Northern lights fading

[bodia]

Call @

That's a good question, although is it true that no other manufacturer has ever had problems with any kind of color fade? That's a very broad brush to paint/stain with.

I have a few blue or partial blue PRSi, and fortunately have not yet encountered any issues with fading. I keep them hung on walls, but those walls are in a hallway with no direct sun, and very low ambient light. We don't keep the lights on very much in that hallway. So perhaps I have just the right set of environmental circumstances.

But back to the guitars that do fade: it appears PRS has had some inconsistent batches/types of blue stain over the years. Is anyone savvy enough about the available stains on the market that PRS could possibly select from, and offer some insight as to whether there is any single root cause to the issue? i.e. (making this up) all dyes made from "Blue Cobalt BR594" never fade but due to inorganic nature tends to cover up the finer details of the wood grain, but dyes made from "Blue Steel Zoolander 92" are good for wood grain but tend to fade because they are derived from the dead skin cells of Smurfs?

i.e. my Sapphire Blue McSoapy looks just as vibrant as anything else I could imagine in that dark blue stain, my SAS in Blue Matteo is still stridently blue. Why hasn't PRS simply used those dyes all along - why experiment with new dyes and seemingly not bother to find out if they are subject to fading?

Or is it a combo of the dye used and the finish put on top? Maybe some finishes contain some sort of "stabilizer" or "magic light blocker" that help keep the stain looking new, but others can cause the stain to fade when exposed to "too much light"?

So dye #123 that worked great for years is suddenly prone to fading because PRS switched to V12 for the finish. After switching away from V12 to Poly-whatever magic finish, it became stable again (unless abused by lots of sunlight).

Maybe @docteurseb could answer some of your hypotheticals.....

 

[Rod/]

Purple and Blue are the most susceptible colors for fading… ya gotta keep it out of direct sunlight…..
I bought my ‘93 Custom 22 earlier this year… it was originally dark Purple… I do like the red better
it’s in my avatar

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I’m not arguing whether or not PRS should cover fading under warranty, but I do think they should be consistent with what they decide. Why are they acknowledging the issue and offering to refinish some guitars for customers but not others? Specifically, the one I was contemplating shows almost identical fading to OP’s guitar, and he was able to get his refinished under warranty.

Maybe because he bought it new and filled out the warranty card?

I mean, I dunno… what’s PRS supposed to do, indefinitely keep refinishing NL guitars?

I’m not defending PRS, just trying to be practical. In fact, I’ll offer to fix anyones blue PRS guitar for free if you pay shipping both ways.

 

[DRBDJSM]

Yellowing could be the actual poly/nitro/whatever finish aging. My SE Zach Myers with spalted maple top, finished "natural" (no color to the finish at all) has certainly yellowed a bit over the 4 years I've owned it - which surprised me when I realized that's what had happened recently.

Wow.. It's nearly worthless now. You should just let me take that ugly monster off your hands! Kind of like 59 Les Paul's. They all faded and no one wants those!

 

[alantig]

That's a good question, although is it true that no other manufacturer has ever had problems with any kind of color fade? That's a very broad brush to paint/stain with.

Other companies have guitars that have faded - it's just a matter of whether you consider it a problem or not. Maybe not as fast as some of the PRS blues, but still faded. There are tons of older sunburst LPs that are now former sunburst LPs - all the red has faded away.

 

[László]

So......how can other guitar builders avoid this problem yet PRS can't? I appreciate your valiant defense of PRS and their at times finish flaws but simply explaining it away as "that is just the way it is" is simply BS.

Let's start with the first statement that other companies' guitars using the same hues haven't faded. Talk is cheap, show me the data. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to say so. However, I think you're making an assumption that isn't even close to provable.

Statistical information is unavailable, so all we're left with are anecdotes. You also might expect fewer stories on the internet about companies with fewer customers.

As to defending PRS. I'd sure like it if folks here based their complaints on solid info instead of speculation.

I've done a fair amount of reading about organic vs inorganic pigments used in stains. However, that doesn't make me an expert. I share what I believe is factual.

If there are equally transparent stains made from inorganic or special non-fading translucent dyes in the hues PRS uses, that's great info I'd be interested in checking out, please share. Again, talk is cheap, point me in the direction of facts.

I didn't get interested in this topic because of an interest in PRS or other guitars. My interest was piqued years before PRS even opened up their factory, when one of my brother's watercolors I owned faded, and he explained how dyes and pigments are used in paints and stains. He was researching it himself, because he didn't want his work to fade, and switched to less transparent paints as a result. I explored the topic on my own as well. By way of further background, my brother headed up a university's fine arts faculty, which probably made the topic more interesting for me; he's a great painter who's got work that's currently in the Smithsonian's portrait gallery exhibit. So I get interested in this stuff!

Finally, the internet is full of BS. I claim no special exemption.

 

[DRBDJSM]

I am now kind of amused by this. In 10 years they will issue a color called "Faded Northern Lights". They will be sold at a premium.

This is not a feature of PRS, but a feature of guitars in general. In every forum (regardless of brand) there are guys who cannot bear any degree of wear/fading and other guys who put their guitars out in the sun and take Dremmels to them. In that same forum someone says, "xxx brand (Gibson/Fender/PRS) is the worst! Other brands do not do this". They all do! Scroll down and you will also see, "why does xx brand use poly finishes. Everyone knows pure nitrocelluslose is the best." 2 threads down--"if they used more poly in the finish, this would not happen."Clearly the OP is not a "put it out in the sun" kind of guy. I am the kind of guy who loves honest wear but NOT fake wear. I keep my guitars on hangers and if they fade they fade!

I think we all have in our minds a combo of look, feel, and aesthetics. Sounds like the OP and many commenting here are big on aesthetics. Nothing wrong with that. Without that personality type we have no mint vintage guitars some day. Not putting that down at all! If everyone took Dremmels to their guitars there would be no mint old ones for my son (now 19) to buy someday.

 

[TrashPanda]

Maybe because he bought it new and filled out the warranty card?

I mean, I dunno… what’s PRS supposed to do, indefinitely keep refinishing NL guitars?

I’m not defending PRS, just trying to be practical. In fact, I’ll offer to fix anyones blue PRS guitar for free if you pay shipping both ways.

That would’ve been an acceptable reason from PRS for not refinishing the guitar but that’s not anywhere close to what the PRS rep is responding with. The reason provided was that the fading issue was isolated to an early batch of NL guitars and the rest haven’t been in the field long enough to warrant a refinish. I don’t think PRS should indefinitely refinish NL guitars, but there’s only a finite amount of NL guitars they’ve produced. I don't think it's unreasonable if PRS offered a one-time refinish on NL after it has been established that it faded. As an informed owner, I’d be fine with the onus of taking the necessary measures to make sure the refinish doesn’t fade and accept the liability if it does.

I can accept the fact that most finishes from any guitar manufacturer will fade after a decade plus. That's not in the same universe to the extent we're talking about the fading issues with NL. There are PRS guitars that have completely changed color from NL to purple only 2 years after leaving the factory. That has presented enough of an issue for PRS to acknowledge, repair under warranty (for a select few), and discontinue offering the most stunning finish I've ever seen on a guitar (IMO).

 

[jxe]

I am now kind of amused by this. In 10 years they will issue a color called "Faded Northern Lights". They will be sold at a premium.

This is not a feature of PRS, but a feature of guitars in general. In every forum (regardless of brand) there are guys who cannot bear any degree of wear/fading and other guys who put their guitars out in the sun and take Dremmels to them. In that same forum someone says, "xxx brand (Gibson/Fender/PRS) is the worst! Other brands do not do this". They all do! Scroll down and you will also see, "why does xx brand use poly finishes. Everyone knows pure nitrocelluslose is the best." 2 threads down--"if they used more poly in the finish, this would not happen."Clearly the OP is not a "put it out in the sun" kind of guy. I am the kind of guy who loves honest wear but NOT fake wear. I keep my guitars on hangers and if they fade they fade!

I think we all have in our minds a combo of look, feel, and aesthetics. Sounds like the OP and many commenting here are big on aesthetics. Nothing wrong with that. Without that personality type we have no mint vintage guitars some day. Not putting that down at all! If everyone took Dremmels to their guitars there would be no mint old ones for my son (now 19) to buy someday.

what‘s so wrong about dremmels? [smacks gum]

 

[DRBDJSM]

what‘s so wrong about dremmels? [smacks gum]

Nothing! I take a Dremmel to mine (frets) every time I change strings! I even have a "special" Dremmel for my guitars. It is a dog nail Dremmel. I boutht it for my dog because he hates to have his nails trimmed (was $10 delivered on an Amazon Deal of the Day). Turns out he hates the "Dog Dremmel" even more than the nail clippers. Tossed it in a cabinet. Then I tried my "regular" Dremmel on my frets. Found it to be too aggressive, even at the lowest speed. Then I remembered my "dog Dremmel". Very low speeds. Perfect to polish my frets to a mirror!

 

[jxe]

Nothing! I take a Dremmel to mine (frets) every time I change strings! I even have a "special" Dremmel for my guitars. It is a dog nail Dremmel. I boutht it for my dog because he hates to have his nails trimmed (was $10 delivered on an Amazon Deal of the Day). Turns out he hates the "Dog Dremmel" even more than the nail clippers. Tossed it in a cabinet. Then I tried my "regular" Dremmel on my frets. Found it to be too aggressive, even at the lowest speed. Then I remembered my "dog Dremmel". Very low speeds. Perfect to polish my frets to a mirror!

i like that idea.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Turns out he hates the "Dog Dremmel" even more than the nail clippers.

Yeah, we're 0-4 on that thing. Tried it for the first time on my puppy a couple weeks ago and she peed all over my wife who was trying to help hold her... So far, no dog we've tried it on wanted to be anywhere near that thing. EVEN my very laid back Golden. He'd let you do anything to him without protest and he RUNS when he hears the thing. Kinda like...

 

[Bogner]

Let's start with the first statement that other companies' guitars using the same hues haven't faded. Talk is cheap, show me the data. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to say so. However, I think you're making an assumption that isn't even close to provable.

Statistical information is unavailable, so all we're left with are anecdotes. You also might expect fewer stories on the internet about companies with fewer customers.

As to defending PRS. I'd sure like it if folks here based their complaints on solid info instead of speculation.

I've done a fair amount of reading about organic vs inorganic pigments used in stains. However, that doesn't make me an expert. I share what I believe is factual.

If there are equally transparent stains made from inorganic or special non-fading translucent dyes in the hues PRS uses, that's great info I'd be interested in checking out, please share. Again, talk is cheap, point me in the direction of facts.

I didn't get interested in this topic because of an interest in PRS or other guitars. My interest was piqued years before PRS even opened up their factory, when one of my brother's watercolors I owned faded, and he explained how dyes and pigments are used in paints and stains. He was researching it himself, because he didn't want his work to fade, and switched to less transparent paints as a result. I explored the topic on my own as well. By way of further background, my brother headed up a university's fine arts faculty, which probably made the topic more interesting for me; he's a great painter who's got work that's currently in the Smithsonian's portrait gallery exhibit. So I get interested in this stuff!

Finally, the internet is full of BS. I claim no special exemption.

My talk must be as cheap as yours. Nice try! Show you the data? Again, nice try. How about you come to my house and see my guitar collection? I make no assumptions, I am giving you facts and data off of my collection. I don't need to do a damn thing aside from look at my collection and experience. You can choose to believe it or not. That isn't on me, that is on you.

As I said, I haven't experienced this issue with any other guitar brand nor have I seen on several other forums spanning decades of any other brand having such an issue. I have seen this with PRS in my own experience with my own collection and also on various forums. I am not going to go do your research for you. You do your own. If you choose not to do so then at least have the decency enough to admit you are "lucky" and maybe some other folks aren't. To dismiss it again and again and then respond with "show me the data/facts" jibber jabber is BS and you are wise enough to know that. My info is solid and there is no speculation. End of story.

 

[László]

My talk must be as cheap as yours. Nice try! Show you the data? Again, nice try.

Look, I've already done my homework. I'm satisfied with it. You don't have to be. Let's leave it at that and stay friendly.

 

[Bogner]

Look, I've already done my homework. I'm satisfied with it. You don't have to be. Let's leave it at that and stay friendly.

I am always friendly and have done my homework as well coupled with experiences and so forth and am very satisfied.

Shoving your opinion and experience down a persons throat with contradictory experiences doesn't mean the other person is wrong. You come off as if it does. Not mad at you and never would be. I very much value and appreciate you. Just calling it like I see it and in some cases experienced it. At the end of the day, I am one of those who cares least as I am more interested in the guitars playability and sound over anything else. Regardless...case closed here.

All is well.

 

[RC Mike]

I’m no expert. I do like purple guitars. Try finding an EBMM EVH that’s still translucent purple. I’ve seen a photo of one, which was a case queen.

I *really* like NL as a finish. I suspect a lot of other people do, too. It was popular. For PRS to pull it means they’re reacting to the problem. I don’t see an issue with that. I don’t see an issue with them not being willing to refinish a used guitar that’s in a store. I don’t see an issue with them refusing to refinish an original owner’s guitar, as the warranty specifically excludes fading from coverage.

 

[Moondog Wily]

Well, I think the reason the NL's are fading is they never should have been called that! Have you seen the Northern Lights? I have and there was a whole lot of dancing green more than anything else (sure there was some purple and blue at times around some edges)!!! So it only makes sense that PRS would be forced to discontinue this color as it was not in tune with the charged particles being displayed in the earths thermosphere!!!! It's science!!!!!

Super saturated colors on this merge of pix, but you get the point, if you want to call it Northern Lights, it needs to start with green!

Gajain Iceland!!!

 

[Bogner]

it needs to start with green!

As in Mary Juana?

 

[JasonE]

As I said, I haven't experienced this issue with any other guitar brand nor have I seen on several other forums spanning decades of any other brand having such an issue. I have seen this with PRS in my own experience with my own collection and also on various forums.

This is something that I am wondering. I would like to see pictures of other brands of guitars that the fading has happened to. I can't think of one other major brand that I have seen this issue with. I am thinking some of the smaller builders may have used the same dyes and had the issue but I honestly have never seen this issue with another brand of guitar but have seen it on many older PRS guitars. The one that this thread was started about is the newest one that I have seen it on. I thought they had the issues resolved by changing to different types of dyes.

 

[gush]

My blue 2011 cu24 has faded a bunch before I got it.

Under the trem and pickup rings is the evidence.

My 89 cu24 VY had faded a fair amount as well. The 86 that I have lived most of its life in the case so not much fading at all on that one.