Do you think guitar solos & improvisation will return to mainstream music?

[Huggy Love]

It was kinda stale at the end of the 60s, and then, a whole host of players came along in the 70s, and basically removed a lot of the limitations.
They played with more Distortion, more blues feel, bigger louder, longer solos. New techniques were incorporated. Etcetera.

Oddly enough I agree with a lot of what you say, our views are somewhat similar except for one huge misstatement IMHO.

The late 60's is when Hendrix, Santana, Zeppelin, Sabbath, and a host of others exploded on the scene with guitar sounds that shook the world, not the 70's, check the dates if you don't trust me.

I don't know who to blame it on, although you seem set on the notion that the advanced rock shredders like Satriani & Vai are to blame for what made guitar music stagnant. True, they made it more clinical, slightly sterile, and unattainable for players with less dexterity, but you can also look at Cobain, punk music, etc and the dumbing down of musicianship, or the Djent/Numetal cats for making meticulous semi-interesting riffs and overpracticed fills out of 90% distortion and 10% tone. Maybe it's just the negative aspects of all of those, not sure, but when you have an example of what you consider forward moving guitar work, you let us know.


...... and I'll just put this out there: Music is a business, and the businessmen control it, they dictate what gets promoted or not. How many times have you heard someone talk about some good guitar music without saying "they're totally underground".

But that might be a subject for another thread.

 

[CandidPicker]

I don't know, @HuggyB, I think the 80's hair bands outdistanced shredding by a stretch. Simply because the music had listenable structure, not virtuoso playing. I'm not absolutely sure shredding held much music business sway, for lack of danceable beat, or toe-tappability. You can't possibly digest what a shredder plays because there's not enough space between notes for pausing, phrasing, or building a story.

My feeling is that any music that has a feel-good 'swing' to it (listen to Josh Smith's TrueFire lessons on this) will motivate audiences to tap their fingers or toes or step into the aisles and dance alone or with their partners.

Music that has too many time signature changes, tempo alterations, or lack of structure cannot easily be successful. Simply because people can't feel good with the music. Give something people will enjoy that stands the test of time, and that music will be memorable.

 

[Boogie]

You can't possibly digest what a shredder plays because there's not enough space between notes for pausing, phrasing, or building a story.

That contains a liberal slathering of generalization and, “that’s like, your opinion, man”. Pointing a finger at an easy target, Joe Satriani has evolved exponentially from the early years of a gazillion notes to a seriously genius song formula. Black Swans and Wormhole Wizards is a perfect example of a release that defies his early reputation. It may not be for everyone, but it’s far from a blizzard of notes.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Shred needs to die before the guitar can move forward

Membership Revoked!

 

[Huggy Love]

I don't know, @HuggyB, I think the 80's hair bands outdistanced shredding by a stretch. Simply because the music had listenable structure, not virtuoso playing. I'm not absolutely sure shredding held much music business sway, for lack of danceable beat, or toe-tappability. You can't possibly digest what a shredder plays because there's not enough space between notes for pausing, phrasing, or building a story.

My feeling is that any music that has a feel-good 'swing' to it (listen to Josh Smith's TrueFire lessons on this) will motivate audiences to tap their fingers or toes or step into the aisles and dance alone or with their partners.

Music that has too many time signature changes, tempo alterations, or lack of structure cannot easily be successful. Simply because people can't feel good with the music. Give something people will enjoy that stands the test of time, and that music will be memorable.

I like a lot of the thing you say around here but that one is all over the place.

Hairbands "outdistancing" shredders? ...... I don't know what that's about, do you mean in sales? longevity? In what respect? I think Satriani sold a lot of records back then if I'm not mistaken.

?Josh Smith? Who the (bleep) is that? Never heard of him, so why is he some authority?

... and the last sentence kinda describes fusion and avant garde more than shredder music or even solos/improve in mainstream music, so I don't know what's up there.

I think your deep seeded hatred for cats that play a lot of notes has made you bitter.

 

[Tremontinator]

HUGGY

This is another topic entirely but, I absolutely despise Jimi Hendrix and I'm completely sick to death if people riding his D even he was a terrible player at best.

Yeah, some debut albums came in the latter part of the 60s but, the whole scene really changed in the 70s.
I'll call it a grey area.

I like Joe Satriani. Most of his music has melody. A concept that is completely lost on shredders.
Steve Vai is a poor man's Joe Satriani, and a poor imitation.

Cobain and all that dumbing down of the music is a symptom. Acrobatic playing is there cause.

It's the same thing as having a runny nose is the symptom. Having a cold is the cause.


Candy brought up a good point. If it ain't a simple 4/4, nobody wants to hear it. Music is supposed to make people dance, tap their toes, and headbang.

Great points, Candy



DTR
Shred sucks. Deal with it. :-* :-*
So does Dream Theater, now that you mention it. They're part of the problem. Oh, and Petrucci especially sucks. Not just antagonizing. That's actually a scientifically-proven fact.


This is good. We're having a discussion.


I think almost everything that has moved the guitar forward, has been some sort of blues thing.

[I've been arguing with myself about EVH and tapping. I'm going to say that definitely isn't a blues thing. There's no feel to it. It's just more flashy B.S. that says 'look at me!']

I'm going to say that the next thing which will come along, advance the guitar, and help repopularize our music, is going to be something with a heavy blues influence.

Maybe, it won't be anything new at all. Could be a fresh take on old ideas.

Maybe somebody will come along and combine Johnny Winter and Bo Diddley

Maybe somebody will take George Thorogood, and play it in a key that isn't G


I would like to hear Randy Rhoads combined with blues legends. Some might say that would be Zakk Wylde. I say it hasn't been tried yet

 

[Tremontinator]

DTR

I'm sorry bro. I'm not trying to insult or antagonize you. What I said above sounds exactly like that. My bad, bro.

I'm just saying Dream Theater is just one more damn neo-classical act that puts complexity over listenability. Complexity over melody.

And John Petrucci it's just one more shred clown who puts more notes in a solo instead of more feel and melody. Technique over soul.

I hear guys like Petrucci, and I hear "LOOK! AT! ME! I AM SO GREAT! LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!"


I'm not impressed. I'm disgusted.



Look, I'll say it like this

Self-serving, ego, pride, arrogance, self-importance, and self-righteousness are the worst traits in people.

Shred, djent, numetal, and neo-classical bands are the personification of those traits.

 

[Huggy Love]

HUGGY

This is another topic entirely but, I absolutely despise Jimi Hendrix and I'm completely sick to death if people riding his D even he was a terrible player at best.

Yeah, some debut albums came in the latter part of the 60s but, the whole scene really changed in the 70s.
I'll call it a grey area.

I like Joe Satriani. Most of his music has melody. A concept that is completely lost on shredders.
Steve Vai is a poor man's Joe Satriani, and a poor imitation.

Cobain and all that dumbing down of the music is a symptom. Acrobatic playing is there cause.

It's the same thing as having a runny nose is the symptom. Having a cold is the cause.


Candy brought up a good point. If it ain't a simple 4/4, nobody wants to hear it. Music is supposed to make people dance, tap their toes, and headbang.

Great points, Candy



DTR
Shred sucks. Deal with it. :-* :-*
So does Dream Theater, now that you mention it. They're part of the problem. Oh, and Petrucci especially sucks. Not just antagonizing. That's actually a scientifically-proven fact.


This is good. We're having a discussion.


I think almost everything that has moved the guitar forward, has been some sort of blues thing.

[I've been arguing with myself about EVH and tapping. I'm going to say that definitely isn't a blues thing. There's no feel to it. It's just more flashy B.S. that says 'look at me!']

I'm going to say that the next thing which will come along, advance the guitar, and help repopularize our music, is going to be something with a heavy blues influence.

Maybe, it won't be anything new at all. Could be a fresh take on old ideas.

Maybe somebody will come along and combine Johnny Winter and Bo Diddley

Maybe somebody will take George Thorogood, and play it in a key that isn't G


I would like to hear Randy Rhoads combined with blues legends. Some might say that would be Zakk Wylde. I say it hasn't been tried yet

Wow, funny how this post makes me feel the opposite of what I stated before, I guess we don't think similar. I'm not a Hendrix diehard and think a lot of what he did was sloppy at times, but to say that just put your credibility in the toilet.

Your "grey area" theory holds no water, again, read up, check dates, you might learn something.

Randy Rhoads would NOT fit in well in a blues setting and Zakk Wylde is a top notch player that is mostly known as the guy who filled in for Randy and Jake E. Lee, .... and not much more.

I'm an old fart that hates drum machines and programmed music but it seems from what you say that you hate most of guitar playing because you stated negative views of almost all the big names in guitar history. Instead of trashing these greats or slamming the members here for liking them, why not go back to my first question: Got any examples of what you think is moving forward guitar work?

Until you can come up with anything, understand that your opinions won't have a lot of value.

 

[Huggy Love]

Look, I'll say it like this

Self-serving, ego, pride, arrogance, self-importance, and self-righteousness are the worst traits in people.

.... so is hypocrisy.

 

[CandidPicker]

That contains a liberal slathering of generalization and, “that’s like, your opinion, man”. Pointing a finger at an easy target, Joe Satriani has evolved exponentially from the early years of a gazillion notes to a seriously genius song formula. Black Swans and Wormhole Wizards is a perfect example of a release that defies his early reputation. It may not be for everyone, but it’s far from a blizzard of notes.

Of course. Satriani from his early days had far more structure than Yngwie did, or at least Joe's musicianship was more relevant to the music scene than the thousand-note-per-minute players. TBH, I'd personally even listen more often to Joe's music than Yngwie's, simply because there was more melodic content, and also because I was never really a fan of Yngwie's classical baroque style of music.

Others may have their own opinions, but as sweep-picking and tapping became popular with the shredders, so did the faster-paced music. I think that as we age, we all wish to just slow, and turn down, instead of speed up, and turn up.

It's known as adjusting to your audience, and remembering that, yes, we can hear you. No need for talking (playing) faster or shouting (being annoyingly loud).

Words to live by.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

So, Terminator,

This seems like a good time for one of my "life quotes." I've always said...

"Perspective is 90% of reality."

I've always felt it's way to easy to judge someone else but you have no right to do so til you've walked a mile in his shoes. I know people who were GOOD solid people, who worked hard, had great family and life values, would give you the shirt off their back if you were in need, whose lives are ravaged by drugs and have stolen from their own family and best friends.

Anyway, all that to say this. I know "my" perspective base. I obviously don't know much about yours. While this is a pretty unfiltered "what you love sucks" I don't take it as a direct personal insult or attack. So, not like if you said "your wife is ugly" or "you have bad breath caused by gingivitis." But still, a pretty strong attack on some things I do love dearly. So that we can better understand each other, here's where I'm coming from.

For most of my life, (other than religion) there were two predominant factors and loves in my life. Music and sports. I grew up in a home of musicians and singers. I took classical piano lessons from ages 5-14. When you are classically trained, Virtuoso is not a bad word, it's an honor that you hope you may some day achieve. Technical skills are drilled into you. Moving forward to harder and harder music. Your love of music drives you to practice for hours and get better and better. Not so you can say "hey, look at me," but so you can achieve the satisfaction of knowing you can play the most beautiful and most difficult music. When I stopped playing piano it was only because I wanted to play guitar. I was very advanced and actually had several colleges talk to me about music scholarships when I was in Jr. High.

And sports... I'll try to keep this short. If you play sports "for fun" that's great. I did too. Only problem was, I never had fun losing. I had an intense desire to be the best. I was all state in two sports, and had D1 major top 20 scholarship offers in basketball, but I had a knee that was a problem and was born about 5 years too soon. I shot over 60% in high school and in college despite never having the knee fixed, but the 3 point shot didn't come in til after I was out of college. One of my D1 offers was good even if I had to sit a year to have my knee fixed, but was contingent on the 3 pointer being voted in my Sr year of high school and it wasn't voted in that time. I played competitive softball to my early 50s. Played left center on a team that had no other members over 30 just two years ago.

Point is, I worked hard to be the best at what I loved. When I was younger, as much as I liked guys like BB King, I shook my head and thought "I could play just like him 2 weeks after I started playing guitar. How hard is that?" Honestly, I still feel that a lot of blues is just TOO simple. Oh, don't go there. I totally get the "feel" aspect. But if you get the feel, the notes are easy.

So, from a classical background and with a competitive nature, it seems I'm probably going to gravitate towards the guys with extreme technical skills more than the guys playing really simple things. That said, Hendrix and Trower are two of my top 10 guitar players ever. So trust me, I DO get it! But so are Alan Holdsworth, Al Di Meola and John Petrucci. So I get that too.

For years, (when I was younger and much more competitive) I thought all the shred bashers were just guys who couldn't play, so they put them down. And that is a common thing. Just like the guys who couldn't make the Jr. High basketball team but they constantly criticize the elite college coaches and/or players.

It's all perspective though. IMHO. Saw a guy at TGP say this weekend "I went to see Yngwie once, but in the very first song, he played every note and every riff he knew, then all he did was keep repeating them in all the other songs so there was nothing else to hear. I could have left after one song and known everything he could play." And I almost countered with "and that is not true of the blues guys?"

Music isn't a competition. Took me a while to grasp that, but I have. Trust me, if this was 20 years ago and you slammed Jimi and Petrucci like that in a thread, the first words out of my mouth would have been "well lets cut heads and see what you've got." Now, I'm a kinder, gentler DTR. And I think that, but I don't say it out loud. LMAO!!!!!!!! (just kidding!)

 

[CandidPicker]

I like a lot of the thing you say around here but that one is all over the place.

Hairbands "outdistancing" shredders? ...... I don't know what that's about, do you mean in sales? longevity? In what respect? I think Satriani sold a lot of records back then if I'm not mistaken.

?Josh Smith? Who the (bleep) is that? Never heard of him, so why is he some authority?

... and the last sentence kinda describes fusion and avant garde more than shredder music or even solos/improve in mainstream music, so I don't know what's up there.

I think your deep seeded hatred for cats that play a lot of notes has made you bitter.

As a marketed age group from the 80s when both hair bands and shredders began making inroads in the music scene. Bands like Motley Crue, Poison, Warrant, Lynch Mob, Dokken, etc.

Josh Smith has been around since he was about 6 years old, and was playing the blues music circuit by the time he was 12 or 13. Here's a sample of Josh's music from TrueFire lessons...Josh is known in Nashville and studio circles as "a new voice" in blues, rock, jazz, country, funk, etc.

FTR, I don't "hate" guitarists who play a lot of notes, though I do "hate" what is "bad." Perhaps this is widely subjective, and no one can really judge guitarists based on their ability or pace of play. We might ask ourselves if we don't live in a very fast-paced society, and worry if we're not going to burn out from all of this.

Ask college students if they worry if they might experience burn out from the hectic pace of life, and realize that the stress of a fast-paced life is unhealthy over time. We all might desire to keep pace with the latest information, but obsessing over this will cause us to lose sight of what is important in life.

We can enjoy life if we adjust our attitudes so that we slow down and speak (play) without shouting at people. Fast-paced guitarists only causes me to reject what I've heard (I've not been able to digest any of what's been played) because there's no pausing, or space between the notes.

Shredders take note: Your music needs to breathe before you can call it listenable music.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

ha, just thinking about this, remembered about 10-12 years ago, some guy ranting at TGP about Petrucci and Dream Theater... "too many notes" "too technical, no feel" blah blah blah. I replied "Yeah, that Bach guy sucked too, didn't he? Just way too technical and no feel. No wonder he didn't make it in the music industry. I mean yeah, he was popular for a while in the 80s, but then the real genius Curt Kobayne came long and put him in his place."

 

[CandidPicker]

ha, just thinking about this, remembered about 10-12 years ago, some guy ranting at TGP about Petrucci and Dream Theater... "too many notes" "too technical, no feel" blah blah blah. I replied "Yeah, that Bach guy sucked too, didn't he? Just way too technical and no feel. No wonder he didn't make it in the music industry. I mean yeah, he was popular for a while in the 80s, but then the real genius Curt Kobayne came long and put him in his place."

@DTR: You'd be surprised. In fact, my iTunes contains a good sized classical music collection of Bach (some Yo-Yo Ma and Pablo Casals cello suites). It's soothing, and not anything like Yngwie or 150 BPM music.

And later I will sit with my pretzels and beer...

 

[CandidPicker]

So, Terminator,

This seems like a good time for one of my "life quotes." I've always said...

"Perspective is 90% of reality."

I've always felt it's way to easy to judge someone else but you have no right to do so til you've walked a mile in his shoes. I know people who were GOOD solid people, who worked hard, had great family and life values, would give you the shirt off their back if you were in need, whose lives are ravaged by drugs and have stolen from their own family and best friends.

Anyway, all that to say this. I know "my" perspective base. I obviously don't know much about yours. While this is a pretty unfiltered "what you love sucks" I don't take it as a direct personal insult or attack. So, not like if you said "your wife is ugly" or "you have bad breath caused by gingivitis." But still, a pretty strong attack on some things I do love dearly. So that we can better understand each other, here's where I'm coming from.

For most of my life, (other than religion) there were two predominant factors and loves in my life. Music and sports. I grew up in a home of musicians and singers. I took classical piano lessons from ages 5-14. When you are classically trained, Virtuoso is not a bad word, it's an honor that you hope you may some day achieve. Technical skills are drilled into you. Moving forward to harder and harder music. Your love of music drives you to practice for hours and get better and better. Not so you can say "hey, look at me," but so you can achieve the satisfaction of knowing you can play the most beautiful and most difficult music. When I stopped playing piano it was only because I wanted to play guitar. I was very advanced and actually had several colleges talk to me about music scholarships when I was in Jr. High.

And sports... I'll try to keep this short. If you play sports "for fun" that's great. I did too. Only problem was, I never had fun losing. I had an intense desire to be the best. I was all state in two sports, and had D1 major top 20 scholarship offers in basketball, but I had a knee that was a problem and was born about 5 years too soon. I shot over 60% in high school and in college despite never having the knee fixed, but the 3 point shot didn't come in til after I was out of college. One of my D1 offers was good even if I had to sit a year to have my knee fixed, but was contingent on the 3 pointer being voted in my Sr year of high school and it wasn't voted in that time. I played competitive softball to my early 50s. Played left center on a team that had no other members over 30 just two years ago.

Point is, I worked hard to be the best at what I loved. When I was younger, as much as I liked guys like BB King, I shook my head and thought "I could play just like him 2 weeks after I started playing guitar. How hard is that?" Honestly, I still feel that a lot of blues is just TOO simple. Oh, don't go there. I totally get the "feel" aspect. But if you get the feel, the notes are easy.

Not as a dig or a negative comment, but tell me if you can't relate to this...this song resonates with me more than you'd ever know...

So, from a classical background and with a competitive nature, it seems I'm probably going to gravitate towards the guys with extreme technical skills more than the guys playing really simple things. That said, Hendrix and Trower are two of my top 10 guitar players ever. So trust me, I DO get it! But so are Alan Holdsworth, Al Di Meola and John Petrucci. So I get that too.

For years, (when I was younger and much more competitive) I thought all the shred bashers were just guys who couldn't play, so they put them down. And that is a common thing. Just like the guys who couldn't make the Jr. High basketball team but they constantly criticize the elite college coaches and/or players.

It's all perspective though. IMHO. Saw a guy at TGP say this weekend "I went to see Yngwie once, but in the very first song, he played every note and every riff he knew, then all he did was keep repeating them in all the other songs so there was nothing else to hear. I could have left after one song and known everything he could play." And I almost countered with "and that is not true of the blues guys?"

Music isn't a competition. Took me a while to grasp that, but I have. Trust me, if this was 20 years ago and you slammed Jimi and Petrucci like that in a thread, the first words out of my mouth would have been "well lets cut head and see what you've got." Now, I'm a kinder, gentler DTR. And I think that, but I don't say it out loud. LMAO!!!!!!!! (just kidding!)

This. The world is too far a critical place that shouts people down who are only trying to speak up for themselves. Even the most intelligent minds like Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Einstein, were all rejected because their ideas seemed too irrational for the crowds of people in history. What ever happened to being meek? I think this quality is lost on a society that considers being loud-mouthed as how "normal" people act.

Few weeks ago, I had said that if your car is making a funny noise, you fix the car, not turn up the car radio in order to drown out the noise. Let's consider fixing the car, folks, and doing a good job of it.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Love that album and especially that song! Great tune!

I was with you all the way up til "not turn your car radio up to drown out the noise." Your car radio should always be loud enough that you can't here the noise in the first place!

 

[jxe]

this is like when charlie daniels/emmet otter/robben ford/etc smoked the devil/riverbottom nightmare band/vai/britney at the crossroads, because traditional unamplified music is better.

 

[Tremontinator]

I already said my piece, and you choos to ignore it.

I'm not going to repeat myself

 

[alantig]

ha, just thinking about this, remembered about 10-12 years ago, some guy ranting at TGP about Petrucci and Dream Theater... "too many notes" "too technical, no feel" blah blah blah. I replied "Yeah, that Bach guy sucked too, didn't he? Just way too technical and no feel. No wonder he didn't make it in the music industry. I mean yeah, he was popular for a while in the 80s, but then the real genius Curt Kobayne came long and put him in his place."

In college, my buddy and I took a course in western music. During one of the first Bach pieces, he turned to me and said, "This is some good sh!t." We laughed at the absurdity of reducing it to that comment, but it stuck with us and helped us remember it through the course.

@DTR: You'd be surprised. In fact, my iTunes contains a good sized classical music collection of Bach (some Yo-Yo Ma and Pablo Casals cello suites). It's soothing, and not anything like Yngwie or 150 BPM music.

The reason Bach never wrote anything at that tempo is because it hadn't been invented yet.

I was with you all the way up til "not turn your car radio up to drown out the noise." Your car radio should always be loud enough that you can't here the noise in the first place!

Years ago, riding in my buddy's car (different friend), he said, "Can you hear that pinging in the engine?" Yeah, I think so. He turned the volume up, and said, "Well, took care of that." I tried that with crying children in the car, and it made me impotent. No, not impotent, that other thing - celibate. Turns out my wife liked the kids.

 

[CandidPicker]

Years ago, riding in my buddy's car (different friend), he said, "Can you hear that pinging in the engine?" Yeah, I think so. He turned the volume up, and said, "Well, took care of that." I tried that with crying children in the car, and it made me impotent. No, not impotent, that other thing - celibate. Turns out my wife liked the kids.

Yeah, but consider that drowning out the noise by turning up the radio is gonna cost you more in repairs later than fixing the ping while it's still just a ping. This is practical wisdom here, and increasing the radio volume won't solve the problem.

It'll only cause deafness, which leads to costly hearing aids if you still desire to enjoy music and conversation. You can choose to change the radio station to something quieter, turn the volume down, or off. The ping in your car engine still is there.

When was the last time your DMV recommended putting in hearing protection earplugs while driving? They don't, because you need to be aware of what's happening while you're driving.