Dispelling Tube Amp Myths

ScottR said:
I'm no Em7 but, I think they are modeling models of other models.

I'm from Alabama so that's all I've got.
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Just meant they’re modeling those horrid old, badly engineered tube amps. The pinnacle of success is to get the sweet spot of that tone consistently, with control of volume. But the tone of a tube amp is the goal. Nothing mythical about that.
 
Em7 said:
While amp designers are taking advantage of poor engineering practices today, it is still poor engineering.
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You have several interesting thoughts here, so I've separated them to ask questions about different phases of your post.

For this one above, could you elaborate further on your thoughts on this? I'm thinking that if you start throwing full range OTs in amps, you're simply going to have... or at least to WANT to limit the frequencies in some other part of the circuit. Given the guitars usable frequency range (which you have pointed out) and the frequencies at which the "more desirable" harmonics fall in, are you suggesting there is a reason, or more importantly, and advantage, to a more full range circuit? And as far as the other aspect of the power section, amp designers already know how to make big trannys and big caps for amps that DO need high output, more control, etc. and lesser trannys and caps for ones they want to bloom and sag... So my question is, are you still saying that is "poor engineering?" If so, what would you suggest to improve the amp.

Things like this are part of the character of an amp. That's why I mentioned earlier the intentional differences in a hi fi designed amp, where you would use full frequency transformers, plenty of power supply cap capacity, circuit designed to be flat, negative feedback to stablize, etc.
Em7 said:
The only area where tube amps still rule is white boy blues and blues-rock, and even there, people are starting to see the light. A tube amp today is as much a status symbol as it is a piece of music gear.
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I mean, I am a white boy and I do play some blues and blues rock, but speaking for only myself, that's not the reason I have tube amps, and it's also not as a status symbol. A new Axe or Kemper both cost more than my Bogner did new. I don't know that I've ever heard a tube amp called a status symbol. Not sure I get what you're meaning here.
Em7 said:
Everything that can be done with tubes can be done more reliably with analog solid-state. It just takes more engineering skill and a market that is open to spending real money on a solid-state amp, good luck with overcoming that bias.
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This is more like the first one. Can you mention a few designs that have proven that solid state can do anything tubes can do? I mean, I know it can make sounds and all that, but do you have any designs from the past that you think prove that SS can sound as good as tubes? If so, please let me know which ones you think accomplish that.

The most common solid state amps that I've heard mentioned as being "high end" are the Pearce stuff. I know Holdsworth used it alot and honestly he's one of my two all time musical genius musicians. But I never loved his tone. I'm sure the amps are cable of more/other tones, but Alan always went for a horn type tone, and while it was "his thing" I never loved his tone.

That said, I know it costs almost or as much to design a true high end solid state guitar amp as it does a tube amp. I know that most guitarists resist paying as much for SS as they will readily pay for tubes. But, IMHO, it's because when it's come right down to what really matters, the tone, the SS never was as good. And that's why guitarists continue to resist spending big money for SS amps. I think that if the Valvestate or Peavey Transtube or any other solid state design from the past "really had" sounded as good as tubes, guitarist would have jumped on board, but every time they put them head to head, the SS didn't sound as good, so you either bought it because it was "good enough and cheaper" or you didn't buy it. But I'm expressing my thoughts here. If you disagree, please tell me what designs or brands you think have equaled the tube amps in tone and feel. Trust me when I say, if things don't change soon, there will be a lot more guys looking for an alternative to tubes. But again, IMHO, even when/if that does happen, modeling has already stolen that market... and it's because solid state had 75 years to take the lead from tubes, and never did. And yes, sorry for the long post, but I know that none of that means that the best SS has already been done. MAYBE there is something better yet to come. But you have to admit that great minds have had decades to build something solid state that was good enough to replace tubes, and nobody has really even come close yet.
 
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The Science on this post is so cool and interesting and I am nerdy enough and techie enough to get it.
BUT
There are often times the human condition defies science.
Technically amps can easily cover a wider frequency range but the user will often find them woofy or shrill , their will be artifacts.
When I was building pedals I spent lots of time looking at waveforms and comparing that to what I liked sound wise , then how that waveform effected the input portion of an amp , then ultimately the power section. ( not just guitar amps , I tried a wide range of amps , preamps and Mixers )
I found it much more difficult to design a pedal ( Gain or Compression or Boost ) that sounded "right" on a solid state or higher end audio circuit.
I watched those circuits and amps struggle with an analog square wave or any single clipping , boost , basically turning to noise any signal it couldn't process , ( like a video signal acts )
It amazes me the happy accidents that often created the tones we chase and love today.
Its so interesting that a Klon or a Dumble , an original Marshall Plexi etc should be no problem to recreate and folks get close some might say better , some not all that certain is that its never 100% the same, Like trying to see what the Mona Lisa looked like new.
Thanks Em7 for another fun post :)
 
I love Em7 for setting science forth in this thread.

Nonetheless, in my experience recording a great number of amps - tube, solid state and modelers - tube amps sound the way I want amps to sound, and other amps don't.

If there's a solid state amp on the market that will 100% duplicate the sound of my HXDA, DG30, Mesa Fillmore 50, and Mesa Lone Star, please point me in that direction.

I haven't heard one. But I'm open-minded.

That's my bottom line.

What I don't understand is a lot of folks' need to replace something that works with something that's not as viable as an instrument to make music. If tube amps work, I don't understand the point of replacing them with something that's designed to approximate their sound. Why not just use the real deal?

Because none of this sh!t matters if it doesn't improve music. On another front, Western Electric is going to start making guitar amp tubes in the US of A. I've read reviews of their hifi tubes. That's good news.
 
DreamTheaterRules said:
That said, I know it costs almost or as much to design a true high end solid state guitar amp as it does a tube amp. I know that most guitarists resist paying as much for SS as they will readily pay for tubes. But, IMHO, it's because when it's come right down to what really matters, the tone, the SS never was as good. And that's why guitarists continue to resist spending big money for SS amps. I think that if the Valvestate or Peavey Transtube or any other solid state design from the past "really had" sounded as good as tubes, guitarist would have jumped on board, but every time they put them head to head, the SS didn't sound as good, so you either bought it because it was "good enough and cheaper" or you didn't buy it. But I'm expressing my thoughts here. If you disagree, please tell me what designs or brands you think have equaled the tube amps in tone and feel. Trust me when I say, if things don't change soon, there will be a lot more guys looking for an alternative to tubes. But again, IMHO, even when/if that does happen, modeling has already stolen that market... and it's because solid state had 75 years to take the lead from tubes, and never did. And yes, sorry for the long post, but I know that none of that means that the best SS has already been done. MAYBE there is something better yet to come. But you have to admit that great minds have had decades to build something solid state that was good enough to replace tubes, and nobody has really even come close yet.
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This is why you and I must be related somehow. ;)
 
Thread title change request: Admin, please change thread title to Dispelling Myths of all types.
 
RickP said:
What, exactly, are digital modelers modeling?
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Digital models are discrete approximations of transfer functions. Transfer functions are continuous (analog) functions that model outputs based on inputs of a system, subsystem, or component. Transfer functions are created from differential equations.
 
Em7 said:
Digital models are discrete approximations of transfer functions. Transfer functions are continuous (analog) functions that model outputs based on inputs of a system, subsystem, or component. Transfer functions are created from differential equations.
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Point taken. I meant that they are doing all of that to replicate the pleasing result of guitar signals passed through and modified by an analog tube circuit. Point being that this sound, however created, is still deemed useful and useable today. That these tones remain the target of the technology more than validates the genuine article.
 
I think my corvette is flawed because it doesn't have wings to have full range of motion like an airplane. It'd be nice to drive on roads but have wings made for flying because it gives full range, even though I don't really want to fly.

I mean guitar speakers need to be able to play drum sounds and synth bass right?....so why do I like my V30, creams, greens, Emminece, ect. ect. than those full range speakers on my guitar amps.....hmm...why don't "full range" speakers intended for modelers work on the real amps for me? Tubes...vs...solid state....If you like solid state play it.....if you like tube play it....apparently a player either hears the difference and cares or doesn't. You can analyze the science behind a smile....but not was causes the brain to trigger it.

True story...I saw a wood library on reverb that caused me to smile...but my wife wasn't smiling at it.
 
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