Roast me all you want but I'll say it: SE is better than S2.

[opnoob]

I've owned 3 different new SE models and after spending some time recently with an S2 Cu24. I can confidently say... The SE was better. In both subjective feel but also objective build quality. Maybe I just got lucky with my guitars or maybe that particular S2 was a bit of a dud but I think the days are gone where we can say a guitar is better just because its "Made in USA". USA made guitars will always have a place, but more intangible than not. I think this honestly puts the entire S2 line in a bit of a tough situation. The SE's have gotten so good and so they are the defacto budget option but they really don't give up much in terms of sound or playability. Then of course, when you want full fat, beautifully hand crafted instruments, you go for the Core. I think S2 is becoming more irrelevant because its the neither here nor there. Let me know your thoughts.

On a side note, I also prefer the look of the SE more than the angular carve of the S2.

 

[Saturn]

Well, being that I just made an impulse buy of a 2020 S2 Custom 22, this thread kinda dampens my enthusiasm.

 

[opnoob]

Buying used is a different story my guy! Theres tons of value to be had there.

 

[shimmilou]

Nope

 

[SinSir]

On a side note, I also prefer the look of the SE more than the angular carve of the S2.

The new shallow shallow violin carve is what turns me away the most visually on the se. I much preferred the beveled carve. And comfort wise the s2 is hard to beat.

 

[Ovibos]

I don’t think objective means what you think it means.

Statistically, are there fewer returns on SEs? Do they have fewer problems out of the box?

 

[opnoob]

I don’t think objective means what you think it means.

Statistically, are there fewer returns on SEs? Do they have fewer problems out of the box?

Statistically objective and objective both exist. I can observe two different guitars and one can still be "objectively" better than the other ie. Better fret work, better finishing, better tuning stability, etc. Objectivity has no statistical relevance. It simply means whether the characteristics are tangible and/or measurable. So, I would revert and state that I don't think objective means what YOU think it means.

Since I am a scientist by trade, let's dig into your criteria for judgment a little bit more. I will start by saying I have no idea whether the returns percentage for SEs is greater than S2's or not. But I would argue that it's not actually that relevant. People's satisfaction with a product has everything to do with expectation and when two guitars are in different price categories, and thus different expectation, you cannot easily assume that returns are based on an objective standard. For example, if a 500 dollar guitar played like what I feel is a 1000 dollar guitar, I probably wouldn't return it. Conversely, if a 5000 dollar guitar felt like a 1000 dollar guitar, I'd probably return it. So comparible objectivity goes out the window. Even if S2's got returned more (by percentage) than SE's, I still wouldn't conclude that S2's are objectively worse. I'd conclude that people are less satisfied with the S2's based on the consumer's expectations.

All I'm saying is that in my rather anecdotal experiences with these guitars, the SE's were in fact objectively better. Meaning that, money, expectation and value calibration aside, the SE's were simply the better guitars.

 

[opnoob]

The new shallow shallow violin carve is what turns me away the most visually on the se. I much preferred the beveled carve. And comfort wise the s2 is hard to beat.

Fair enough! Everyone has a preference.

 

[opnoob]

BTW I'm not trying to bash S2's, I was just more surprised at how great SE's seem to be. S2's are fantastic instruments and I'm sure someone buying one will love theirs. Im just not sure it makes that much sense to me as an offering when the SE's are (in my experience) so damn good. I believe the parts are all imports, but just assembled in the US. So for it to make any sense, the build quality would have to be better. But that wasn't the case for me.

 

[DISTORT6]

Statistically, are there fewer returns on SEs? Do they have fewer problems out of the box?

Going by the amount of b!tching and moaning posts around here about SEs…

 

[aamefford]

I have a single data point for each. I still have the S2. The SE was great though. S2 was a preferred model, more comfortable (I prefer the S2 carve to the core I have also), and has the made in the USA cachet, which kinda doesn’t mean anything, but kinda does to me. So, what does all this mean? I liked my orange better than my apple I guess.

 

[opnoob]

I have a single data point for each. I still have the S2. The SE was great though. S2 was a preferred model, more comfortable (I prefer the S2 carve to the core I have also), and has the made in the USA cachet, which kinda doesn’t mean anything, but kinda does to me. So, what does all this mean? I liked my orange better than my apple I guess.

You know, I'd actually be interested in seeing a 10-top or artist top on an S2 body. I wonder if that would change my aesthetic preference. Since the SE all come with pretty nice veneers, that might be whats swaying me in terms of looks.

 

[aamefford]

You know, I'd actually be interested in seeing a 10-top or artist top on an S2 body. I wonder if that would change my aesthetic preference. Since the SE all come with pretty nice veneers, that might be whats swaying me in terms of looks.

My S2 is opaque black. That’s more my sensibility. I think the S2 leans more into the “Standard” than the premium look?

 

[shimmilou]

nvrmind

 

[László]

I'm a Core and PS customer, I have no dog in this hunt.

I'm a musician and buy them to make my livelihood. I value tone first, playability a close second. and appearance dead last. I'll nitpick tone and playability, and probably not nitpick whether there's a finish flaw somewhere.

Though I do love pretty guitars, I'd never keep one around unless it met my first two values in a way I prefer. I can only speak for myself when it comes to my preferences and the characteristics of an instrument I value.

When it comes to sounds you prefer to hear, and feels you prefer to feel, well, those preferences can't be anything but entirely subjective.

Sure, you can measure frequencies, and measure the parts of the guitar. Those things are objective.

But you can't measure, "I like the tone of this one better." That's purely subjective. So's "This feels really great to me."

Moreover, because no two of us are exactly alike, the choice of musical instrument we express ourselves with should be intensely personal and subjective - like the art form.

Creating music is, after all, intensely related to our brains, ears, and hands, and choices we make when we create music are about as subjective as it gets.

To which I say, "Good, that's as it should be."

So what makes an instrument 'better' when we all do different things with an instrument and value an instrument's characteristics in different ways?

Nothing. There's no such thing as better. There's only what's better for you.

If you want to set up criteria relating to how the guitars look, or fit and finish, it's easy to find one of either type that's flawless and beautiful. Pick your poison. There are plenty of complaints on the forum not only about SEs, but about all the models. Everyone has a gripe about something.

If the criteria are how they feel, the S2s feel more like my Core models. Makes sense. They're made of the same woods dried out the way PRS does it in the factory, in the same building, with the same machinery, and the team is headed up by the same people - the people who set the bar.

If it's a matter of tone quality, I hear more of a Core sonic vibe in the S2. Thus, they're my preference when comparing them.

I think S2 would be as good as Core guitars - given my preferences - with the US hardware and electronics. I don't feel that way about the SEs. Not that the SEs are bad. They're just different.

But like I said, I'm not an S2 or SE customer, I've always bought Core and up, because why wouldn't I if I can?

 

[Russ73]

I have a bunch of S2s and a couple on SEs...the S2s are way nicer IMO...but hey everyone's entitled to their opinion...a used S2 is a tremendous value over lots of guitars on thr market...

 

[opnoob]

I'm a Core and PS customer, I have no dog in this hunt.

I'm a musician and buy them to make my livelihood. I value tone first, playability a close second. and appearance dead last. I'll nitpick tone and playability, and probably not nitpick whether there's a finish flaw somewhere.

Though I do love pretty guitars, I'd never keep one around unless it met my first two values in a way I prefer. I can only speak for myself when it comes to my preferences and the characteristics of an instrument I value.

When it comes to sounds you prefer to hear, and feels you prefer to feel, well, those preferences can't be anything but entirely subjective.

Sure, you can measure frequencies, and measure the parts of the guitar. Those things are objective.

But you can't measure, "I like the tone of this one better." That's purely subjective. So's "This feels really great to me."

Moreover, because no two of us are exactly alike, the choice of musical instrument we choose to express ourselves with should be intensely personal and subjective - like the art form.

Creating music is, after all, an art form that is intensely related to our brains, ears, and hands, and choices we make when we create music are about as subjective as it gets.

To which I say, "Good, that's as it should be."

So what makes an instrument 'better' when we all do different things with an instrument and value an instrument's characteristics in different ways?

Nothing. There's no such thing as better. There's only what's better for you.

If you want to set up criteria relating to how the guitars look, or fit and finish, it's easy to find one of either type that's flawless and beautiful. Pick your poison. There are plenty of complaints on the forum not only about SEs, but about all the models. Everyone has a gripe about something.

If the criteria are how they feel, the S2s feel more like my Core models. Makes sense. They're made of the same woods dried out the way PRS does it in the factory, in the same building, with the same machinery, and the team is headed up by the same people - the people who set the bar.

If it's a matter of tone quality, I hear more of a Core sonic vibe in the S2. Thus, they're my preference when comparing them.

I think S2 would be as good as Core guitars - given my preferences - with the US hardware and electronics. I don't feel that way about the SEs. Not that the SEs are bad. They're just different.

But like I said, I'm not an S2 or SE customer, I've always bought Core and up, because why wouldn't I if I can?

I'm right with you. I treasure my Cores/PS as well. Of course tone and feel and completely subjective, and that being said, I don't think theres a clear winner in any tier. I think my SE SAS sounds just as sweet as my Core Cu24, if not better. Also, I prefer the neck of my SE Cu24 more than my PS 594. So these things are subjective, certainly. That's why I try to steer the conversation more towards the areas where we CAN discuss a level of objectivity ie. fretends, fretboard roughness, tuning stability, paintwork/finish-work, etc. This is where I found that the SE's actually were better than the S2. I also thought they sounded better but, as mentioned, thats a subjective issue. Certainly in these aspects, there IS such thing as better. Not just different. I've never met a single guitarist that prefers rough fretends for instance.

 

[SinSir]

I'm right with you. I treasure my Cores/PS as well. Of course tone and feel and completely subjective, and that being said, I don't think theres a clear winner in any tier. I think my SE SAS sounds just as sweet as my Core Cu24, if not better. Also, I prefer the neck of my SE Cu24 more than my PS 594. So these things are subjective, certainly. That's why I try to steer the conversation more towards the areas where we CAN discuss a level of objectivity ie. fretends, fretboard roughness, tuning stability, paintwork/finish-work, etc. This is where I found that the SE's actually were better than the S2. I also thought they sounded better but, as mentioned, thats a subjective issue. Certainly in these aspects, there IS such thing as better. Not just different. I've never met a single guitarist that prefers rough fretends for instance.

I've played far more of all the lines than I can remember at dozens on dozens of music shops throughout the country, and experience after experience I'd swear you were talking about se not s2.

Don't get me wrong, I used to be solid in the se camp, and still think they're good guitars, but for a while now they consistently have the "objective" issues pointed out.. Especially the fretwork. Yet, I've rarely, if ever, come across a s2 with those.

As for the se sounding sweeter than core. I liked many things about the handful of seSAS I've played, but the one I seriously debated to bring home was quickly put to rest when I came home and played my core SAS, largely because of the tonal gap.

Again, nothing wrong with se, liking a line, or all lines. I know I like them all, but there's a clear distinction between each, subjectively and objectively. As there should be, otherwise why have lines?.

 

[Xtcclassic]

I like the carve of the S2 better and to me, nitro will always be superior to polyurethane. The SE’s are great guitars, don’t get me wrong, but I think the S2’s are a noticeable step up.

 

[revtime]

I have discovered some great core guitars that dont cost an arm and a kidney.
Mira (older ones) CE( found a couple at 1500 or so). I just cant justify 4k for a guitar. Any guitar.
So I am on the hunt for guitars in my cap range. No more than 1500 for any single guitar. I have way more money in my guitar collection but I am the kind of person that would look at a 4k guitar and angrily think " You know how many great guitars I could of had for the price of that (admittedly) awesome guitar?"
Its just me.
So yes my SE guitars are REALLY good. And it has to be something I cant get as an SE like a Vela to step up to S2.