Is it time to start considering solid state?

[]-[@n$0Ma☩!©]

Fvck off

Don't hold back now, PfennRock.

 

[11top]

Don't hold back now, PfennRock.

Subtlety is my thing.

 

[]-[@n$0Ma☩!©]

Subtlety is my thing.

 

[Em7]

You seem to have a real issue understanding that people have opinions that differ from yours, and that there’s not one thing “wrong” with them if they do.

I do not have a problem with people holding onto old technology. I have a problem with people holding old technology up as the gold standard and closing their minds to anything else. The reality is that it was difficult to give away a blackface or silverface Fender in the eighties. Even Randall Smith has mentioned it many times. The same thing can be said for older 4-hole Marshalls. The rebirth of the blackface amp can be attributed to one guitarist; namely, SRV. The "Hat and Strat" movement that was a shot in the arm for older amp technology was the result of backlash to grunge's removal of the guitar hero from popular music. Outside of new wave/progressive, the eighties was the decade where guitar made its biggest strides. Guitarists picked up on pioneering work by Uli Jon Roth and Ritchie Blackmore. These two guitarists were the first rockers brave enough to avoid the pentatonic minor trap. The problem was by the end of the eighties songs had become little more than delivery vehicles for bombastic, technically advanced solos. When combined with the image and other excesses from the eighties, it was no, just no, I am not going back for a lot of guitarists. Eighties harder-edged guitar is not possible with tube technology alone. The 5150 comes close, but it is an incredibly unstable design that is just itching to break into uncontrolled oscillation. It is just impossible to get enough gain to play that fluidly without resorting to what is seen as the anti-Christ to many members of this forum; namely, solid-state circuitry.

The reality is that tone is subjective. I do not consider solid-state tone to be inferior to that of tube tone. It is just different. The tone used by the early electric blues masters was nothing like that of the "white boy" blues musicians who came later. The early electric blues masters had no problem switching to solid-state amps because they did not exploit tube technology's foibles (listen to the old Chess recordings and one will see what I mean). It is the foibles of tube technology that digital modeling is seeking to recreate and guitar has become stagnant because of it. We have even gone back to being stuck in pentatonic minor jail for the most part. Modern country (a.k.a. country pop) is little more than repackaged heartland rock. It appeals to the fly-over states, but it is nowhere near as popular in the Mid-Atlantic, the Northeast, or on the West Coast. It kind of follows the political divide between the fly-over states and the coastal states that are not part of the Deep South. In my humble opinion, the move from LA to Nashville is major part of the problem.

If we are going to have a new generation of guitarists who keep guitar alive, we are going to need a new generation of guitar technology combined with a fresh take on the instrument. I personally embrace the end of life for tube technology. Sure, I am bit sad, but I see it as an opportunity for gifted young musicians to push guitar in a new direction without being confined by a generation or two of guitarists whose idea of good tone is based on circuits that were created in the fifties.

I will end this reply with analogy. When I started to work with computer systems in late 1979 as an extremely bright, but wet behind the ears fresh out of high school kid, the first computer with whom I worked had circuitry composed of transisters, resistors, diodes, and ferrite core memory in which a one or a zero was stored by the direction in which a core was magnetized. That computer was a UNIVAC 1218, which was a MILSPEC version of the UNIVAC 418.

Here is what it looked like:

One booted this machine by entering the starting address of the boot routine in read-only memory in the machine's program counter, setting a code in the status register, and then toggling the "run" switch. The machine would then load the executive (early operating system) off of a tape drive. When compared to a modern computer, the word "primitive" does not begin to describe this machine. However, the 1218 was state-of-the-art when it was designed in the sixties. I left that shipboard data center and transferred to the National Security Agency attached to the Naval Security Group Activity, Fort Meade where I initially worked with Cray-1 super computers that were front-ended by CDC 7600s (which were scientific mainframes). Today, the cell phone I use has more power than any of these computers by a large margin. To me, it seems silly that we prefer technology that was created before the first computer I used was designed when we could be using the gear equivalent of a cell phone.

 

[RickP]

As you say, tone is different, and the analogy doesn’t really apply because tube amps and modelers are both capable of generating tones applicable, even preferable, in music making today. As a child of the 60s, trust me, I’ve seen the tech come a long, long way. I’m a fan! But, even as a fan/adopter/regular user of modelers, I still say there is something about playing a tube amp in its sweet spot that I don’t get from the modeler. It doesn’t matter why, it just matters that for me and thousands of others in all age groups, it does. That makes the tech valid and useful, and arguably “better” for those who prefer it. It’s not wrong, closed-minded, or any of the other inferences you have placed on it. It’s the right tool for the job for a long, long list of very successful current guitarists.

I’ve made my point, so I’ll leave it to each reader to decide what they think on the subject. And you know, I have no issue with anyone who disagrees, including the OP. It’s not personal, and I think Em7 is an intelligent and decent guy. The crux of my effort here was to say that there is such a thing as disagreement without condescension. Like Dave Mason said “There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy. There’s only you and me and we just disagree.”

 

[singularity6]

I’ve made my point, so I’ll leave it to each reader to decide what they think on the subject.

I did say that purists will never back down because I already know their opinion, and I'm not interested in hearing from them. Yet they still reply with the expected tenacity (which is the nature of a public forum.)

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Would this impending tube shortage make anyone out there switch?

I did say that purists will never back down because I already know their opinion, and I'm not interested in hearing from them. Yet they still reply with the expected tenacity (which is the nature of a public forum.)

Interesting to start a thread asking a question, and then say you're not interested in hearing peoples opinions. Especially interesting that the person you responded to has over and over said he's gigged modelers for years, so not a "tube only" guy at all.

Saying that tube amps still sound better doesn't make one a "purist" or tube snob.

How do you ask "is it time to start considering..." and then not expect people to answer the question?

 

[singularity6]

Interesting to start a thread asking a question, and then say you're not interested in hearing peoples opinions. Especially interesting that the person you responded to has over and over said he's gigged modelers for years, so not a "tube only" guy at all.

I wasn't disagreeing with that person. Apologies if it came across that way.

Saying that tube amps still sound better doesn't make one a "purist" or tube snob.

Could you point out where this came from? I do not recall saying that tube amps didn't sound better.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I did say that purists will never back down because I already know their opinion, and I'm not interested in hearing from them. Yet they still reply with the expected tenacity (which is the nature of a public forum.)

I'm just question how you open the tubes vs. solid state question without expecting people from all sides of the equation to answer

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I wasn't disagreeing with that person. Apologies if it came across that way.

My fault on misunderstanding that. I've never feared not being able to get tubes because I don't really use that many. And, I never feared it enough to think I needed to "stock up for a lifetime." This is the first real time that I've ever had a concern about being able to get them, and much of that is driven by the panic buying. The same mindset that had people buying 6 months worth of toilet paper and running the stores out, had people mass ordering tubes when this stuff started in the Ukraine. A few weeks ago, you had guys buying what in essence for them would be at least a 20 year supply of tubes all at once. So now if I do blow a 6L6 on the Archon, it might be parked for a while.

I doubt I'll buy a solid state amp any time soon. If forced, I'd just switch to all modeling. It's all I use live now anyway.

 

[singularity6]

I'm just question how you open the tubes vs. solid state question without expecting people from all sides of the equation to answer

Oh, I expect them to answer. But they're not going to say anything new.

I'm more interested in hearing from those who are making the switch, or may consider doing so.

 

[singularity6]

I doubt I'll buy a solid state amp any time soon. If forced, I'd just switch to all modeling. It's all I use live now anyway.

This is actually more related to where I'm coming from with my OP. Almost all modern modeling amps are solid state. Many guitar players have been making the switch. For some, they can't tell much of a difference in the tone. A lot find the convenience to be a significant advantage.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Oh, I expect them to answer. But they're not going to say anything new.

I'm more interested in hearing from those who are making the switch, or may consider doing so.

Yes, but the sticking point with most I know, and with myself, is that tube amps still sound the best of any of the various options. So, while they aren't saying anything new, what they are saying IS the big deal in why people won't switch. So I get what you're saying about wanting to hear the opinions of those who are switching, but many will state their 'same ole" about tube sounding better as the reason they aren't switching.

That said, most of us here use modeling and tubes regularly already, and have for years. Other than a few hard core holdouts who shall remain nameless (cough-Les-cough) we all used both for a while. If I get an hour when the wife isn't home or before she crashes, tubes only! But 90% of the time I play after she goes to bed, so modeler. Every time I play live, modeler.

 

[Em7]

I am putting my money where my mouth is by putting two of the three remaining tube amps I have up for sale. I am only holding on to the last one because I am waiting for retail prices to increase, so that I can get more on the used market. Now, that I am retired, I am considering investing some time in my solid-state ideas.

 

[Lola]

NO! Don’t do it. Tubes baby is where it’s at!

 

[Em7]

NO! Don’t do it. Tubes baby is where it’s at!

Not with me, I like well-designed solid-state amps as well. I have been playing guitar for 45 years. I gigged for 20 of those years with tube and solid-state amps. A tube amp is near worthless for home practice. People point to Champs, but Champs and other single-ended tube amps do not sound that great. Plus, the hum from the power supply is too high. By the time even 15W short signal path tube amp is up to its sweet spot, it is too loud for home practice for me. I am not a fan of small signal tube distortion (i.e. preamp distortion), so I am not a fan of tube amps with long signal paths and master volumes (i.e., pretty much everything from Mesa Boogie). If I need to use a pedal or an attenuator to use an amp at home, I am going to buy an amp I can use at home and that means solid-state. If I want a tube amp, I will build one; however, there is nothing new to be learned or new ground to break, so I am not sure that it is worth my time.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I am putting my money where my mouth is by putting two of the three remaining tube amps I have up for sale. I am only holding on to the last one because I am waiting for retail prices to increase, so that I can get more on the used market. Now, that I am retired, I am considering investing some time in my solid-state ideas.

You clearly know enough to have some fun with solid state. Most who’ve ever attempted to build a higher end SS amp for commercial purposes run into the perception issue. It’s pretty much as expensive to build a true higher end SS amp as it is to build a tube amp, and nobody… ok, ALMOST nobody, will pay as much for solid state as they will for tubes.

And while you can get the clipping part to where most will be happy with it, the feel part seems to be tough. And yes, I’m aware that the “feel” is wildly and intentionally different from one tube amp to another.

 

[singularity6]

You clearly know enough to have some fun with solid state. Most who’ve ever attempted to build a higher end SS amp for commercial purposes run into the perception issue. It’s pretty much as expensive to build a true higher end SS amp as it is to build a tube amp, and nobody… ok, ALMOST nobody, will pay as much for solid state as they will for tubes.

And while you can get the clipping part to where most will be happy with it, the feel part seems to be tough. And yes, I’m aware that the “feel” is wildly and intentionally different from one tube amp to another.

I dunno... the Bandit 112 seems to please a lot of folks. They're not too bad on the wallet, either. Quilter and Orange also have some reputable amps.

 

[11top]

Seems to me the answer is:

Tubes? Yes

Solid State? Yes


Should I run for office?

 

[dmatthews]

Seems to me the answer is:

Tubes? Yes

Solid State? Yes


Should I run for office?

Yes.