58/15 LT+

Shawn@PRS said:
TCI is a combination of pickups and electronics. It's a culmination of everything Paul has learned in 35+ years of guitar building. We've taken all of the variable and made the tolerances extremely tight. Think about the genuine PAF pickups. Some of them sound like the voice of God, while some of them just sound OK. Why is that? Because too many things were left to chance. With TCI we leave nothing to chance and control every aspect of the design and construction. Each TCI pickup set is tuned to the specific guitar. Think of it as a mixing counsel, we've mixed the sound to be exactly what we want, every time.

All Core guitars are getting TCI treatment now. S2 guitars will follow in the near future.
Click to expand...

Having "everything" under control isn't necessarily a good thing. A thoroughbred race horse is an impressive beast most people would marvel at... until they see a wild mustang :)
 
garrett said:
This concept fascinates me. What is this tuning based on? Audio frequency measurements from the output signal of a "magic" sounding guitar? In other words, you take the perfect sounding 594, measure the sound it produces, and then tweak all other 594s to match the ideal example?
Click to expand...

I hope not, another word for that is "cloning" :)
 
Guitpicky said:
I hope not, another word for that is "cloning" :)
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That's part of why this is so interesting. I could be COMPLETELY off track; I am having fun leaping conclusions based on the very, very minimal information available.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, but is cloning guitar tone a bad thing? Especially in today's world of e-commerce? Imagine seeing Bryan Ewald demo an amazing guitar on YouTube knowing that the one you buy will sound EXACTLY as nice, no concerns about getting "a good one". I think that would be pretty doggone impressive for a major manufacturer.
 
Shawn@PRS said:
TCI is a combination of pickups and electronics. It's a culmination of everything Paul has learned in 35+ years of guitar building. We've taken all of the variable and made the tolerances extremely tight. Think about the genuine PAF pickups. Some of them sound like the voice of God, while some of them just sound OK. Why is that? Because too many things were left to chance. With TCI we leave nothing to chance and control every aspect of the design and construction. Each TCI pickup set is tuned to the specific guitar. Think of it as a mixing counsel, we've mixed the sound to be exactly what we want, every time.

All Core guitars are getting TCI treatment now. S2 guitars will follow in the near future.
Click to expand...

This reminds me of seeing in the Silver Sky thread that each Silver Sky has capacitors/resistors or whatever to make sure the pot values are exactly as PRS wants them. Is this a similar thing?

Thanks Shawn, you're a great resource.
 
garrett said:
This concept fascinates me. What is this tuning based on? Audio frequency measurements from the output signal of a "magic" sounding guitar? In other words, you take the perfect sounding 594, measure the sound it produces, and then tweak all other 594s to match the ideal example?
Click to expand...
I've been pondering the same thing since I first heard of TCI. Is it just a design concept or an actual, physical process that is done to the pickup. Is it during winding or after winding? I was hoping to go to a clinic or a something and corner PRSh and ask him. However , he might be tight-lipped about it. Shawn did say it is tuned to every specific guitar, guitar model or actual guitar? Inquiring minds want to know
 
Shawn@PRS said:
The new tuners weigh less than the Phase III tuners. Changing the weight of the tuners changed the way the guitar sounds.
Click to expand...

I would still replace them and take my chances on the difference it makes to the sound. Whether that's a PRS Phase 3 set or a set of locking tuners that are designed to fit the vintage layout as I assume they have a screw both top and bottom and so the Phase 3's wouldn't fit the same. Not one of my 5 PRS guitars sounds 'bad' and whilst I don't know the impact the phase 3's have, I can't believe its a negative impact otherwise I would expect Paul to have come up with a better option as well as keep the locking functionality.

I do not have the experience that you, the staff and Paul have and certainly do not have access to new 594's with vintage and phase 3's to be able to do a side by side comparison as to the impact each set of tuners actually make to the tone. Aesthetically, I have never been a fan of the square block look - not that it would stop me from buying - but in terms of locking vs non-locking, I would take locking every time - even if it looked like the vintage tuners. I really do like the open gear look of the phase 3's though even if its nothing more than a way to save a few 'grams' of weight.

I would love to hear a comparison though between the same guitar - one with Vintage and one with Phase 3's (for example) to hear what difference it actually makes. I have no doubt that they make 'some' difference as I fully believe that a guitar is a system and the sound is affected by everything in that system - Paul really helped convince me of that. However, I would need to be convinced that the difference is significant enough to give up the convenience of locking tuners and that the vintage tuners are not just aesthetically a better fit for the 'vintage' era they are inspired by. Incidentally, if I were to buy a vintage inspired Gibson reissue R9, I would look to replace those tuners with locking tuners too as functionality would outweigh period correctness. Of course the originals would be kept for those that want that should I sell.

As I said, I am NOT doubting that there could be a tonal difference and I would love to hear the difference as well as any information from Paul to tell us what difference it made to give me a clue as to what I maybe should listen out for. I know the guitar should sound different to my 594 regardless because of the other differences from type of finish, to bridge amendments, to pick-up tweaks and the tuners so I would be fascinated to hear more about what effect these vintage tuners made as I am sure many of us would love to know and it does seem that people expect locking tuners these days too. Understanding why PRS feel these are better would help as it almost seems that this change in particular is an Aesthetic choice as locking tuners were not around in the late 50's. I say 'almost' because I do believe that it has some impact but I also think that Paul would use Vintage tuners on everything if they were 'better'. Understanding why they are better in this case, would really help to understand what impact they have and what impact changing them would likely do.
 
Shawn@PRS said:
The neck joint will effect the tone of a guitar, so if all things were equal, a Singlecut would sound differently than a double cutaway guitar. The 58/15LT+ pickups are tuned specifically for a Singlecut neck joint.
Click to expand...

Shawn,

Is it a given that the 2020 594 SCs have the 58/15LT+ pickups, and the 2019 models 58/15s?

If so, how might we compare the 594 SC and '59 LP models as Tim Pierce did with Howard Leese?

Also, am not sure what year the 594 SC was in Tim's comparison video...?

Understood that the LT+ pickups are TCI'd for improved tone response relative to each guitar. Curious if the previous 58/15's in older model 594 SCs possess the '59 LP tone...
 
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Domingo Lantigua said:
I've been pondering the same thing since I first heard of TCI. Is it just a design concept or an actual, physical process that is done to the pickup. Is it during winding or after winding? I was hoping to go to a clinic or a something and corner PRSh and ask him. However , he might be tight-lipped about it. Shawn did say it is tuned to every specific guitar, guitar model or actual guitar? Inquiring minds want to know
Click to expand...

I may get a chance to ask him at the clinic in Atlanta next weekend.
 
I find this thread and comparison very interesting. When I first discovered PRS I was looking for the LP sound with the PRS form and function. I quickly discovered that PRS was its own thing. I purchased one of the original GOM 594’s again thinking I would get the LP sound in the PRS form. Close but still very noticeably different from my R9. Now this comparison seems to suggest that PRS has created the better mouse trap. I’m having hypocritical fantasies of replacing the GOM and R9 with a new SC594 and thereby reducing the number of guitars, putting some $ in my pocket and achieving my original goal of the LP sound in the PRS format.
 
CandidPicker said:
Shawn,

Is it a given that the 2020 594 SCs have the 58/15LT+ pickups, and the 2019 models 58/15s?

If so, how might we compare the 594 SC and '59 LP models as Tim Pierce did with Howard Leese?

Also, am not sure what year the 594 SC was in Tim's comparison video...?

Understood that the LT+ pickups are TCI'd for improved tone response relative to each guitar. Curious if the previous 58/15's in older model 594 SCs possess the '59 LP tone...
Click to expand...

If I understand everything that we have received so far in terms of information, the 2020 SC594 guitars will be supplied with the 58/15 LT+ pick ups and ALL 594's before the 2020 models, will have the 58/15 LT's as they have since launch. The only way to compare is to somehow get hold of both the new 2020 SC 594 and a genuine 59 Gibson Les Paul. The reason Tim Pierce and Howard Leese were able to make that video is because Howard Leese owns a genuine 59 Gibson LP and has been receiving Prototypes for the 2020 SC 594 - in the video, he does state that one set of Prototype PU's were a but too heavy on the bass.

The SC594 guitar I assume would be a prototype too as it has at least the bridge tweaks that the new 594's have which has lowered the adjustable part and I would assume its got the Nitro finish too. Howard did say that he had received Prototypes to test so it makes sense to test them in a prototype guitar to get to hear how the Pick-ups sound with the '2020' specs. Both artists obviously have a great relationship with Paul and PRS guitars so I am sure they wouldn't have bought the 2020 SC 594 to test it against a 59 LP...

The LT+ have been developed for the SC594 with the rest of the range fitted with the 58/15 LT's that have all been through the TCI process - which is not just pick-ups but electronics too - balancing the resistor to the Pick-up or something like that which is what PRS do with the Silver Sky - the development of the SS did lead to the TCI pick-ups and it seems that it can be applied to most (if not all) pick-ups that PRS offer.

I am sure you can try an older 594 with a newer 594 when they eventually come to retailers. Whilst you probably won't get access to a 59 LP to test alongside the 594's, if the newer 594's are so close (if not better as they seem more balanced) to a 59 LP as Tim & Howard found, then you can at least see how close the older 594 gets and get an idea of how far off the older guitars sounded. Its not an exact comparison but it should give you an idea of the differences.
 
garrett said:
This concept fascinates me. What is this tuning based on? Audio frequency measurements from the output signal of a "magic" sounding guitar? In other words, you take the perfect sounding 594, measure the sound it produces, and then tweak all other 594s to match the ideal example?
Click to expand...

Are you familiar with the technology Paul created? He spun off a second company called Digital Harmonic. With this technology, a photo taken in pitch dark has details, depth of field and it remains a color photo. He uses this same technology to measure the character of a pickup. Most of us are familiar with the "DC resistance + magnet type = the tone of a pickup" equation. Paul believes that is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Mozzi, don’t forget that the pickups in the ‘59 LP aren’t the original ones, so as Sergio pointed out it’s not strictly a true comparison. If I remember the ‘59 pickups are in the Goldtop he plays.
 
SlapTappy said:
This reminds me of seeing in the Silver Sky thread that each Silver Sky has capacitors/resistors or whatever to make sure the pot values are exactly as PRS wants them. Is this a similar thing?

Thanks Shawn, you're a great resource.
Click to expand...

This is a culmination of everything Paul has learned over the course of his lifetime. Although some of the TCI technology has been slowly implemented into our designs over the years, the Silver Sky was a huge leap forward. I think most of us can agree the Silver Sky pickups sound amazing.
 
CandidPicker said:
Shawn,

Is it a given that the 2020 594 SCs have the 58/15LT+ pickups, and the 2019 models 58/15s?

If so, how might we compare the 594 SC and '59 LP models as Tim Pierce did with Howard Leese?

Also, am not sure what year the 594 SC was in Tim's comparison video...?

Understood that the LT+ pickups are TCI'd for improved tone response relative to each guitar. Curious if the previous 58/15's in older model 594 SCs possess the '59 LP tone...
Click to expand...

The changes mentioned in the Tim/Howard video are all "flying changes". The finish on all Core models is now the new nitro finish. All core pickups will be TCI by November 1st and the new 594 tuners will be 100% implemented by January 1st.
 
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