Rock and Roll Hall of Fame voting 2013

[QueenCityGuitars]

Black Sabbath didn't found heavy metal at all. The genre was literally named after Led Zeppelin - lead being a heavy metal, get it? When the first Led Zep album came out, it was the absolute heaviest thing anyone had ever heard. The Sabbaths and all the others came later, and followed Zeppelin; in Black Sabbath's case, their first album was released around the same time as Led Zeppelin's third album.

And "heavy metal" was a fairly derisive term at first, the critics (especially Rolling Stone) HATED Zep. It was meant to lump all the heavy bands together dismissively.

Black Sabbath was hardly taken seriously when they came out. I remember we used to laugh at their lyrics. It reminded me (and my circle of college friends) of The Crazy World of Arthur Brown-devil-novelty music. Which to me was akin to stuff like "The Monster Mash," and "Flying Purple People Eater."

Compared to Zep (I was not all that much of a Zep fan, though I liked their work) it seemed like bad imitation and was preposterously amateurish. It got better later on. I will go so far as to say that. But original? No. Intelligent? Only in a making-money from the I'm-bad-ass-in-middle-school-kids sense.

Okay, Les...your rants about metal have to stop. You seem like an intelligent guy but what you know about metal couldn't fill a thimble. Most musicians who listen to, like, and play metal credit Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Purple as the genre's collective starting point. However, most credit Sabbath's decisively darker material as being metal's flash point. Their music was heavier and their subject material was more ominous. Zeppelin sang about scoring chicks and The Lord of the Rings (not that there's anything wrong with that...I love Zeppelin). But Led Zeppelin doesn't even like to be called 'heavy metal' and got their "lead" naming when Keith Moon told them, "You'll go over like a lead balloon." Sabbath embrace their metal ancestry. I don't even know why you comment on metal because this is the second time you've referred to it as "middle school music". Remember when you posted this?

Unfortunately, however, none of the albums you listed was among them...

I mean, 80s metal? OK, I guess, if you're stuck in a middle school time warp (kidding, sorta ).

Seriously, "What You Need" by INXS, a classic. "Higher Love," Winwood. Good stuff. Bruce Hornsby's first hit. Elegant music for a more civilized age.
​

If you're into INXS, Steve Winwood, and Bruce Hornsby...maybe you should comment about Hall & Oates being on the list. Feel free to discuss their vast impact on the civilized and enlightened. Leave the heavy music tutelage to those to like it and know it.

 

[alantig]

And Kiss? For real? Metal bubblegum. Purely exploitative copy-tainment.

Oh, I'm not going to argue that Kiss would have the best music in the Hall (although I'd take it over about 85% of the output of the artists in there), but as an influence? Absolutely. You can't hardly spit without hitting a hard rock guitarist who was influenced by Ace Frehley. And their impact on the show aspect of things is pretty much undeniable. Yeah, I know Alice Cooper and the New York Dolls were doing it first, but Kiss took it in a slightly different direction from both of them.

And song-wise, I think Kiss is unfairly derided. Again, not going to argue that it's the greatest music in the world, but there are some damn fine songs in there (I am so close to getting Shawn-nuked right now!!!). Some serious crap as well, but I'd venture that all artists have stuff that shouldn't have seen the light of day. As much as I liked them, it didn't click with me how good some of their songs were until they did Unplugged.

Good googly moogly - I can't believe I'm arguing over the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame...

 

[claythomas]

I personally feel it's a joke that KISS wasn't inducted over 20 years ago, but...........

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Man... I've been sharpening my nails and took my hoop earrings out waiting to throw down over Chic,LL Cool J, and NWA all week long, and the drama winds up over Sabbath? I don't know if I'm proud of you guys or disappointed.... INXS rules by the way.

 

[Grapeshot]

The term "heavy metal" was actually first used in an early review of Jimi Hendrix's music, which was described as "heavy metal falling from the sky." Chaz Chandler said this in a guitar documentary I used to have on a VHS tape (remember those?).

 

[WishICouldPlay]

Does this guy count?

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[Shawn@PRS]

Man... I've been sharpening my nails and took my hoop earrings out waiting to throw down over Chic,LL Cool J, and NWA all week long, and the drama winds up over Sabbath? I don't know if I'm proud of you guys or disappointed.... INXS rules by the way.

Damn dude, your sh!t cracks me up! :biggrin::rofl::congrats:

 

[geese_com]

Okay, Les...your rants about metal have to stop. You seem like an intelligent guy but what you know about metal couldn't fill a thimble. Most musicians who listen to, like, and play metal credit Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Purple as the genre's collective starting point. However, most credit Sabbath's decisively darker material as being metal's flash point. Their music was heavier and their subject material was more ominous. Zeppelin sang about scoring chicks and The Lord of the Rings (not that there's anything wrong with that...I love Zeppelin). But Led Zeppelin doesn't even like to be called 'heavy metal' and got their "lead" naming when Keith Moon told them, "You'll go over like a lead balloon." Sabbath embrace their metal ancestry. I don't even know why you comment on metal because this is the second time you've referred to it as "middle school music". Remember when you posted this?

Unfortunately, however, none of the albums you listed was among them...

I mean, 80s metal? OK, I guess, if you're stuck in a middle school time warp (kidding, sorta ).

Seriously, "What You Need" by INXS, a classic. "Higher Love," Winwood. Good stuff. Bruce Hornsby's first hit. Elegant music for a more civilized age.
​

If you're into INXS, Steve Winwood, and Bruce Hornsby...maybe you should comment about Hall & Oates being on the list. Feel free to discuss their vast impact on the civilized and enlightened. Leave the heavy music tutelage to those to like it and know it.

Well said Bryan! :top:

 

[László]

Okay, Les...your rants about metal have to stop. You seem like an intelligent guy but what you know about metal couldn't fill a thimble. Most musicians who listen to, like, and play metal credit Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Purple as the genre's collective starting point. However, most credit Sabbath's decisively darker material as being metal's flash point. Their music was heavier and their subject material was more ominous. Zeppelin sang about scoring chicks and The Lord of the Rings (not that there's anything wrong with that...I love Zeppelin). But Led Zeppelin doesn't even like to be called 'heavy metal' and got their "lead" naming when Keith Moon told them, "You'll go over like a lead balloon." Sabbath embrace their metal ancestry. I don't even know why you comment on metal because this is the second time you've referred to it as "middle school music". Remember when you posted this?

Unfortunately, however, none of the albums you listed was among them...

I mean, 80s metal? OK, I guess, if you're stuck in a middle school time warp (kidding, sorta ).

Seriously, "What You Need" by INXS, a classic. "Higher Love," Winwood. Good stuff. Bruce Hornsby's first hit. Elegant music for a more civilized age.
​

If you're into INXS, Steve Winwood, and Bruce Hornsby...maybe you should comment about Hall & Oates being on the list. Feel free to discuss their vast impact on the civilized and enlightened. Leave the heavy music tutelage to those to like it and know it.

I could argue with all this, but I will instead refer you to Mssrs. Tinkle, Binkle, and Periwinkle, my PR representatives.

 

[László]

INXS rules by the way.

A very good band indeed.

 

[jfb]

Carcass didn't make the list?

 

[helmi]

Okay, Les...your rants about metal have to stop. You seem like an intelligent guy but what you know about metal couldn't fill a thimble. Most musicians who listen to, like, and play metal credit Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Purple as the genre's collective starting point. However, most credit Sabbath's decisively darker material as being metal's flash point. Their music was heavier and their subject material was more ominous. Zeppelin sang about scoring chicks and The Lord of the Rings (not that there's anything wrong with that...I love Zeppelin). But Led Zeppelin doesn't even like to be called 'heavy metal' and got their "lead" naming when Keith Moon told them, "You'll go over like a lead balloon." Sabbath embrace their metal ancestry. I don't even know why you comment on metal because this is the second time you've referred to it as "middle school music". Remember when you posted this?

Unfortunately, however, none of the albums you listed was among them...

I mean, 80s metal? OK, I guess, if you're stuck in a middle school time warp (kidding, sorta ).

Seriously, "What You Need" by INXS, a classic. "Higher Love," Winwood. Good stuff. Bruce Hornsby's first hit. Elegant music for a more civilized age.
​

If you're into INXS, Steve Winwood, and Bruce Hornsby...maybe you should comment about Hall & Oates being on the list. Feel free to discuss their vast impact on the civilized and enlightened. Leave the heavy music tutelage to those to like it and know it.

AMEN.
P.S.- I thought the first time the term heavy metal was used was in steppenwolf's "born to be wild". as in "heavy metal thunder", in 1968.

 

[László]

AMEN.
P.S.- I thought the first time the term heavy metal was used was in steppenwolf's "born to be wild". as in "heavy metal thunder", in 1968.

With all due respect, how many of those objecting to my version of this history were around in 1968-70, the period we're discussing?

I was in college at the time, playing in working bands, and paying very serious attention to what was happening in music.

I'm just wondering where people who object to my recollections are getting their information from, whether it's first-hand, etc.

PS - I loved Steppenwolf.

Finally, one doesn't have to be a fan of a style of music (i.e. "leave it to those who like it or know it") to understand the historical and musicological context in which the music arose, to remember the critical reaction to it, to be able to play it, or to express an opinion on it.

As a person who has composed and produced music in every style from orchestral (including conducting orchestral sessions for live recordings), to rock, to jazz, to rap, to electronica, to dance, and even to metal (yes, I've done that, written it, played it, recorded it. and made some very nice dough doing so), please don't assume that I'm ignorant of your favorite style just because you like it better.

Knowing about something often has very little to do with liking something. To suggest that one has to somehow be a fan of something to understand how it works, or to have to be "qualified" by fandom to render an opinion, is ludicrous.

Example: Does a person have to be a communist or be a fan of communism in order to express an opinion on communism? (And no, I'm not equating metal to communism, so don't go out on that limb).

You want to argue facts, fine. I'm prepared to do that. You want to argue about the sophistication of early metal lyrics, upon which my criticism is based, fine, I can do that intelligently. You want to tell me who the primary fans of early metal music were, fine, but I have a very good memory and know the answer.

But to challenge the opinions I expressed on the basis of my not being a fan of the genre is pure BS.

 

[jfb]

Again, why isn't Carcass on this list?!

 

[QueenCityGuitars]

With all due respect, how many of those objecting to my version of this history were around in 1968-70, the period we're discussing?

I was in college at the time, playing in working bands, and paying very serious attention to what was happening in music.

I'm just wondering where people who object to my recollections are getting their information from, whether it's first-hand, etc.

PS - I loved Steppenwolf.

Finally, one doesn't have to be a fan of a style of music (i.e. "leave it to those who like it or know it") to understand the historical and musicological context in which the music arose, to remember the critical reaction to it, to be able to play it, or to express an opinion on it.

As a person who has composed and produced music in every style from orchestral (including conducting orchestral sessions for live recordings), to rock, to jazz, to rap, to electronica, to dance, and even to metal (yes, I've done that, written it, played it, recorded it. and made some very nice dough doing so), please don't assume that I'm ignorant of your favorite style just because you like it better.

Knowing about something often has very little to do with liking something. To suggest that one has to somehow be a fan of something to understand how it works, or to have to be "qualified" by fandom to render an opinion, is ludicrous.

Example: Does a person have to be a communist or be a fan of communism in order to express an opinion on communism? (And no, I'm not equating metal to communism, so don't go out on that limb).

You want to argue facts, fine. I'm prepared to do that. You want to argue about the sophistication of early metal lyrics, upon which my criticism is based, fine, I can do that intelligently. You want to tell me who the primary fans of early metal music were, fine, but I have a very good memory and know the answer.

But to challenge the opinions I expressed on the basis of my not being a fan of the genre is pure BS.

Looks like Mssrs. Tinkle, Binkle, and Periwinkle are busy.

Nobody's trying to squelch your opinions, Les (if that's even possible). When you condescendingly make comments like "OK, I guess, if you're stuck in a middle school time warp" and "Intelligent? Only in a making-money from the I'm-bad-ass-in-middle-school-kids sense" you know you're going to fire up the forum members who like that kind of music. It's not even necessary to say that stuff. And yes...admiration leads to exposure and repeated exposure leads to familiarity. If you want to argue that...knock yourself out.

 

[Boogie]

I have no dog in this fight, so please don't count me as part of this discussions. However, when I read Les' "middle school" comment, I instantly related because it wasn't until middle school/junior high that I began appreciating harder rock. Up to then, my mother's influence (by virtue of what she bought/listened to) included every rock genre out there. But as soon as the lyrics of Black Sabbath and others (was I the only one that thought Judas Priest was a startup from the band remnants of The Village People??) became publicly known, I had to be careful that my folks didn't think I was "on drugs". Because we all know, if you play guitar in a band and play the wrong music, "drugs" just magically materialize in your hands. This all happened to me in junior high, so it made sense and not didn't come across as a disrespectful jab.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I was a "new-waver" in middle-school, I guess I missed all the fun... but the girls liked my asymmetrical hair.

 

[QueenCityGuitars]

I have no dog in this fight, so please don't count me as part of this discussions. However, when I read Les' "middle school" comment, I instantly related because it wasn't until middle school/junior high that I began appreciating harder rock. Up to then, my mother's influence (by virtue of what she bought/listened to) included every rock genre out there. But as soon as the lyrics of Black Sabbath and others (was I the only one that thought Judas Priest was a startup from the band remnants of The Village People??) became publicly known, I had to be careful that my folks didn't think I was "on drugs". Because we all know, if you play guitar in a band and play the wrong music, "drugs" just magically materialize in your hands. This all happened to me in junior high, so it made sense and not didn't come across as a disrespectful jab.

You didn't take it disrespectfully because, had you made the comment, you wouldn't have intended it to be disrespectful. That's because you're a nice guy, Kerry. :biggrin: The "I mean, 80s metal? OK, I guess, if you're stuck in a middle school time warp (kidding, sorta )." comment was intended to be a jab and was mean-spirited with a passive-aggressive wink at the end. To quote Doc Holiday, "I'm your huckleberry."

 

[WishICouldPlay]

With all due respect, how many of those objecting to my version of this history were around in 1968-70, the period we're discussing?

I was around in 1968, but I know very little about metal as a genre and I'm not objecting to anything. If I had to offer an opinion, it would be "You Really Got Me" by the Kinks, sometime in the summer of 1964. Truly an overlooked, underappreciated, but seminal song in the development of hard rock, including the attitude. Those Davies' boys were a couple of BadAss dudes.

 

[HANGAR18]

I'm not trying to argue the semantics of the term "Rock & Roll". At this point I feel it's a generic term which encompasses all of popular music. .

I agree. I imagine that the RRHoF must have been invented by a bunch of suits who thought any music which isn't in the same category as Benny Goodman or Lawrence Welk would be classified as Rock & Roll.

My band instructor in High School thought any music which didn't have a clarinet in it was "Rock" and he also thought "drums should be felt and not heard". He and I didn't get along very well.