strings. They're nasty little machines that must be fed before they'll work.

 

[Nurk2]

Just a small heads-up...when I first changed a set on PHIII's, I finger-tightened, then a little extra turn with a coin,
and while stretching, broke the High E immediately. Take it easy when doing this, as too much torque can/will
damage the strings at the tuner, especially the high, unwound ones. I just hand-tighten now.

Thanks. As I noted above, I've swapped out lockers on practically every guitar I've owned, particularly the ones who see a lot of work. Schaller/Gotoh/Kluson...used 'em all. I finger-tightened them and then gave them each a quarter turn. Good enough.

 

[Summer]

I never have any wrap at all on my strings - I line the hole up with the nut so the string straight through the hole, pull taught and tighten the screw to lock down the string then tune up to pitch. I have literally no string wrapping - the amount I need to tune up literally means the hole is no more than 90 degrees to the nut so its only touching the post on the edge of the hole. I have heard of those that do drop wrapping a bit more round the post so they can slacken the string down for drop tuning but its really unnecessary to have any wrap at all.

The majority of the 'force' at the tuner is on the edge of the hole and its not a 'straight' pull on the string where it is locked in by the Screw. Turning the tuner so the hole is not in line with nut reduces the force at the screw because its not in line anymore. I hope that makes sense - most of the force on the string is now pulling on the post, the edge of the hole. Its much easier to pull something through a hole if the hole and cord/cable/string/rope etc is in line with the hole but turn the hole (or change the angle of the cord so its not in line with the hole) and you need much more effort and pulling force to over come the angle of force and friction where the cord is touching the edge of the hole.

As for tightening the screw, Its literally finger tight using a coin rather than really aggressive and potentially cutting into the string creating a weak spot that breaks. The locking mechanism hasn't failed me on any of my 5 Core PRS guitars, all of which have the Phase 3 Locking tuners and not one has any 'wrap' at all on the string. 3 of mine do have the floating Gen 3 trem bridge too and the other has the wrap around Piezo bridge so the only one with the Tune-O-Matic type bridge is my 594. All my strings (apart from the Hollowbody with the Piezo bridge that has 11's with a wound G) are 10's and either D'addrio NYXL's or Ernie Ball Paradigms (although I do think I will be replacing my strings with All Nickel). Whether that makes a difference in the amount of stretching I need to do or the tuning stability, I don't know but I can only comment about my own experience and string gauge/type I use.

I have never had a string pull out and the locking screw has always been enough for me. i have had my 594 for a few years now and I have never had any issue with either the tuner or tuning stability once the strings have settled. I rarely have to do more than one pass (that's up and down the string) and a good hard strum test - at most, the strum test may need a small tweak and then repeat the strum test to see if it now stays in tune and if not, a 2nd pass of stretching but I have rarely had to do a 2nd pass and the vast majority of the time, just the stretch is enough because it stays in tune after the first hard strum test. I don't do more than a tone bend, at least very rarely and often go through a set of strings without ever bending more than a tone (maybe a bit more with some vibrato on the tone bend but never a tone and a half bends).

Anyway, I can only comment on my experience with my 594 (as well as my other PRS guitars - although they do have different nuts and bridges) and the string gauge/brand I have used. In any case, I hope you find a solution. I doubt that a bit more wrap (although not a 'full' wrap) would be the issue so maybe try some nut lube and/or try and determine where things are moving or sticking. As for the tuners, you may need to tighten them up (maybe they are moving) and as for 'wrapping', PRS themselves do the pull through taught, tighten up the locking screw and tune up to pitch with no wraps and, if you find pictures of the headstock where you can clearly see the string and tuner, you will generally see no wraps at all and the string is only touching the edge of the hole - not even a quarter wrap.

I’m not a wrap guy either but my 594 still not staying in tune like id like. Use 10’s as well:
2 questions please:
1) when you change strings, do you turn hole on tuner so that it’s lined up straight down the neck, pointing directly to the nut, or did you say you turn the tuner away at an angle? I line mine up so all pointing straight down neck, string goes straight in
2) Guitar designed for 10’s which i use, but is there an absolute go to string brand you use on all? If so, please share. Thanks.

 

[Nurk2]

I’m not a wrap guy either but my 594 still not staying in tune like id like. Use 10’s as well:
2 questions please:
1) when you change strings, do you turn hole on tuner so that it’s lined up straight down the neck, pointing directly to the nut, or did you say you turn the tuner away at an angle? I line mine up so all pointing straight down neck, string goes straight in
2) Guitar designed for 10’s which i use, but is there an absolute go to string brand you use on all? If so, please share. Thanks.

Strings always wind around the post on the side of the middle of the headstock.

I use D'Addarios 10-46 Nickel-Wound because they're cheap, reliable, and easy to find. I go through a lot of strings.

Although signs are positive, I'm not certain that I'm out of the woods yet. Let me say this, though, stretching is really critical to tuning stability. Often I think people stretch 'em a little, strum a little, and then say "good enough."

When I change strings, I put the new set on, and then using the strobe setting on a TU-2 bring them all up to pitch. I hold each string down with my left hand around the 7th fret and with my right give it a few good pulls, then bring it back up to pitch. I do this a couple times on each string the first time through.

Then I do all the strings again. And then I do it again. After three or four passes they're holding pretty good so at that point I check and adjust the intonation if needed, all the while doing finger bends and pulls and re-tuning. After a some playing time they usually settle in pretty good.

TL;DR - New strings have a ton of slack, which requires a lot of stretching to get them stable.

 

[Summer]

Per Mozzi post, I think he’s saying he doesn’t wrap, he angles hole toward middle of headstock as you mentioned and locks it down. I wouldn’t consider that a wrap.
Do you angle it right to the middle, say 3:00?

 

[Nurk2]

Per Mozzi post, I think he’s saying he doesn’t wrap, he angles hole toward middle of headstock as you mentioned and locks it down. I wouldn’t consider that a wrap.
Do you angle it right to the middle, say 3:00?

I do the same for all locking tuners: Bring the string straight in from the nut, lock it, and tune to pitch. The angle of the hole doesn't matter nor does the wrap. The lockers are holding the string. The point of contact for the string is the post, irrespective of where the hole is.

The only time I worry about locking or bending the string at the post is when I'm wrapping a string around a non-locking tuner.

Then, the process is straight in from the nut. Pull it back about a fret for extra string for the wrap. Bend the string at the post toward the middle of the headstock, then wrap it under itself and bend it over itself toward the center of the headstock (that's your lock), then wrap around the post each wrap going beneath the one before it.

 

[shinksma]

So as a completely useless anecdote, my 594 SH has been just fine, tuning stability wise, during two and a half months ownership. Tune once (maybe not even required), usually to account for very minor tuning drift due to weather/temp changes, if even that, and it's good all night long.

It still has the factory strings on it (AFAIK), which are probably over 7 months old now, and sat in the dealer store for a few months before I acquired it.

I do the same for all locking tuners: Bring the string straight in from the nut, lock it, and tune to pitch. The angle of the hole doesn't matter nor does the wrap. The lockers are holding the string. The point of contact for the string is the post, irrespective of where the hole is.

That's exactly what I do, on the rare occasion I change strings. I play regularly, gigging twice or three times a month, practicing twice a week, plus noodling, and I change a string (or the whole set, depending) maybe twice a year across my entire guitar collection.

I honestly cannot fathom what is "wrong" with those 594s that are giving you guys tuning stability issues. :shrug:

 

[bodia]

I’m not a wrap guy either but my 594 still not staying in tune like id like. Use 10’s as well:
2 questions please:
1) when you change strings, do you turn hole on tuner so that it’s lined up straight down the neck, pointing directly to the nut, or did you say you turn the tuner away at an angle? I line mine up so all pointing straight down neck, string goes straight in
2) Guitar designed for 10’s which i use, but is there an absolute go to string brand you use on all? If so, please share. Thanks.

I do exactly like you do in #1. As for strings, I've been using Elixr Optiwebs for the last couple of years. My fingers react better to the coated strings.

 

[bodia]

Re-strung, stretched, re-intonated. Been practicing for about two hours. The guitar is now behaving exactly as you would expect a guitar with new strings to behave. So far so good.

They cut the strings so tight to the post at the factory that I pricked a finger removing the strings. Every new guitar needs blood before it will play for you!

Glad to hear it!

 

[Nurk2]

It still has the factory strings on it (AFAIK), which are probably over 7 months old now, and sat in the dealer store for a few months before I acquired it.

It's mileage, not time, that kills strings (though, obviously, even unplayed strings eventually become dead). I'm lucky to a month out of the strings on my main work guitar, but I average at least a couple hours a day. The acoustic sees far less play so I only change them before shows if it's a score that calls for acoustic.

 

[Mozzi]

I’m not a wrap guy either but my 594 still not staying in tune like id like. Use 10’s as well:
2 questions please:
1) when you change strings, do you turn hole on tuner so that it’s lined up straight down the neck, pointing directly to the nut, or did you say you turn the tuner away at an angle? I line mine up so all pointing straight down neck, string goes straight in
2) Guitar designed for 10’s which i use, but is there an absolute go to string brand you use on all? If so, please share. Thanks.

The holes are in line with the strings - so pointing towards the nut when I restring. Its then locked down and tuned so the string ends up on the 'inside' of the post - the side furthest away from the keys and closest to the PRS Signature so you get the straight string pull - you don't want the string going to the outside. My guitar tuners are between a 90 degree angle with the 'hole' in the tuners (Parallel to the nut) and 180 degrees when tuned.

These aren't Pics of my guitars, they come from PRS's site (https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/support/article/phase_locking_tuners) but it could of been. These illustrate the point that there is no wrap. In both pics, when tuned, the string is going into the hole somewhere between 90 and 180degrees from when you start - at 180degrees, the cut end would be pointing at the nut and in these examples, its not quite that far. Not one is more than 180 degrees from its starting position and these are Official PRS Pics too.

It also illustrates what I mean about the string being on the inside (closest to the signature, not the tuning key) to get the straight string pull and the first pic illustrates the hole and the string being pulled through before locking the nut down and tuning.

Tuning instability is caused by things moving when they shouldn't or not moving when they should - assuming you have stretched your strings properly after restringing. There is nothing that should move - the string is locked down at the tuner and no wraps to slip or move. The only other thing is the nut - friction causing it to not return after a bend for example. You can often tell if a nut is a bit 'sticky' because you get a 'ping' when tuning as the tension overcomes the friction so the string 'pings'.

A Floyd Rose system is so rock solid because it eliminates any 'friction' points - the locking nut and locking saddles are the same principal as a locking tuner - it grips the string so it doesn't move but with other guitars, the nut is a friction point as are the saddles which can stop the string from returning perfectly to pitch. Straight string pull greatly reduces that friction - which is why Gibson are renown for tuning instability. The 594 has a bone nut too so its not a self lubricating nut so maybe your nut slots aren't as 'smooth' as they could be? I doubt the tuner is loose and moving and the same goes at the bridge end too so unless you are not locking the string down properly or not stretching the string thoroughly, I would try looking at getting some nut sauce and/or checking the nut...

 

[Nurk2]

It was the dead strings. Worked all weekend. No probs. Going into production tonight for the first show of the season ("Grease" - Easy peasy).

 

[bodia]

It was the dead strings. Worked all weekend. No probs. Going into production tonight for the first show of the season ("Grease" - Easy peasy).

Glad to hear it