What is TCI? Myth or reality
- Thread starter Domingo Lantigua
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That’s an interesting response, given that PRS tells you exactly what they are doing. That’s not some “we changed something but we can’t tell you what. It’s our secret” crap. It’s a real change and they aren’t hiding what they do.
Honestly, I’ve wondered for YEARS why nobody did this already, on every guitar. This volume pots are all over the place and even if you only kept 25% of the ones you bought, they’d still only be “close” to the spec you designed for. This is far from black magic marketing BS. This is something I wondered about 30 years ago when I got into DIY.
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Here's the trick I have been posting for a couple of years on a few other forums: If your guitar does not sound the way you want then go in this order, testing at each adjustment, maybe even over a couple of days as your ears get fatigued if all in one go...
1-adjust pickup heights and screw poles. Dropping a humbucker to the trim ring and raising the screw poles 1/8th inch will give you a much improved clean tone.
2-Measure current pots and caps, find others either higher or lower in kohms/uF. Pots and caps push the tone around even when the knobs are dimed.
3-Swap your pickups and start at the top of the list. Most players swap $200 pickup sets over and over again hoping they match to the $20 of pots and caps in the guitar ... so be smart and swap the controls first.
Pots have a normal 20% tolerance range. If you know 250k vs 500k in single coil vs humbucker guitars changes the tone, and 250k is 50% of 500k, you can understand the immediate impact of the production pot tolerance range. It's worked for decades because player A likes a brighter guitar and player B likes a darker guitar, they both "run the racks" and eventually find the guitar they like. From a factory aspect you want to minimize the variation and a 20% band is going to make some customers upset that they bought a $4k guitar and it's muddy (marketer says warm!) or ice-pick (marketer says bright!). Also note that just buying a 1% military spec 500k pot may not get what you are after, your guitar may sound best with a 550k or with a 450k pot. Some old Gibsons were build with 300k pots (which was nominal target with 20% variation around them).
If you notice, no pickup manufacturer posts a tolerance on their pickups. It's "8 kohms" but nothing more detailed. Some vendors will even tell you that "kohms" don't matter, but they only give a bar chart for treble/mids/bass frequency without any scale on the chart ... and then not any tolerance on that. It will be interesting to see if PRS publishes detailed specs and tolerances on their pickups now that they are promoting "TCI".
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Here's the trick I have been posting for a couple of years on a few other forums: If your guitar does not sound the way you want then go in this order, testing at each adjustment, maybe even over a couple of days as your ears get fatigued if all in one go...
1-adjust pickup heights and screw poles. Dropping a humbucker to the trim ring and raising the screw poles 1/8th inch will give you a much improved clean tone.
2-Measure current pots and caps, find others either higher or lower in kohms/uF. Pots and caps push the tone around even when the knobs are dimed.
3-Swap your pickups and start at the top of the list. Most players swap $200 pickup sets over and over again hoping they match to the $20 of pots and caps in the guitar ... so be smart and swap the controls first.
Pots have a normal 20% tolerance range. If you know 250k vs 500k in single coil vs humbucker guitars changes the tone, and 250k is 50% of 500k, you can understand the immediate impact of the production pot tolerance range. It's worked for decades because player A likes a brighter guitar and player B likes a darker guitar, they both "run the racks" and eventually find the guitar they like. From a factory aspect you want to minimize the variation and a 20% band is going to make some customers upset that they bought a $4k guitar and it's muddy (marketer says warm!) or ice-pick (marketer says bright!). Also note that just buying a 1% military spec 500k pot may not get what you are after, your guitar may sound best with a 550k or with a 450k pot. Some old Gibsons were build with 300k pots (which was nominal target with 20% variation around them).
If you notice, no pickup manufacturer posts a tolerance on their pickups. It's "8 kohms" but nothing more detailed. Some vendors will even tell you that "kohms" don't matter, but they only give a bar chart for treble/mids/bass frequency without any scale on the chart ... and then not any tolerance on that. It will be interesting to see if PRS publishes detailed specs and tolerances on their pickups now that they are promoting "TCI".
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I’m going to weigh in here. I have a background in physics and I worked in experimental physics. The variation in potentiometers is a variance in the maximum resistance. So in terms of a volume control the value at full attenuation. For a tone control it would effect the point at which high frequencies start to attenuate. Yes the pickups form an LCR network with the pots (and tone control capacitor) which has a frequency response and likely one (or more) resonant frequencies.
But the variation in the pots would only effect the circuit in it’s behavior at the extreme pot settings. In the case of volume, not in an audible way as the signal is fully attenuated (at least as I understand guitar controls).
But the variation in the pots would only effect the circuit in it’s behavior at the extreme pot settings. In the case of volume, not in an audible way as the signal is fully attenuated (at least as I understand guitar controls).
Domingo Lantigua
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I see the 2020's are starting to arrive , maybe someone will take a pic of what's under the hood, For sanity's sake. Or Ill just have to buy one and dissect it.
But they are TCI-S pickups, whatever that means.
Andrew Paul
The cat's meow
Great article, I’m beginning to understand now. Thanks
shinksma
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heh, hadn't picked up (pun intended) on that.
Hmm, perhaps @Shawn@PRS can illuminate us on that? I don't recall seeing anything specific, but as already shown, my memory is just like a...umm...something.
Mozzi
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It could be that as pots, resistors and pick-ups do vary even if they are made exactly the same, that they match the values to get the tone they want. A 500k Pot for example could vary from 470-530k and with the variation in the Pick-ups too, using a mathematical formula know exactly what value resistor to put in to get the exact tone they want - instead of just taking the next pickup, pot and resistor and putting them in - a more considered approach.
If that was the case, you wouldn't really see any noticeable difference but each part of the electrical components were selected on purpose rather than random because they knew exactly what the values of each were. If its based on mathematical equation for example, that could be implemented in their SE line too without too much hassle. Just need to know the exact value of each so they can pick the right parts to put together instead of random selection.
It makes sense to me to do it that way because if you just change something in the Pick-ups, the way its constructed for example, you will still get the variation in the pots for example which would impact the sound regardless of how consistent the PU's are. I am NOT an expert or have 'insider' information at all so I could be totally wrong but if I am right, you would not see a vast difference inside the cavity anyway because the parts would look the same - the only difference being that PRS purposefully picked those parts because of their 'value' rather than picked the part because it just so happened to be the next one to be installed.
If that was the case, you wouldn't really see any noticeable difference but each part of the electrical components were selected on purpose rather than random because they knew exactly what the values of each were. If its based on mathematical equation for example, that could be implemented in their SE line too without too much hassle. Just need to know the exact value of each so they can pick the right parts to put together instead of random selection.
It makes sense to me to do it that way because if you just change something in the Pick-ups, the way its constructed for example, you will still get the variation in the pots for example which would impact the sound regardless of how consistent the PU's are. I am NOT an expert or have 'insider' information at all so I could be totally wrong but if I am right, you would not see a vast difference inside the cavity anyway because the parts would look the same - the only difference being that PRS purposefully picked those parts because of their 'value' rather than picked the part because it just so happened to be the next one to be installed.
This is fairly obvious to people who know about how filters are built. Passive filters, such as crossovers are built using various inductors (L), capacitors (C), and resistors (R), also known as LCR circuits. These can also be used to form resonant circuits. The resonant frequency occurs at:
f = 1/(2pi x sqrt(LC))
so in only considering the dc resistance you are no capturing the full effect of the circuit in term of frequency response. However, for a given wire and magnet R, L, and C are all proportional to the number of winds. So the resonant frequency is inversely proportional to the number of winds for a given wire and magnet.
f = 1/(2pi x sqrt(LC))
so in only considering the dc resistance you are no capturing the full effect of the circuit in term of frequency response. However, for a given wire and magnet R, L, and C are all proportional to the number of winds. So the resonant frequency is inversely proportional to the number of winds for a given wire and magnet.
JustRob
Zombie Six, DFZ
Bluesverb
Currently in a long term relationship with myself!
The point of this thread, IMHO, isn't that Paul discovered Physics, is that he has possibly figured out how to properly tune a guitar's pickup to a specific resonance in a consistent manner AND Marketed it in a way that we buy into it. There are so many electrical and physical variables, that creates different permutations, that will produce different sounding pickups. For example, for 1 type of pickup, if you torque the bobbins too much or too little, it will resonate differently. Will an LCR meter pick that up??
If you read all my posts for the past 2 months, I love PRS guitars and think they are a great guitar company. Where I have a problem, per say, is that people aren't open to other people's opinions. The fact is that there is a marketing aspect to sell you a $5000 guitar. Therefore, if Paul or any other employee/die hard fan says that there is a new way or better product, etc...people will defend it to the core, regardless of anyone's thoughts, opinions, degrees, work and experiences.
There HAS to be a myth or magic secret sauce, a list, a recipe, etc...to keep the mystic lore going. I remember 10-15 years ago, dealers were charging premiums on 1990's "pre-factory" PRS guitars, because they had more "soul". For a more recent example, the V-12 finish was the best of the old and new!!!! What happened to it? Why are all guitars going to Nitro? Cost? Tone? Feel?
Manufacturers always market to the positive. For example, cereal manufacturers started cutting out all artificial colors/ingredients. The fact is that took nonvalue added cost out of their products, and advertised it as a health benefit. The "Bran" was used to use as cow food and was essentially a waste product of making cereal. Than, it was discovered that it absorbs cholesterol in the intestines, and suddenly, their was a healthier cereal if it had "Bran" in it. The price of bran went up, and so did cow feed!
The point to my opinion, which doesn't mean I am right about what PRS does, is that we don't actually know why things come about. We only know what we are told. If you believe something is true, than it will be. Tone or price reduction? No idea. I pick up a guitar, and I like what I like. Narrowfields rock and Swamp Ash bodies, or alder, are perfect for my tastes. However, the sales didn't support narrow fields. Ultimately, the customer/market drives production.
From my past experiences/career:
Tuned Capacitance Inductance are old radio engineering terms used to narrow in a specific Frequency/band width. As if you tune your 60s or 70's radio knob on your Am'FM radio. You are more than likely tuning a variable capacitor with air being the dielectric.
Oh wait...... you millennials don't know what I am talking about. Don't worry I am sure there is an App for it! LOL
If you look at Xc or Xl or any formulas to include "Q" type equations, along with mutual inductance equations, you can see how any one attribute variable will effect the equation. You need special equipment to measure inductance and magnetic fields and I assume Paul has everything he needs.
Don't forget a humbucker will have Series Mutual Inductance. A coil will induce a magnetic field into the other coil in a Humbucker. Yes, like a transformer. I am going back a bit to the 80's and college so I could be making all this up. LOL
Now how PRS specifically "tunes" their pickups is their secret. They probably measure certain components and adjust spacing, windings etc.. to end up with a certain Q. What are the bobbins torqued too? Base Plate mass? Physical attributes are just as important as electrical.
If you focus just on 1 attribute, say an Ohmage reading, than that could be misleading. For example: 2x10=20. Right? If you need the number "20" as an end result of an equation, then 1x20, 2x10, 4x5 all get you there. Therefore, in theory, you can adjust electrical parameters to compensate for other parameters. However, one parameter may be more musically sounding than the other. A lot depends on on your harmonics that are generated from your resonant frequency, and which attributes have a more negative impact than others.
For example, Fender used Chokes (an Inductor) to filter out 60 cycle hum in their amps. Today, people use resistors as part of the circuit (as in Mesa Boogies, any modern amp, etc.). Resistors are cheaper. However, it all depends on the engineering, parts, and what end result the engineer and sales department can agree to.
BTW - this line of "theory" is what got Fender in trouble with their amps when CBS took them over. The theory and physics may be correct electrically but it may not be "musical" sounding. Tubes vs Transistors? Modeling? Class D amps?
Please, just my opinion based off of my knowledge/experiences.
If you read all my posts for the past 2 months, I love PRS guitars and think they are a great guitar company. Where I have a problem, per say, is that people aren't open to other people's opinions. The fact is that there is a marketing aspect to sell you a $5000 guitar. Therefore, if Paul or any other employee/die hard fan says that there is a new way or better product, etc...people will defend it to the core, regardless of anyone's thoughts, opinions, degrees, work and experiences.
There HAS to be a myth or magic secret sauce, a list, a recipe, etc...to keep the mystic lore going. I remember 10-15 years ago, dealers were charging premiums on 1990's "pre-factory" PRS guitars, because they had more "soul". For a more recent example, the V-12 finish was the best of the old and new!!!! What happened to it? Why are all guitars going to Nitro? Cost? Tone? Feel?
Manufacturers always market to the positive. For example, cereal manufacturers started cutting out all artificial colors/ingredients. The fact is that took nonvalue added cost out of their products, and advertised it as a health benefit. The "Bran" was used to use as cow food and was essentially a waste product of making cereal. Than, it was discovered that it absorbs cholesterol in the intestines, and suddenly, their was a healthier cereal if it had "Bran" in it. The price of bran went up, and so did cow feed!
The point to my opinion, which doesn't mean I am right about what PRS does, is that we don't actually know why things come about. We only know what we are told. If you believe something is true, than it will be. Tone or price reduction? No idea. I pick up a guitar, and I like what I like. Narrowfields rock and Swamp Ash bodies, or alder, are perfect for my tastes. However, the sales didn't support narrow fields. Ultimately, the customer/market drives production.
From my past experiences/career:
Tuned Capacitance Inductance are old radio engineering terms used to narrow in a specific Frequency/band width. As if you tune your 60s or 70's radio knob on your Am'FM radio. You are more than likely tuning a variable capacitor with air being the dielectric.
Oh wait...... you millennials don't know what I am talking about. Don't worry I am sure there is an App for it! LOL
If you look at Xc or Xl or any formulas to include "Q" type equations, along with mutual inductance equations, you can see how any one attribute variable will effect the equation. You need special equipment to measure inductance and magnetic fields and I assume Paul has everything he needs.
Don't forget a humbucker will have Series Mutual Inductance. A coil will induce a magnetic field into the other coil in a Humbucker. Yes, like a transformer. I am going back a bit to the 80's and college so I could be making all this up. LOL
Now how PRS specifically "tunes" their pickups is their secret. They probably measure certain components and adjust spacing, windings etc.. to end up with a certain Q. What are the bobbins torqued too? Base Plate mass? Physical attributes are just as important as electrical.
If you focus just on 1 attribute, say an Ohmage reading, than that could be misleading. For example: 2x10=20. Right? If you need the number "20" as an end result of an equation, then 1x20, 2x10, 4x5 all get you there. Therefore, in theory, you can adjust electrical parameters to compensate for other parameters. However, one parameter may be more musically sounding than the other. A lot depends on on your harmonics that are generated from your resonant frequency, and which attributes have a more negative impact than others.
For example, Fender used Chokes (an Inductor) to filter out 60 cycle hum in their amps. Today, people use resistors as part of the circuit (as in Mesa Boogies, any modern amp, etc.). Resistors are cheaper. However, it all depends on the engineering, parts, and what end result the engineer and sales department can agree to.
BTW - this line of "theory" is what got Fender in trouble with their amps when CBS took them over. The theory and physics may be correct electrically but it may not be "musical" sounding. Tubes vs Transistors? Modeling? Class D amps?
Please, just my opinion based off of my knowledge/experiences.
Domingo Lantigua
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@Bluesverb, I was just thinking the same thing 
, very intelligent post. I don't think we'll ever know until someone with the proper testing equipment sacrifices a guitar or someone from PRS clears it up.
, very intelligent post. I don't think we'll ever know until someone with the proper testing equipment sacrifices a guitar or someone from PRS clears it up.
This thread reminded me again of this excellent article on the connection between the electrical characteristics of a pickup and sound: http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/
Bluesverb
Currently in a long term relationship with myself!
You sir, ROCK. (JoarE)
That article is exactly what I was trying to convey, electrically. Now, lets see if TCI can be copyrighted!!!!
That article is exactly what I was trying to convey, electrically. Now, lets see if TCI can be copyrighted!!!!
Bluesverb
Currently in a long term relationship with myself!
Thank you!!! There are so many haters, I believed I was getting threats for having an opinion. The magic is in the fingers, not in your guitar.@Bluesverb, I was just thinking the same thing
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