New member PRS guitar quality issues.

The SE line is at the low price end of guitars - for a PRS. Picking the Pauls SE at $999 is like trying to find the most expensive PS guitar as indicative of the price of US made PRS guitars - this the 'premium' SE model but if that's still too much for you, you can buy a SE standard for half that price or maybe a Harley Benton would suit your budget better? The SE Paul is also a fraction of the cost of the Core PRS Pauls Guitar so yes it is extremely LOW PRICED - especially compared to the price of the US made Guitar on which this is based. I don't live in the US so not entirely sure of the US prices, but just price up the Core Pauls Guitar - the latest ones with the TCI pickups - not the 408's - and I think you will be able to buy 4 or more SE versions for the price of a Core which makes this extremely cheap comparably...

I meant to compare the SE & S2 models. Example: SE custom 24 is $800, S2 standard 24 is $1000, & S2 custom 24 is $1400. What would you pick out of those three? What do you think is the best bang for your buck? If you were the owner of the company what would you feel the most confident in? My point is there comes a point that I do not understand putting your brands reputation in jeopardy if you can compete with items made in house. And I do own a Harley Benton ($250) that is far superior to the Indonesian SE standard 22 that I just returned. I do own the Zach Myers SE Korean model, and it is because I am a Shinedown fan and really wanted it. If not for that fact, I would have opted for the S2 singlecut semi-hollow.
 
I meant to compare the SE & S2 models. Example: SE custom 24 is $800, S2 standard 24 is $1000, & S2 custom 24 is $1400. What would you pick out of those three? What do you think is the best bang for your buck? If you were the owner of the company what would you feel the most confident in? My point is there comes a point that I do not understand putting your brands reputation in jeopardy if you can compete with items made in house. And I do own a Harley Benton ($250) that is far superior to the Indonesian SE standard 22 that I just returned. I do own the Zach Myers SE Korean model, and it is because I am a Shinedown fan and really wanted it. If not for that fact, I would have opted for the S2 singlecut semi-hollow.

$600 - 75% more for US made with the same imported PUs etc for basically the same guitar would tell me the 'best' bang for buck is the SE - you can put locking tuners and change the nut for less money than the difference in costs for something that is basically the same guitar just made in the US. The difference in the standard prices is even more. That is assuming you get an SE that isn't 'damaged'. As far as I am concerned, the inly reason to buy an S2 is for the made in the US stamp and not having SE on the headstock. Not coming from the US myself, I don't have 'national pride' to worry about so no need to pay a 'premium' for US manufacture so bang for buck, the SE still represents the 'best' as far as I am concerned as I can buy a guitar as pretty as the S2 and have money left over to mod it above the specs of the S2 as well.

Personally though, I prefer to buy Core models so for me, they are the 'best' option. If I only had $1400 to spend, I would be more tempted to look at the 2nd hand market for a core and, if I can't find a core for that amount, keep saving until I can. Both the SE and S2 represent the 'budget' end of the PRS line - the SE the 'budget' models made abroad to come in under $1k and the S2, the budget US made models which start at the price of the most expensive SE. I bet if PRS made a S2 Pauls Guitar, that would be at least $1750 and then people will complain its pushing the CE for something that is technologically superior and with a PS quality bridge too.

I see no problem with the top of the line, the best of the SE's being priced similarly to the bottom of the line S2 range. The 24 Standard can only be compared with other 24 Standards, same with the different 'custom' 24 models and as such, there is a vast difference in price. You can only look at the the same models and compare pricing - you can't say a core Hollowbody 2 should be the same price as a core Custom 24 because they are different models and the HB2 has more work going into its build. The core HB2 can be more expensive than 10-tops and WL custom 24's - point is, you have to look at models. If you prefer a solid mahogany bodied 24 fret guitar, then you are looking at the SE or S2 24 which has a big difference in price, want the maple cap Custom model, then you have a big difference between the price as you move up from SE, to S2 to CE to Core+.
 
As far as I am concerned, the inly reason to buy an S2 is for the made in the US stamp and not having SE on the headstock.

So you believe that the factories that make the SE guitars are just as good as the Maryland factory? You believe that the body and neck to be equal material and build quality?
 
I meant to compare the SE & S2 models. Example: SE custom 24 is $800, S2 standard 24 is $1000, & S2 custom 24 is $1400. What would you pick out of those three? What do you think is the best bang for your buck?...

S2 all the way for me, based on fret and neck feel (I close my eyes and can’t tell it’s not a Core model).

As the owner of the company? The Epiphone/Gibson model array sells a lot of guitars.

SE by PRS vs PRS made in Maryland is similar, kind of like Tribute G&L vs G&L.

There is a difference in the “feel” (frets etc) that I don’t overlook. I vote with my wallet. S2 all the way.
 
And I do own a Harley Benton ($250) that is far superior to the Indonesian SE standard 22 that I just returned. I do own the Zach Myers SE Korean model, and it is because I am a Shinedown fan and really wanted it. If not for that fact, I would have opted for the S2 singlecut semi-hollow.

As to your first question, the S2 is the better playing, better sounding guitar, IMHO, and that to me is good value.

As far as Harley Benton goes...Well, the tone demos I’ve heard were positively horrid sounding (and maybe that’s just down to those demos and those individual guitars), so I have to ask, superior in what way(s)?
 
As to your first question, the S2 is the better playing, better sounding guitar, IMHO, and that to me is good value.

As far as Harley Benton goes...Well, the tone demos I’ve heard were positively horrid sounding (and maybe that’s just down to those demos and those individual guitars), so I have to ask, superior in what way(s)?

Every way to the SE standard I returned but if I were to compare to the other 4 SE ‘s we have I would say it is real close. The pups are the weakest link of the Harley and I planned on swapping them from the start. I have a set of SD Slash pups to put in it. Not sure if I got lucky or if they just make a real nice entry level guitar??? Finish is great, good fret work, and plays really well. It is what it is and I picked it up for a no worry outside playing guitar.
 
Is WMI completely removed from the SE pipeline? Both my SEs are stellar (2005 McSoapie II, 2006 Santana).
 
So you believe that the factories that make the SE guitars are just as good as the Maryland factory? You believe that the body and neck to be equal material and build quality?

Of course there are differences here - that's not what I meant. The guitars are 'fundamentally' the same though - same type of woods, same shape and share a lot of the same parts too - inc the PU's so fundamentally the same guitar. Whether you think that the US made models are worth the 75%+ mark up is dependent on personal preference. There are some that think an SE competes very well with a core and not too different on tone and almost as playable (certainly good enough to tour/gig with) - and its a lot closer to an S2 that has the same PU's, bridge etc.

For less money that it costs to buy the S2 model equivalent, you can buy an SE, replace the PU's with made in the US PRS PU's (or a branded after market set like SD's BK's etc), put a quality nut and locking tuners on it so you get more 'bang' for your buck.
 
Of course there are differences here - that's not what I meant. The guitars are 'fundamentally' the same though - same type of woods, same shape and share a lot of the same parts too - inc the PU's so fundamentally the same guitar. Whether you think that the US made models are worth the 75%+ mark up is dependent on personal preference. There are some that think an SE competes very well with a core and not too different on tone and almost as playable (certainly good enough to tour/gig with) - and its a lot closer to an S2 that has the same PU's, bridge etc.

For less money that it costs to buy the S2 model equivalent, you can buy an SE, replace the PU's with made in the US PRS PU's (or a branded after market set like SD's BK's etc), put a quality nut and locking tuners on it so you get more 'bang' for your buck.
I get the gist of what you're saying, but let's not confuse mark up with cost. US models are not marked up 75% over SE models. The cost to make a Core guitar is significantly higher - the obvious one is the skilled labor cost in the U.S.; plus more steps (i.e., time) to build a Core guitar (more detailed body carve, staining/finish application material and process, etc.); higher material costs; more time due to additional quality checks during production, etc. At the end, there is likely a higher margin on a U.S. model (it's expected when buying a premium brand), but nowhere near the 75% that accounts for the price difference with SEs.

As a manufacturing engineer, I can tell you that what you want out of a highly automated off-shore contract manufacturer is the ability to produce high volume consistency. You design the production process around repeatability, material routing efficiency, and highly reliable equipment capable of meeting those requirements. I think the quality issues with Cor-Tek are from the points in the process where human labor gets involved - they are probably not at the skill-level of their Korean counterparts.
 
I get the gist of what you're saying, but let's not confuse mark up with cost. US models are not marked up 75% over SE models. The cost to make a Core guitar is significantly higher - the obvious one is the skilled labor cost in the U.S.; plus more steps (i.e., time) to build a Core guitar (more detailed body carve, staining/finish application material and process, etc.); higher material costs; more time due to additional quality checks during production, etc. At the end, there is likely a higher margin on a U.S. model (it's expected when buying a premium brand), but nowhere near the 75% that accounts for the price difference with SEs.

As a manufacturing engineer, I can tell you that what you want out of a highly automated off-shore contract manufacturer is the ability to produce high volume consistency. You design the production process around repeatability, material routing efficiency, and highly reliable equipment capable of meeting those requirements. I think the quality issues with Cor-Tek are from the points in the process where human labor gets involved - they are probably not at the skill-level of their Korean counterparts.

You have completely missed my point - there is a 75% increase in cost to the customer (ie you) to go from an $1400 PRS SE Custom 24 to a $1400 PRS S2 Custom - If you look at the Core models, the Price difference is generally over 400%. The point was to comparing the S2 to an SE - NOT a Core model.

An S2 has a lot of the same parts - same PU's, same Bridge for example - both have a similar simplistic carve - certainly NOT in the same league as a Core guitar Carve. There is a LOT of similarity between the $800 SE and 75% more expensive ($600 is 75% of $800) $1400 S2 so the customer has to decide whether or not you are getting a guitar that offers 75% 'better' bang for your buck with an S2 because as far as a lot of aspects are concerned, you are getting exactly the same specs and 'generally' similar guitars - essentially the only difference is that the S2 is constructed in the US with a lot of imported parts and the SE is entirely made abroad and imported ed to the US.

I am not saying an S2 is 'bad' but that a customer wanting to buy a guitar has to decide if the S2 is worth 75% more to them. Spending $1400 on a guitar they can essentially get for $800 if they are not to concerned where the body was made. Its almost like trying to decide if you want an Epiphone or spend a bit more on a Les Paul Studio - although the Epiphone Tribute Plus has a lot more to offer (Split coils, Hard Case, locking tuners etc) but doesn't have 'Gibson' on the headstock.

I certainly wasn't referring to the difference between a 'Core' PRS and an SE. Of course I am fully aware of how much work, the highest quality materials and all the Quality control steps that are in place. I also own 4 Core PRS guitars myself and wouldn't have paid the price I did if I didn't think they were worth it. I live in the UK too so the price we pay seems to be at LOT more than you do in the US as well and I bought ALL my guitars brand new. An SE Custom 24 costs around £800 ($1030) here ($800 is around £620 at the current exchange rate) and a Core Custom 24 (non-10top) around £3200 ($4130) so around 400% more expensive than the SE - my Hollowbody 2 was the equivalent of $5800 - I could buy 5 SE Pauls and a Custom 24 for that in the US, around 5 SE Custom 24's for the price of my Core Custom 24 in the US. Instead of owning just 4 PRS electrics, I could have 20+ brand new PRS SE guitars in my collection. You don't have to tell me that the Core series is worth it though and I have frequently defended the price of these myself when many people criticise the cost.

As with everything, it comes down to individual preferences - whether they want to spend under $1k, over $1k, over $3k etc on an instrument, whether they think the differences in cost actually add up to a sizeable enough difference to justify purchasing and often I see people dismissing the S2 because the only 'significant' difference is where the body and assembly of parts is done. If you think that extra $600 is worth having an S2 Custom 24 over an SE Custom 24 and can afford it - then fair enough. It doesn't bother or affect me either way as its not my money, not me that will be playing it etc but I do think that 'Bang for Buck' an SE is perhaps better value as you can use that $600 you have saved to upgrade your SE to have much better PU's, nut, Tuners etc and, if you have the ability, do any fretwork you feel necessary - round of the ends for example. In my opinion, rightly or wrongly, I think that would give the SE an edge over an S2 which will still have the same PU's and Bridge as an SE.
 
While I do think your quality control issues are valid concerns, I believe that your ability to recognize these subtle details means that you should be looking at buying a core line PRS guitar. If you can't afford a new one, you can still find them used around half price and you'll save a whole lot of money. Big picture view, I think you'll just be happier that way.
 
I meant to compare the SE & S2 models. Example: SE custom 24 is $800, S2 standard 24 is $1000, & S2 custom 24 is $1400. What would you pick out of those three? What do you think is the best bang for your buck? If you were the owner of the company what would you feel the most confident in? My point is there comes a point that I do not understand putting your brands reputation in jeopardy if you can compete with items made in house. And I do own a Harley Benton ($250) that is far superior to the Indonesian SE standard 22 that I just returned. I do own the Zach Myers SE Korean model, and it is because I am a Shinedown fan and really wanted it. If not for that fact, I would have opted for the S2 singlecut semi-hollow.

You're comparing apples and oranges IMO.

A standard and a custom are very different sounding.

SE Std vs S2 Std is closer comparo.
So you're talking the SE is 1/2 the price of S2...which IMO is twice as good, so it's fair.
 
While I do think your quality control issues are valid concerns, I believe that your ability to recognize these subtle details means that you should be looking at buying a core line PRS guitar. If you can't afford a new one, you can still find them used around half price and you'll save a whole lot of money. Big picture view, I think you'll just be happier that way.

Agree.

If you're used to driving a Cadillac or a fully optioned Acura...
Getting into a stripped down Civic isn't going to be the same thing.

It's hard to go backwards.
 
...I am not saying an S2 is 'bad' but that a customer wanting to buy a guitar has to decide if the S2 is worth 75% more to them. Spending $1400 on a guitar they can essentially get for $800 if they are not to concerned where the body was made. Its almost like trying to decide if you want an Epiphone or spend a bit more on a Les Paul Studio - although the Epiphone Tribute Plus has a lot more to offer (Split coils, Hard Case, locking tuners etc) but doesn't have 'Gibson' on the headstock.
I get and agree with most of your points except the idea that the difference between and S2 and SE is just where the body was made. They are definitely different feeling guitars. comparing S2 custom 24 to SE custom 24, the S2 has a bigger beveled maple cap and if course as you point out, have locking tuners, and a few other small features to set it apart. But it's not the small features that make it nicer. It's the final product (call it craftsmanship, call it feel, whatever).

since we seem to like car analogies, the SE and S2 guitars are like comparing a Honda to an Acura. They are made on the same platforms and share many parts. From afar one might say they are basically the same why would anyone pay extra for the name. but when you actually sit in the Acura you say to yourself "Wow, this is nice".

Personally my wife and I both drive Honda's :)
 
I get and agree with most of your points except the idea that the difference between and S2 and SE is just where the body was made. They are definitely different feeling guitars. comparing S2 custom 24 to SE custom 24, the S2 has a bigger beveled maple cap and if course as you point out, have locking tuners, and a few other small features to set it apart. But it's not the small features that make it nicer. It's the final product (call it craftsmanship, call it feel, whatever).

since we seem to like car analogies, the SE and S2 guitars are like comparing a Honda to an Acura. They are made on the same platforms and share many parts. From afar one might say they are basically the same why would anyone pay extra for the name. but when you actually sit in the Acura you say to yourself "Wow, this is nice".

Personally my wife and I both drive Honda's :)

I think it's a farther spread than Honda / Acura IMO.
But it's semantic at that point.

Taking price into consideration, I feel like the S2's should be twice as good. And IME comparing, they are.
But I know what i'm OK with in the price point.

And I'm also a used 'Core' buyer at this point anyway. LOL

(Accord guy myself).
 
I get and agree with most of your points except the idea that the difference between and S2 and SE is just where the body was made. They are definitely different feeling guitars. comparing S2 custom 24 to SE custom 24, the S2 has a bigger beveled maple cap and if course as you point out, have locking tuners, and a few other small features to set it apart. But it's not the small features that make it nicer. It's the final product (call it craftsmanship, call it feel, whatever).

since we seem to like car analogies, the SE and S2 guitars are like comparing a Honda to an Acura. They are made on the same platforms and share many parts. From afar one might say they are basically the same why would anyone pay extra for the name. but when you actually sit in the Acura you say to yourself "Wow, this is nice".

Personally my wife and I both drive Honda's :)

We don't have Acura's over here - but the point is, you still have to decide if the differences are worth the extra cost. Is the S2 giving the person who is buying, at least a 75% better guitar or not. For someone who is perhaps not as flush with money, having to find an extra $600 for the difference may find that too much. There are some who think anything more than 1k (whether that $'s or £'s) is too much to pay for a guitar unless it really does offer significant tangible benefits over the cheaper model and better than any other guitar they could buy for 1k or less. If it has to be a PRS, then they will look at whether or not the S2 is worth the extra they have to spend but if not, then they may look at all the other options they have in the 1k or less bracket.

If you have two cars that are basically the same but one cost $8000 new and the other cost $14000 new (the same 75% more expensive) with the same engine and gearbox, same sound system, same basic body shape etc that offered the same basic functionality, you would still look to see whether or not the differences are worth the extra $6000 or whether the 'cheaper' model is good enough to get you from A to B without worrying whether the badge on the front is the right badge. I couldn't care less if the car was assembled locally with a lot of imported parts that are also on the cheaper model and a better quality tyre as standard and some more 'shiny' bits in the interior or imported as a fully assembled vehicle overseas as long as they both do the job that I am looking for - I would still be assessing whether the differences amount to $6000 worth to me or whether I could buy the cheaper model and spend a little extra to bring it up to or even surpass the more expensive model. Its all about whether or not that extra works out to be worth it and that will come down to the individual, their perception and how they value money. If you would never spend or cannot afford more than $10k on a car, then the $14000 version is too much anyway regardless of whether it does justify its extra cost. If the range of options available are not as wide as the 'cheaper' badged cars, then you have little choice - I don't see an S2 Pauls Guitar, DGT, Zach Myers or Holcomb for example. Of you only have $8000 to spend on a car and the 'Honda' doesn't meet the quality you expect, you still won't spend $14000 on the Acura, you will look to see what Ford or Nissan or Toyota have in that price range and whether or not you can get a model similar to the Honda but with better quality.

The point I was making at the start which seems to be blown out of all proportion is that if you want a Pauls Guitar, you have limited choices - the SE or Core+ range which will be 400%+ more expensive. Personally, if I was looking to buy a Pauls Guitar, I would buy a core but for some, that is well above what they would or can spend on a guitar and so they have the option of the SE. Regardless of whether that guitar is the same price as the S2 standard 24 or not, its a different guitar and I bet if PRS did make a S2 version, you would see a price of around $1800 - maybe more which may well be CE money. People will still complain that they can buy a CE or perhaps even find a 2nd hand Core Custom 24 for that amount - still not a 'Pauls' guitar that does and sounds like what a Pauls Guitar does.

The price is the price and if you prefer to buy an S2 Standard 24 for $1k, that is your choice but you are not getting a 'Pauls' guitar which is different. If you are in the market for a Custom 24, then you have more choice and again, each person will have their own perspective on value and benefits of guitars as you move up the price ladder from SE to S2 to CE to Core. If someone does think that the S2 is worth paying nearly double over an SE, then they will but others may think the difference in price isn't justified because in their opinion, they are not getting double the guitar. Even if an S2 is 20% better, in their minds, its still not that much better to warrant a 75% price jump - not when they can spend a bit more money pitting on a Tusq nut, locking tuners and branded quality PU's in the SE and still not spent as much.

For some people, $800 is a LOT of money to spend on any guitar considering what you can get - not just PRS guitars and not just 'new' guitars either. There is a LOT of competition in that $1k and under market so the SE has to compete with them (inc the quality these offer) more than compete with the S2 line. Its not always about whether the S2 is superior, its about whether or not the person buying thinks they 'better' enough to justify spending that bit more on one - if they have the budget to do so. As a person who buys Core, I have to justify whether the price premium for a 10top is worth the cost for example - in the UK that 'extra' is about the same cost of an SE Custom 24 btw - a whole guitar more expensive. If not, I can just buy a non-10top and save my money, buy another guitar or get some new gear instead of the 10-top. The principal is the same - is the more expensive options worth the extra and that will vary from person to person depending on how they value money and those extras.

If the quality of the Indonesian factory is worse than the Korean made models, then the difference becomes even more significant and that may well be significant enough to persuade someone to part with the extra money for an S2 - or maybe look at other brands and see what Ibanez, Fender, Gibson, Chapman, Schecter, Sterling Music Man etc offer around that price point. I think its more likely to push people away from PRS rather than encourage them to look at spending double and buying an S2 - of course some will but a lot of people will look to see what other guitars they can buy for the same money. In either case though, that really is individual to the person, their budget and perception of 'value' as well as their perception of those differences. There is not a one for all answer here.
 
The S2 and SE do not use the same woods (I believe the SE woods are sourced locally to the country where they are made), and the S2 will have a single piece body compared to multiple pieces in the SE. There are plenty of other differences between the two besides where they are made. Many of these differences are subtle, but do make a difference in feel/sound/looks, and these subtle differences add up for those that can discern the differences. So it is not simply a difference of a "made in America" vs "Made in (Insert country). If you can't tell a difference, good for you, and for those that can tell a difference, good for them. But, let's not try to kid ourselves and think that they are the same thing no matter where they are made, that is simply not true.
 
If the quality of the Indonesian factory is worse than the Korean made models, then the difference becomes even more significant and that may well be significant enough to persuade someone to part with the extra money for an S2

Currently SEs are available from both Korea and Indonesia, at least up to 2018 models. Do you know if SE manufacture has moved exclusively to Indonesia as of 2019? (sorry if this has already been answered).
 
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