Best Stage Guitar Amp Ever? (non prs content warning)

[andy474x]

This! You get it.

Right??!! I even have a little work that needs attention. Andy, you close to Indianapolis?

Not that far, actually! But there are many better reasons to come to Grand Rapids... like beer, and freezing your b@lls off in Lake Michigan in the middle of summer.

 

[andy474x]

Man, this thread is getting REAL. But I like it, bring the chaos.

I’m sorry, I have to disagree with the premise.

People who can actually play well, not just by themselves, but with others, don’t need any special gear to sound like a great band. They sound excellent with modelers, and they sound excellent with tube gear, because they’re actually...good.

I’ll use my son’s band as an example, but only because I know what they did to prepare for their shows:

If you heard his band, Partybaby, on tour, you’d hear an example of a good live band composed of well-rehearsed professionals who understand dynamics, and have the ability to sound great regardless of where they’re playing. PB sounded great live on Carson Daly’s TV show with TV engineers, they sounded great opening for Tom Petty at Bottlerock with pro live sound guys, and they sounded just as great in small venues where I also heard them, in Columbus, Ohio, Pontiac, Michigan, and Detroit.

In other words, they’re a consistently great sounding band, because (a) they know what they’re doing; (b) everyone plays well with each other; (c) they prepared like crazy.

The last time they were in town, they played a decent little venue with an opening act that was on their label. Obviously, the same sound guys mixed both bands (there were two at this venue). The opening act sounded terrible and incoherent. Partybaby sounded fantastic. Same sound guys.

Maybe it’s because they spent three months rehearsing full-time, 8 hours a day, seven days a week, before playing in front of audiences, and two years full-time developing the songs?

In other words, maybe it’s because music is their profession, that they take seriously, just as you take your profession seriously enough to have studied it and got good at it by doing it 24/7.

The problem isn’t solved by the equipment; it’s solved by people who understand how to play their instruments and also how to be a band. I say this to anyone: if you don’t sound good live, don’t blame the sound guy. Listen to whatever the hell it is you’re doing, and get better at it.

That is the truth. The sound guy can’t make a bad band sound good, and frankly, can’t make a really good band sound awful. If your band sounds like crap, it ain’t the sound guy. It’s the band; the band needs to get better.

This isn’t a criticism of folks with day jobs and lives. It’s an acknowledgment that preparation and hard work pay off for anyone. If you need to, rent a rehearsal space, practice at gig volume, spend some vacation time playing together for as long as you can, and, miraculously, it won’t be about the sound guy. It’ll be about your well-rehearsed, excellent band.

Why do folks not turn out for live music these days? Well, mostly it’s because the music isn’t very much fun to listen to. Because most bands sound exactly like guys with day jobs and a music hobby.

Incidentally, this is why I have had such trepidation turning out my recordings. I realize that people are used to hearing the best people in the world’s records, and I worry about mine not being as good as theirs. So I’m not going to claim I’m a shining example of anything.

However, I will also say that the last band I played in, everyone was a touring/session pro (our drummer was the Detroit Symphony’s first-call trap set player, and the bass player toured with Prince, so we had a pretty solid rhythm section), and damn, we just showed up and sounded good, because we knew how to. The sound guy didn’t matter at all, and believe me, we didn’t have great sound guys (except for SXSW), we had the local bar dudes. But I can say that we never once complained about the sound guy, we only complained about the money!

I think anytime a band doesn't sound good, they need to take a long, honest look at themselves as the first link in the sound chain. And the problem is absolutely, very often that the members don't all have an understanding of dynamics! I was fortunate enough to be in some very good concert bands, with great instruction, in high school and college. I learned a lot about dynamics - obviously, in that setting there was no PA, so it's all about dynamics! And it's easy to see the difference between someone who has come from that background, and someone who hasn't. Often it comes from drummers and guitarists. I've played with some drummers that just have one volume, which is sawmill intensity stick shredding loud, they often learn parts by muscle memory and literally have to play at that volume to play the song correctly. It's a fundamental flaw in playing style, IMO, but when your selection of drummers is limited (as it almost always is if you're in a local band), sometimes it can't be avoided. When it comes to guitarists, it's the guys who point their speakers at their ankles, and then crank it up to 11 because they still can't hear themselves. With modern high gain amps, honestly, they don't always sound better as they get louder - with that much preamp distortion, which by nature takes away much of the nuance and definition already, you add a very hot power section, and end up with mud. I don't think guitarists often understand their amp isn't a Plexi that lives by way of a relatively lean, clean tone pushing the power section, and I've seen plenty of live sets ruined by "hot crap" tone from cascading gain stage amps. Especially when they sidefill with their amp, so the audience gets that 90 degree off axis tone that's so loud nothing can cover it up. Too often players don't realize that the sound they hear on stage can be very different from what the audience hears. So I guess my point is that the digitally modeled, level preset systems can help you avoid those problems altogether. You can call it an inadequacy on the part of the player, and sometimes it truly is, like in the case of the muscle memory drummer, but other times, is it really an inadequacy if you're just avoiding a potentially difficult to control variable, and is there anything inherently wrong with doing so? That variable being stage volume that can have an effect on overall sound and the players not understand how to control it? I'll use my stick shift vs automatic analogy again, but in a different way: Can someone not drive just as effectively with an automatic if they don't know how to drive a stick? Or did we just take away a difficult part of the process and automate it, to make the rest of the task easier?

I'll admit that you're absolutely correct about a very good, professional touring band having the collective talent to make their sound work no matter the venue, at least most of the time. You probably can't even get to that status as a band without all of the members having the talent and understanding to make it work the "old school" way. Although, I would be interested to know what Jamie would think about using a preset system for live sets, assuming tone from an amp vs. modeler was a non-issue for him. But for the bands that are just playing weekend gigs and rolling into the seedy venues, I still think a modeled and preset system is the most foolproof way to put on a good show. I don't know that I would agree that a sound guy can't screw up the sound, or that some shortcomings (depending on what they are) can't be avoided for by way of the sound guy being able to have more control and not having to fight stage volume.

It's that the modelers can do their sounds at lower volumes. Lower the stage volumes and everything is clearer. This is why as much as I agree with your post, I agree with Andys just as much. If you're in a band where every stage and room is a different size and shape, every room has a different amount of space behind the stage, a different ceiling height, etc., etc, and you work for a living and don't have a pro sound man, controlling your stage volume is the beginning of better sound. And it just builds from there... guys with big tube amps which aren't mic'd might be overpowering to some audience members and not loud enough to others. When you go digital and everything can be mixed in the mains, along with almost no stage bleed, you're now two big steps ahead, as far as sound quality to the whole audience.

And I'm not saying these things can't be accomplished with tube amps. But the bigger the amps and the louder the stage volume, the harder it is to get right.

I was going to talk about this, but I think I already did!

 

[László]

Man, this thread is getting REAL. But I like it, bring the chaos.



I think anytime a band doesn't sound good, they need to take a long, honest look at themselves as the first link in the sound chain. And the problem is absolutely, very often that the members don't all have an understanding of dynamics! I was fortunate enough to be in some very good concert bands, with great instruction, in high school and college. I learned a lot about dynamics - obviously, in that setting there was no PA, so it's all about dynamics! And it's easy to see the difference between someone who has come from that background, and someone who hasn't. Often it comes from drummers and guitarists. I've played with some drummers that just have one volume, which is sawmill intensity stick shredding loud, they often learn parts by muscle memory and literally have to play at that volume to play the song correctly. It's a fundamental flaw in playing style, IMO, but when your selection of drummers is limited (as it almost always is if you're in a local band), sometimes it can't be avoided. When it comes to guitarists, it's the guys who point their speakers at their ankles, and then crank it up to 11 because they still can't hear themselves. With modern high gain amps, honestly, they don't always sound better as they get louder - with that much preamp distortion, which by nature takes away much of the nuance and definition already, you add a very hot power section, and end up with mud. I don't think guitarists often understand their amp isn't a Plexi that lives by way of a relatively lean, clean tone pushing the power section, and I've seen plenty of live sets ruined by "hot crap" tone from cascading gain stage amps. Especially when they sidefill with their amp, so the audience gets that 90 degree off axis tone that's so loud nothing can cover it up. Too often players don't realize that the sound they hear on stage can be very different from what the audience hears. So I guess my point is that the digitally modeled, level preset systems can help you avoid those problems altogether. You can call it an inadequacy on the part of the player, and sometimes it truly is, like in the case of the muscle memory drummer, but other times, is it really an inadequacy if you're just avoiding a potentially difficult to control variable, and is there anything inherently wrong with doing so? That variable being stage volume that can have an effect on overall sound and the players not understand how to control it? I'll use my stick shift vs automatic analogy again, but in a different way: Can someone not drive just as effectively with an automatic if they don't know how to drive a stick? Or did we just take away a difficult part of the process and automate it, to make the rest of the task easier?

I'll admit that you're absolutely correct about a very good, professional touring band having the collective talent to make their sound work no matter the venue, at least most of the time. You probably can't even get to that status as a band without all of the members having the talent and understanding to make it work the "old school" way. Although, I would be interested to know what Jamie would think about using a preset system for live sets, assuming tone from an amp vs. modeler was a non-issue for him. But for the bands that are just playing weekend gigs and rolling into the seedy venues, I still think a modeled and preset system is the most foolproof way to put on a good show. I don't know that I would agree that a sound guy can't screw up the sound, or that some shortcomings (depending on what they are) can't be avoided for by way of the sound guy being able to have more control and not having to fight stage volume.



I was going to talk about this, but I think I already did!

Well, we definitely agree on all the important stuff, so clearly I didn’t “get” the thrust of what you were saying. Hey, it happens!

 

[Huggy Love]

 

[jxe]

not with those clothes it doesn’t. #shlubtone

 

[elvis]

I played in a band with a guy who used a rack mount pod. He sounded fantastic, even compared to my tube amp. Later we both switched to fractals. He still sounds fantastic.

 

[Huggy Love]

 

[Alnus Rubra]

I knew Les was a Super Hero!

 

[László]

I knew Les was a Super Hero!

Here’s my young sidekick:

 

[Huggy Love]

Here’s my young sidekick:

..... I don't know what's scarier.

The stare, old man cameltoe, or those rubber dishwashing gloves.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

..... I don't know what's scarier.

The stare, old man cameltoe, or those rubber dishwashing gloves.

Technically that’s called a moose knuckle.

 

[Mozzi]

Here’s my young sidekick:

Trying to Audition for Blind Melon?

'No Rain' is so early 90's...

 

[PietPompies]

There are plenty of guys who reckon the Kemper is good enough to replace a tube amp sound wise. But until they build a little spritz machine in it that squirts tubes cooking smeel, it ain't gonna replace the experience of plating a tube amp

 

[László]

Technically that’s called a moose knuckle.

In my day, we called it a codpiece.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Genuine laugh out loud. Nice Polaroid Les!

 

[bodia]

Here’s my young sidekick:

Is this the getup you wear when you decide to rearrange your space?

 

[jxe]

and for no reason my god damned crown fell off today, it’s like edwardian england out here. i think the local franchise is using horse glue.

Don't get me all excited!

 

[CandidPicker]

So far I've very much enjoyed mine. But, take with the appropriate grain of salt, I'm still in the honeymoon period, and I haven't used it live yet. The tones have quickly and easily matched the quality of what I've been able to record at home, although perhaps in a different way. I've gotten pretty good at positioning mics on my speakers, and I have a very concrete understanding of what my own cabinets do for tone. On the other hand, with the CAB M, I may not be as good at getting the very best out of a certain cab and mic combination like I have with my own cabs, but the added versatility of having many mics and cabs to choose from has already helped me get a wide variety of very good tones. I'm planning to buy a small pedalboard to mount my CAB M and Torpedo loadbox on, so it will be a "grab and go" unit. I was waiting for the time to be right to buy a UA OX, but when I saw the CAB M, the combination of price, size, the fact that it's intended to be used live and in the studio (the OX strikes me as more of a studio tool, although I've seen them on many stages), and some of the great sounds I've heard out of the Torpedo products over the years, made it an easy choice.

The small size of the CAB-M is what drew me towards it as well. I think we all enjoy the novelty of new gear, and much like when something new and exciting becomes part of our lives, we need to learn how to work with it, nurture it, interact with it, and hope it grows on us. TBH, I was also interested in the UA OX, but since I've previously owned Two Notes products, felt more as ease considering the CAB-M.

I wouldn't buy it intending to 100% nail a tone you're already getting - even if you were fortunate enough for there to be an IR of a speaker, cab, and mic combination that your'e already using, there are other factors that influence the character of that IR. For example, there are Mesa branded and licensed IR's of their cabs, and third party "knockoff" IR's, all captured on the same models of genuine Mesa cabs and with the same mics, but they sound different. What you want to keep in mind is that the CAB M is a very versatile tool, don't expect to 100% recreate a certain tone, expect to get some fantastic new ones. Especially if you hunt through the Two Notes store cabinet library, where you can very easily demo new cabs...Being so affordable, I would expect the used market to flood with these fairly quickly, so you shouldn't have a problem getting one at a great price relatively soon.

Regards comparison tube amp vs. cab emulation tones, I think in a few year's time technology will be very close to imitating actual tube amp tones, if not with the ability to push air the way real cabs or combos do, but for providing a close imitation of real tube amp tone. IR technology may essentially be the way to that, but it might be nice to see another way IR is offered via the Two Notes boutique store, with the ability to sample prior to purchase, of course. As with other modeling devices, IRs are offered either free or as paid goods from various 3rd-party websites...what would be cool would be to provide IRs that are universally downloadable for all modeling platforms...but since most guitarists play certain gear and may be associated with that particular brand of gear, this possibility may be long-time in the process of creating.

Just so that if pay-for-goods service is still offered with the cabinet library, this would still be considered a profitable venture for legal business entities so that illegal entities would be discouraged from providing goods (sounds too good to be true) without some basis for providing proof of their claim. I think the formula is that if "you're good," your product and claim will be as well, compared to the need to be warned about dangers or hazards that might occur from using said product. IOW, one doesn't give somebody something without expecting to receive equal compensation for it.

Forgive the cynicism, but I've known the people of this world as opportunists, far too desirous of what others' have for householders to safely trust the delivery company's system, especially once the package has been delivered. Once that doorbell has been rung, unless anyone is there to receive the package, the carton sits unguarded in public view. P.S. Lip service does nothing if the product is blatantly false, defective or dangerous. That differentiates legal entities from illegal ones, and thankfully, it leaves nothing left to guess about. If you're excited by something new arriving, congratulations. Hopefully some thief won't swipe your new arrival off your doorstep before you've welcomed it into your household.

However, it is my viewpoint that whenever someone in retail or online tries selling you something, be sure you know what you're buying. You don't wish to be on the hook for something of little or no value, so caveat emptor, and realize the person who rings your sale should be a qualified and legal entity. Just my common sense and experience speaking here, based on what the world's viewpoint is.

 

[László]

Is this the getup you wear when you decide to rearrange your space?

Nope. As stated, that’s my young sidekick in super-hero stuff.

I just wear my bathrobe and sweats when redoing my basement. Hey, will ya look it this! An iphone pic my wife took of me doing that very thing!

I have this bathrobe in grey, too. It really goes a little better with my complexion.

It’s pretty easy to move stuff around when one can make amps and cabs levitate.

 

[László]

Genuine laugh out loud. Nice Polaroid Les!

I look good there, right? Oh, to be young again!