Utter disappointment with PRS...

[Mozzi]

You probably hit the nail on the head. Before long, if you want a real, "10 Top" it's only going to be on a Private Stock.

Maybe, maybe not. The thing about Curly/flame Maple is that its a renewable source - it literally grows on (or should that be in) trees. Its not like oil, coal etc that is more limited. With the right management and the fact that 'wood' is being used less and less in other areas, there is the potential to have curly/flame Maple for ever. For every tree cut down to make instruments, another can be planted. I don't know how long it takes a tree to reach the 'right' age for 'harvesting' but its possible to have a sustainable source for Guitar woods.

As long as new trees are replanted for every tree cut down, then the likelihood of running out, or even the quality dropping is reduced. The circumstances that create flamed and quilt top maple is better understood now. I remember hearing Paul speak about some maple that was grown from the 'seed' of curly maple that didn't grow up to have any flame at all so they understand more the cause of the patterning. That then helps those that are growing maple to ensure they meet the criteria to end up flamed or even quilted.

Its possible that we may find a time where the quality isn't as good because this discovery about the causes of flame/quilt, may of come relatively recently and so it may take years for the trees planted after this to reach maturity for harvesting. The trees that do meet the criteria may well be in shorter supply whilst the new trees are growing.

As long as trees are replanted though - whether that's Maple, Mahogany, Rosewood etc, they can have a renewable source for the raw materials to make quality instruments. The more research they do on trees, the patterns they form, even the grain and resin that make the 'best' instruments - whether the tree grows 'slow' or 'fast', what conditions they grew in etc can be replicated to ensure a never ending supply because trees can be grown specifically for harvesting for instruments. Unlike food crops which may well be grown yearly for harvesting yearly, trees may well be grown for harvesting many years from now, long after many of us have gone but, with the right structure in place, trees can be grown specifically for harvesting for instruments. As long as every tree cut down has a new tree planted, there will ALWAYS be resources (unless some disaster occurs).

Because of the better understanding of the conditions needed to grow flame/quilt maple, the chances are that they could actually get more quality figuring. Have a higher abundance of figured maple specifically grown for the purpose.

 

[Mike Duncan]

It's a transparent opaque.

 

[Acnestes]

You may be right but there are many possible turns in this road. They could find a stand of Curley Maple trees with lots of curl in them. However, quilt tops are reserved already. Flame will logically be the next. If it happens it will drive up the cost of the ones on the used market.

Even if they do, the wood has to be aged before it can be used, and I assume they "naturally age" the good stuff.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the used market. A lot of aging baby boomers with a lot of nice guitars out there (myself among them), In some ways it might be a buyers market, but an economist I'm not.

 

[Acnestes]

And don't forget the climate! The maple sugar industry is being driven north out of New England because the climate is warming, so I assume it's affecting the lumber maples as well.

 

[shinksma]

I am still struggling to work out why it took a year in the first place. Does the dealer have a bad reputation with the the rep that they cannot get a 'regular' run guitar?

As far as I know, and this may be completely wrong, but PRS doesn't build guitars unless a dealer has ordered them, except for when a model is first released - then they build up stock at the factory to ship out to dealers on a first-come first-served basis. Every single guitar in a "production model" has to be ordered to be manufactured. And right now PRS has such a backlog that it takes 8 to 12 months. Brian's Guitars just received the last few (I think last few) of a WL order placed last April! The first few arrived in November (mine was one of them), but the last half of the batch took longer.

Yes, there are dealers out there still waiting to get Silver Skys (I just can't type "Skies"), even though there are obviously a lot of dealers who have stock for sale. When the new colors came out I bet PRS made a bunch before announcing to dealers, but once those were gone, any new orders from dealers (with or without a known customer) are now at the back of the line, after the still unfulfilled orders from before.

So yeah, unless a dealer has already ordered the guitar of your dreams hoping it will be sold to someone, you have to place a new order through them, and you will wait 8 to 12 months right now.

 

[Mozzi]

As far as I know, and this may be completely wrong, but PRS doesn't build guitars unless a dealer has ordered them, except for when a model is first released - then they build up stock at the factory to ship out to dealers on a first-come first-served basis. Every single guitar in a "production model" has to be ordered to be manufactured. And right now PRS has such a backlog that it takes 8 to 12 months. Brian's Guitars just received the last few (I think last few) of a WL order placed last April! The first few arrived in November (mine was one of them), but the last half of the batch took longer.

Yes, there are dealers out there still waiting to get Silver Skys (I just can't type "Skies"), even though there are obviously a lot of dealers who have stock for sale. When the new colors came out I bet PRS made a bunch before announcing to dealers, but once those were gone, any new orders from dealers (with or without a known customer) are now at the back of the line, after the still unfulfilled orders from before.

So yeah, unless a dealer has already ordered the guitar of your dreams hoping it will be sold to someone, you have to place a new order through them, and you will wait 8 to 12 months right now.

I can understand that certain tiers - Wood Library and Private Stock for example would require a length of time from order until they can be fulfilled but I do find it somewhat 'odd' that the guitars PRS make as their 'core' models to go out for distribution to retailers that can be hanging in a store for 'years' until the right person comes along and buys, could not tweak a MODCAT to fulfil a reps request. There are shops that have 'new' PRS guitars that were built 2yrs ago and have not sold yet. Instead of making one of those 'general' core guitars for no-one, no store in particular, could not make a requested 'core' with one of the 'general' 10tops and in a certain colour scheme.

As I understand it, the batch of 'general' guitars destined for say Canada, would end up with a PRS Rep. That Rep would travel round to all the PRS stockists with a van load of guitars and the retailer would pick the ones they want to sell - to replace stock that they have already sold. For example, if they have sold 5 in the last month, they may pick another 5 to sell. I don't know whether the retailer buys the guitars as stock or pay after selling but the principal remains the same. The retailer is somewhat limited by the stock that the Rep has access to. I don't know how often the Rep gets new stock to distribute but the retailer isn't dealing with the factory, but a PRS Rep for their area.

Maybe the Rep has to clear a certain number of guitars in their 'stock' before they can put in an order for 'new' stock and in that order for 'new' stock, maybe that's when PRS actually gets the order and can create a 'MODCAT' for a 'specific' model with a 10top in the colour they want. Maybe its the fact that the shops are not selling enough PRS guitars in Canada to clear enough of the 'stock' the rep has before the rep can actually place an order.

For myself in the UK, PRS could well be sending a 'large' and 'frequent' batch of guitars to PRS Europe and from there, many Reps that are serving numerous different areas (Country's like the UK, Germany, France etc) so stock is clearing more frequently so new stock is more frequent. As someone said, Canada has around half the population of the UK, let alone all the country's of the EU (not that the UK will belong to that for much longer - no comment on this as I don't want politics to become part of this discussion). Europe as a whole must sell a LOT more guitars than Canada - just on sheer population differences. Therefore, there is a greater chance that IF I were to make a special request, the Rep for the music retailers in my area may have a better chance of sourcing a 'core' build in the colour and with a '10top' because they have access to all the stock that is coming into PRS Europe (a high chance that the 'spec' required was built and sent as one of the 'random' choice guitars that Reps take) or can be in amongst the next bulk delivery because of the more frequent stock replacements.

For example, if I wanted a Custom 24-08 in Fire Burst Red with a 10top, the amount of Stock coming into PRS Europe for distribution may have at least 1 that the Rep can source for the retailer to sell. They may even have more inc some non-10tops that they could photograph for the retailer to email me in case they catch my eye instead. If not, then they can ask PRS to create at least 1 to be in the next shipment to PRS Europe - which because its covering the whole of Europe, new deliveries are happing much more frequently than to the Rep in Canada who has a much smaller population and as such can't order 'new' stock for months until they have cleared a certain percentage of the stock they already hold.

Having had more time since my initial comments on this to actually think it through, I can see why it may take 8-12months for those in Canada. The Rep cannot make a request for a 'specific' core with a 10top and a regular colour scheme. Its not that PRS can't make it instead of all those 'random' guitars that are shipped to reps for distribution to sit on walls until someone buys, its because the Rep can't make that order until they have cleared more stock. PRS aren't going to ship just 1 guitar to that Rep so PRS won't receive that request until the Rep places a 'bulk' order to replace the stock they have distributed.

It perhaps explains why I see more turnover, more stores with 'new' stock every couple of months - I have the whole of the UK music stores serving twice the population of Canada so statistically, there is likely to be a greater number of PRS guitars sold and therefore restocked by Reps and more frequent deliveries to PRS Europe.

Anyway, I could be wrong on this but it makes more sense and maybe explains why it takes so long. Not only are you waiting for the rep to make the request to PRS, then you have to wait for the Rep to clear stock as well as PRS to make that guitar, before the rep gets the 'batch' with the guitar requested.

 

[Shawn@PRS]

Hi All - we are working with the dealer to replace the guitar in question, so I'm closing this thread. Cheers.