Best Stage Guitar Amp Ever? (non prs content warning)

[László]

You see me in the studio, it's a tube amp, no question about it. That being said, especially from local gigging bands, the ones rocking modelers, and often their own sound system, much more often sound better as a band. Modern technology has made live sound a much more repeatable and consistent thing. IMO,

I’m sorry, I have to disagree with the premise.

People who can actually play well, not just by themselves, but with others, don’t need any special gear to sound like a great band. They sound excellent with modelers, and they sound excellent with tube gear, because they’re actually...good.

I’ll use my son’s band as an example, but only because I know what they did to prepare for their shows:

If you heard his band, Partybaby, on tour, you’d hear an example of a good live band composed of well-rehearsed professionals who understand dynamics, and have the ability to sound great regardless of where they’re playing. PB sounded great live on Carson Daly’s TV show with TV engineers, they sounded great opening for Tom Petty at Bottlerock with pro live sound guys, and they sounded just as great in small venues where I also heard them, in Columbus, Ohio, Pontiac, Michigan, and Detroit.

In other words, they’re a consistently great sounding band, because (a) they know what they’re doing; (b) everyone plays well with each other; (c) they prepared like crazy.

The last time they were in town, they played a decent little venue with an opening act that was on their label. Obviously, the same sound guys mixed both bands (there were two at this venue). The opening act sounded terrible and incoherent. Partybaby sounded fantastic. Same sound guys.

Maybe it’s because they spent three months rehearsing full-time, 8 hours a day, seven days a week, before playing in front of audiences, and two years full-time developing the songs?

In other words, maybe it’s because music is their profession, that they take seriously, just as you take your profession seriously enough to have studied it and got good at it by doing it 24/7.

The problem isn’t solved by the equipment; it’s solved by people who understand how to play their instruments and also how to be a band. I say this to anyone: if you don’t sound good live, don’t blame the sound guy. Listen to whatever the hell it is you’re doing, and get better at it.

That is the truth. The sound guy can’t make a bad band sound good, and frankly, can’t make a really good band sound awful. If your band sounds like crap, it ain’t the sound guy. It’s the band; the band needs to get better.

This isn’t a criticism of folks with day jobs and lives. It’s an acknowledgment that preparation and hard work pay off for anyone. If you need to, rent a rehearsal space, practice at gig volume, spend some vacation time playing together for as long as you can, and, miraculously, it won’t be about the sound guy. It’ll be about your well-rehearsed, excellent band.

Why do folks not turn out for live music these days? Well, mostly it’s because the music isn’t very much fun to listen to. Because most bands sound exactly like guys with day jobs and a music hobby.

Incidentally, this is why I have had such trepidation turning out my recordings. I realize that people are used to hearing the best people in the world’s records, and I worry about mine not being as good as theirs. So I’m not going to claim I’m a shining example of anything.

However, I will also say that the last band I played in, everyone was a touring/session pro (our drummer was the Detroit Symphony’s first-call trap set player, and the bass player toured with Prince, so we had a pretty solid rhythm section), and damn, we just showed up and sounded good, because we knew how to. The sound guy didn’t matter at all, and believe me, we didn’t have great sound guys (except for SXSW), we had the local bar dudes. But I can say that we never once complained about the sound guy, we only complained about the money!

 

[elvis]

Les, I agree. But for us day-job types who don't necessarily know how to tune the amps to fit together, it's nice that you can get an emulator that does it for you.

I have also learned from my emulator. Less gain, less low-frequencies. I now tune my amps more in that vein. I struggled with this in my last band.

 

[bodia]

i agree with this so much i would go out of network to have you as my dentist.

Don't get me all excited!

No doubt! Andy, best post in this thread. I could do a 3.5 hour drive, each way, twice a year!

 

[László]

Les, I agree. But for us day-job types who don't necessarily know how to tune the amps to fit together, it's nice that you can get an emulator that does it for you.

I have also learned from my emulator. Less gain, less low-frequencies. I now tune my amps more in that vein. I struggled with this in my last band.

But since the modelers model the actual amps, if you can set up the models, what’s so difficult about setting up the real thing?

Or is it simply a preset that comes with the model, “instant band mix?”

 

[Deleted member 5962]

It's that the modelers can do their sounds at lower volumes. Lower the stage volumes and everything is clearer. This is why as much as I agree with your post, I agree with Andys just as much. If you're in a band where every stage and room is a different size and shape, every room has a different amount of space behind the stage, a different ceiling height, etc., etc, and you work for a living and don't have a pro sound man, controlling your stage volume is the beginning of better sound. And it just builds from there... guys with big tube amps which aren't mic'd might be overpowering to some audience members and not loud enough to others. When you go digital and everything can be mixed in the mains, along with almost no stage bleed, you're now two big steps ahead, as far as sound quality to the whole audience.

And I'm not saying these things can't be accomplished with tube amps. But the bigger the amps and the louder the stage volume, the harder it is to get right.

 

[elvis]

But since the modelers model the actual amps, if you can set up the models, what’s so difficult about setting up the real thing?

Or is it simply a preset that comes with the model, “instant band mix?”

With the AXE I was able to find a bunch of models out of the box that were band-ready. Zero tweaking.

OTOH, I have always avoided taking the time turning knobs on amps and programming effects, so I usually work with either out of box settings of something I find on the internet. In the last couple of years I actually really dug in and started turning amp knobs and feel much more confident with that, and have been able to dial several amps to tones I really like. Wish I'd done that 30 years ago.

I still don't want to put the time into tweaking digital presets.

 

[László]

And I'm not saying these things can't be accomplished with tube amps. But the bigger the amps and the louder the stage volume, the harder it is to get right.

But I see bands that have no problem whatsoever getting their stage volume right, tube amps or modelers.

Hell, I was in bands that had no problems with it.

I’m sorry, but if a band has good players who understand dynamics, and rehearse correctly, this ain’t rocket science.

The problem is that too many guitar players are very, very taken with themselves and frickin’ play at top volume, regardless of what the rest of the band’s doing, because of cluelessness, not because of tubes or models or whatever. Just my two cents.

 

[jxe]

so true, volume is rarely the answer to bad playing. and these guitarists who hit every note the same, i can not deal.

But I see bands that have no problem whatsoever getting their stage volume right, tube amps or modelers.

Hell, I was in bands that had no problems with it.

I’m sorry, but if a band has good players who understand dynamics, and rehearse correctly, this ain’t rocket science.

The problem is that too many guitar players are very, very taken with themselves and frickin’ play at top volume, regardless of what the rest of the band’s doing, because of cluelessness, not because of tubes or models or whatever. Just my two cents.

 

[László]

Actually, I’m feeling like I seem a bit harsh, and tough on bands, and don’t mean to be.

What I want to do, regardless of amp ‘religion’, is encourage bands to understand dynamics, and for players to learn to give bandmates space, and listen to each other’s playing.

Great bands do that, and it’s so worth the effort. It’ll also help audiences appreciate the music. A win, in other words, for everybody.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I’m sorry, I have to disagree with the premise.

People who can actually play well, not just by themselves, but with others, don’t need any special gear to sound like a great band. They sound excellent with modelers, and they sound excellent with tube gear, because they’re actually...good.

I’ll use my son’s band as an example, but only because I know what they did to prepare for their shows:

If you heard his band, Partybaby, on tour, you’d hear an example of a good live band composed of well-rehearsed professionals who understand dynamics, and have the ability to sound great regardless of where they’re playing. PB sounded great live on Carson Daly’s TV show with TV engineers, they sounded great opening for Tom Petty at Bottlerock with pro live sound guys, and they sounded just as great in small venues where I also heard them, in Columbus, Ohio, Pontiac, Michigan, and Detroit.

In other words, they’re a consistently great sounding band, because (a) they know what they’re doing; (b) everyone plays well with each other; (c) they prepared like crazy.

The last time they were in town, they played a decent little venue with an opening act that was on their label. Obviously, the same sound guys mixed both bands (there were two at this venue). The opening act sounded terrible and incoherent. Partybaby sounded fantastic. Same sound guys.

Maybe it’s because they spent three months rehearsing full-time, 8 hours a day, seven days a week, before playing in front of audiences, and two years full-time developing the songs?

In other words, maybe it’s because music is their profession, that they take seriously, just as you take your profession seriously enough to have studied it and got good at it by doing it 24/7.

The problem isn’t solved by the equipment; it’s solved by people who understand how to play their instruments and also how to be a band. I say this to anyone: if you don’t sound good live, don’t blame the sound guy. Listen to whatever the hell it is you’re doing, and get better at it.

That is the truth. The sound guy can’t make a bad band sound good, and frankly, can’t make a really good band sound awful. If your band sounds like crap, it ain’t the sound guy. It’s the band; the band needs to get better.

This isn’t a criticism of folks with day jobs and lives. It’s an acknowledgment that preparation and hard work pay off for anyone. If you need to, rent a rehearsal space, practice at gig volume, spend some vacation time playing together for as long as you can, and, miraculously, it won’t be about the sound guy. It’ll be about your well-rehearsed, excellent band.

Why do folks not turn out for live music these days? Well, mostly it’s because the music isn’t very much fun to listen to. Because most bands sound exactly like guys with day jobs and a music hobby.

Incidentally, this is why I have had such trepidation turning out my recordings. I realize that people are used to hearing the best people in the world’s records, and I worry about mine not being as good as theirs. So I’m not going to claim I’m a shining example of anything.

However, I will also say that the last band I played in, everyone was a touring/session pro (our drummer was the Detroit Symphony’s first-call trap set player, and the bass player toured with Prince, so we had a pretty solid rhythm section), and damn, we just showed up and sounded good, because we knew how to. The sound guy didn’t matter at all, and believe me, we didn’t have great sound guys (except for SXSW), we had the local bar dudes. But I can say that we never once complained about the sound guy, we only complained about the money!

As someone who’s recorded at least a hundred sucky bands in life, I agree with this.

 

[CandidPicker]

...So, that's my take on digital modeling. If you're a big enough deal that you have a pro sound engineer to make you sound great, sure, play that tube amp! If you have the whole afternoon to set up at the bar for your cover gig, sure, play that tube amp! But if you have to roll in to the gig and get set up an hour before the show, and the bar is already full... yeah, maybe you should get a programmable... everything...

Andy, you're speaking to a great crowd of folks who are in the same frame of mind. Folks who are usually guest players at open-mics or blues jams that are hosted by a house band don't usually have an opportunity to perform a detailed soundcheck with their gear before the venue begins, and no matter how eager you may be, the host or his sound guy typically is the authority we all might need to listen to, even though we know our gear implicitly. The host or soundguy doesn't have time in his schedule, especially just an hour before showtime, to learn about how your gear does in a live setting

...Do I still play a big @$$ pedalboard and a tube amp? Yep. I don't feel bad about it, because it was a necessity on my path as a guitarist. Until recently, I haven't considered modeling technology to sound good enough to consider it a viable alternative. Not to mention my band didn't have/couldn't afford our own sound system, so relying on whatever sound system was at the venue to be able to hear myself wasn't an option. Now I've got thousands of dollars sunk into this very modular gear, so throwing everything out for a whole new system is a tough pill to swallow, especially when I've got something I really like and can cherry pick pieces that will make it even better. But, if I had to start all over today, I would look HARD at modelers for live use, no question about it. I recently got a Torpedo cab emulator, and I'm already quite sure it will be added to my live arsenal over a physical cab when the occasion allows, so I am taking steps towards reducing those variables.

Taken out of context, this just about agrees with most hobbyist or semi-pro musicians' viewpoints (not speaking for them, though most folks might agree here). I was in the same boat about a month and half ago thinking about scrapping my tube amp for a preamp/Torpedo CAB-M and learning how to adjust to listening to my guitar tones through my computer monitors. While it'd be possible to sell my amp and buy the preamp/CAB-M and have plenty of money remaining, the venture would still be akin to buying a pig-in-a-poke; I'd not know the results of my guitar tone until I'd actually heard it through my computer monitors. And no, buying new gear before selling old is not an option currently.

The CAB-M is still on my radar screen, though, and perhaps that is what is the difference between thinking about something, taking my time, choosing wisely, and making a good decision rather than a hasty or bad one. Perhaps when the time comes, I'll have saved enough cash for the CAB-M rather than put it on credit and try to pay it off over an extended time. And no, I need my kidneys, so no attempted pre-rationalization there.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

But I see bands that have no problem whatsoever getting their stage volume right, tube amps or modelers.

Hell, I was in bands that had no problems with it.

I’m sorry, but if a band has good players who understand dynamics, and rehearse correctly, this ain’t rocket science.

The problem is that too many guitar players are very, very taken with themselves and frickin’ play at top volume, regardless of what the rest of the band’s doing, because of cluelessness, not because of tubes or models or whatever. Just my two cents.

Need to be clear. I’m not arguing with you, but I see and hear and deal with both as well. I hadvea friend in a “good” local band. The kind that plays to packed bars on weekends so often they get asked to do much bigger things a few times a year (like 3-4K people crowds) and they have their own band merchandise, etc. He said that on consecutive weekends his band played to crowds of 300-500 on a Saturday night. Week 1, his combo amp was literally placed against the back wall. The sage was wide but very shallow. Bass player, same thing. Amp ON the wall. Room was wide, but not very deep, and low-ish ceiling. A week later, the stage was 20 feet deep but, the back of the stage was curtains. And behind those curtains was a back stage area that was another 20 feet. So his amp was literally 30 feet from the back wall. The room was 50 feet wide, and over 150 feet deep with high arched ceilings (an old converted theater).

Without the time for further examples, remember that 1.6dB change you made at a certain frequency in your music room by adding more sound insulation? How close do you figure his amp sounded from gig 1 to gig 2? They normally set the band up in such a fashion that they only run vocals through the monitors because the guitars can hear each other, the bass and the drums.

So what I’m wondering is, while I have no problem believing that touring bands with their own gear and sound men could deal with both, just how well do you think the average bar with their house sound guy deals with it, regardless of how good the band is. I’m confident that if the monitors and system are there, I could run both to their satisfaction. Ha, rock bands would be child’s play after what I try to deal with every week. So it’s not just how professional the band is. And the band/sound system/pro sound guys thing you are talking about is way far from the norm.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

But I see bands that have no problem whatsoever getting their stage volume right, tube amps or modelers.

Hell, I was in bands that had no problems with it.

I’m sorry, but if a band has good players who understand dynamics, and rehearse correctly, this ain’t rocket science.

The problem is that too many guitar players are very, very taken with themselves and frickin’ play at top volume, regardless of what the rest of the band’s doing, because of cluelessness, not because of tubes or models or whatever. Just my two cents.

Exactly, if you’re in a band play as one!

 

[Mozzi]

From my perspective, its not that 'great' bands cannot set up and play with real amps, whether they have a sound guy or not, the various sizes of the places they are playing and system they have to accommodate each time etc etc. I am sure they can take in their Amps, their Cabs, their Mics, etc and spend time doing sound checks to ensure that their 'sound' is as it should be for that particular venue.

What Amp Modellers offer though is that consistency and ease of use, that reliability too. They are not carrying around so much gear, not having to be so careful with setting up, not needing back-ups or spare parts to fix amps if the Valve blows or something happens to it. Its much simpler and easier. It saves on weight too if you are travelling on a tour, flying to places.

Its not that these bands cannot set up and play a gig with Tube Amps, cannot tweak them for each individual place to ensure it sounds right etc - the majority of the big 'bands' that have now switched to Kempers or equivalent have done the big tours with a big stack of Amps, Cabs etc, flown or trucked these around the world. They too though have had 'something' happen, like an Amp has blown and someone has had to rush around to try and get a replacement in that area before the gig. As things changed, those 'big' walls of Amps and Cabs became just for Show and 'empty' in the back, the signal going to a small amp somewhere with a Mic or two and being fed into a PA. I am sure these bands 'could' still do it that way too if they wanted/needed. Nowaday's though, its easier to skip that little amp and create a Digital Model that goes straight into the PA.

That also gives them the freedom to have a different Amp/Cab/Mic combination for 'every' song if they wanted a completely different patch with a different combination of pedals too - all at the flick of a foot-switch. Go from a Fender for a clean sound intro into a Mesa Boogie for the chugging rhythm to a Marshall for a Solo - all with different pedals and/or settings. Instead of having 3 or 4 different delay pedals for different parts of a song requiring different settings and not wanting to bend down to tweak them each time, you can have a 'patch' set-up with the exact settings for each part, all with just a single stomp o the foot.

I am not saying that the 'Amp/Cab/Mic' is defunct or that artists could not, if push comes to shove, use a traditional set up and dial in their sound - at least not those that have been around the block and/or started 'small'. The majority of Guitarists I know started with a 'real' amp. They then moved up to a bigger amp when playing pubs and clubs, they were also the ones who would have to lug their gear into the venue, set it up, sound check it and then pack it away after the gig. They were practising/rehearsing with real amps. There are still a lot of 'live' gigs that artists are using real amps too. I would think that the majority of those that are moving over to digital modellers for the 'stage' are those that have used real amps, dialled in real amps, sound checked real amps etc at some point in their career. I doubt many bought their first electric guitar and a Kemper, doubt that many got into a band and rehearsed, gigged with just an Amp Modeller.

I do think that Amp Modellers have a lot of advantages for a gigging musician, for the rigours of touring etc. Whether they are the 'best' for everyone, I very much doubt it but they do have a place. As PRS say about their Guitars, they are a 'tool' to do the job, hopefully the 'best' tool for that artist and Digital modellers are a tool too. The fact that an artists sound, for any song or part of that, can be stored and backed up so even if their Kemper blows up, they can simply upload their entire sound again - not try and find an exact copy of their vintage amp with the same mods etc to replace their broken amp. These artists can still practise, rehearse and record with real amps, keeping them safe in the studio and take that sound around the world in something that fits in 'hand luggage'. It may only be a 'touring' tool for them just because its easier, cheaper, more consistent and more reliable to tour with. That doesn't mean that these artists cannot dial in their tone etc if they (or their sound engineer) had to. These days, you can literally have your entire rig (Pedals, amps, mics etc) in a Helix and only need that and your Guitar to tour with. Again, not saying its 'better' at all, just saying its easier, cheaper etc than carrying a big Pedal board with all those cables and power leads, amps, cabs, mics etc.

I do think its 'snobby' to criticise bands/artists that do use digital modellers instead of using real Amps. There is snobbery over those that have a Solid State amp and not a Valve amp. Its like criticising those that have an SE or even an S2 instead of buying Core (or better) or using an all in one pedal board like a Helix LT/Floor, Headrush or Boss GT1000 instead of buying individual pedals and building their own Pedal board. These are all tools for a musician to use to create their music with - whether its budget constraints or just the fact that the right 'tool' for the Job that the musician needed (whether that is for ease, for reliability, for their sound etc) happens to be something other than the expensive guitar into an expensive purpose built pedal board that goes into an expensive Amp head, into a large cab or two with expensive mics carefully positioned...

 

[László]

From my perspective, its not that 'great' bands cannot set up and play with real amps, whether they have a sound guy or not, the various sizes of the places they are playing and system they have to accommodate each time etc etc. I am sure they can take in their Amps, their Cabs, their Mics, etc and spend time doing sound checks to ensure that their 'sound' is as it should be for that particular venue.
.........

I do think its 'snobby' to criticise bands/artists that do use digital modellers instead of using real Amps.

Reply to point one:

I saw my son’s band roll into several venues with tube amps, no soundcheck, and sound great. I mention this because he’s a contemporary guy whose band tours. I’ve done it myself for 47 years. It’s easy.

In fact, it’s every bit as easy as using a modeller, which still needs to be set at the right levels vis a vis other band members (esp. drums).

And with direct load boxes, it’s 100% as easy to go direct with a tube amp and still sound great, if that’s what you’re into.

My own thought is that soundchecks are somewhat BS at small venues. It’s not like there’s a huge space with multiple time-delayed speaker arrays, like you find at a big venue. A band that can’t get a sound at a bar without a soundcheck needs to rehearse more, because it ain’t all that different from a rehearsal space.

Reply to point two:

I don’t criticize bands that use whatever the hell they choose to use. My tube amp advocacy is neither snobbery nor criticism - it’s an observation about sound quality.

I extol the virtues of real amps because I think they sound better. But if a band sounds good with modelers, great! More power to ‘em!

The joke is that a great tube amp can be gotten for less money that a decent modeller.

 

[jxe]

i looked at a load box yesterday that cost more than a decent tube combo. and it won’t store my gin and sandwich.

 

[elvis]

My combo tube amp plus HX Effects unit is my go-to at the moment. Not nearly as flexible as my AXE, but sounds great. And to Les's point, was less expensive.

I put this rig together explicitly as a small, simple alternative to the AXE.

 

[elvis]

Oddly, I've tried to give sound guys a DI from my rig, and they chose to mic me anyway.

Sound guys

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Sound guys

Hey now! (yeah, I know. I hear this all the time). A lot of people are "sound guys" that either don't know much about it, don't have an ear, or... both.

 

[andy474x]

Andy, you're speaking to a great crowd of folks who are in the same frame of mind. Folks who are usually guest players at open-mics or blues jams that are hosted by a house band don't usually have an opportunity to perform a detailed soundcheck with their gear before the venue begins, and no matter how eager you may be, the host or his sound guy typically is the authority we all might need to listen to, even though we know our gear implicitly. The host or soundguy doesn't have time in his schedule, especially just an hour before showtime, to learn about how your gear does in a live setting



Taken out of context, this just about agrees with most hobbyist or semi-pro musicians' viewpoints (not speaking for them, though most folks might agree here). I was in the same boat about a month and half ago thinking about scrapping my tube amp for a preamp/Torpedo CAB-M and learning how to adjust to listening to my guitar tones through my computer monitors. While it'd be possible to sell my amp and buy the preamp/CAB-M and have plenty of money remaining, the venture would still be akin to buying a pig-in-a-poke; I'd not know the results of my guitar tone until I'd actually heard it through my computer monitors. And no, buying new gear before selling old is not an option currently.

The CAB-M is still on my radar screen, though, and perhaps that is what is the difference between thinking about something, taking my time, choosing wisely, and making a good decision rather than a hasty or bad one. Perhaps when the time comes, I'll have saved enough cash for the CAB-M rather than put it on credit and try to pay it off over an extended time. And no, I need my kidneys, so no attempted pre-rationalization there.

So far I've very much enjoyed mine. But, take with the appropriate grain of salt, I'm still in the honeymoon period, and I haven't used it live yet. The tones have quickly and easily matched the quality of what I've been able to record at home, although perhaps in a different way. I've gotten pretty good at positioning mics on my speakers, and I have a very concrete understanding of what my own cabinets do for tone. On the other hand, with the CAB M, I may not be as good at getting the very best out of a certain cab and mic combination like I have with my own cabs, but the added versatility of having many mics and cabs to choose from has already helped me get a wide variety of very good tones. I'm planning to buy a small pedalboard to mount my CAB M and Torpedo loadbox on, so it will be a "grab and go" unit. I was waiting for the time to be right to buy a UA OX, but when I saw the CAB M, the combination of price, size, the fact that it's intended to be used live and in the studio (the OX strikes me as more of a studio tool, although I've seen them on many stages), and some of the great sounds I've heard out of the Torpedo products over the years, made it an easy choice.


I wouldn't buy it intending to 100% nail a tone you're already getting - even if you were fortunate enough for there to be an IR of a speaker, cab, and mic combination that your'e already using, there are other factors that influence the character of that IR. For example, there are Mesa branded and licensed IR's of their cabs, and third party "knockoff" IR's, all captured on the same models of genuine Mesa cabs and with the same mics, but they sound different. What you want to keep in mind is that the CAB M is a very versatile tool, don't expect to 100% recreate a certain tone, expect to get some fantastic new ones. Especially if you hunt through the Two Notes store cabinet library, where you can very easily demo new cabs.

Being so affordable, I would expect the used market to flood with these fairly quickly, so you shouldn't have a problem getting one at a great price relatively soon.