What is TCI? Myth or reality

[WA Paul]

I spoke with Moore Guitars and asked them about the 2020 594. They told me that they were told that the new guitars are 12-15 months out! To mean that means the 2020 models and the + pickups.
On the other hand Sweetwater said they were starting to get the 2020 guitars in now and that they would be added to their web site.
So who really knows? lol

SW is showing C24s. Both dealers may be correct

 

[HANGAR18]

You might be surprised to know that Stradivari also made guitars. One is still playable and has been recorded. There are you tube videos of it being played.

I've got a Stradivari Custom 24 which I bought from a guy in Venice as part of a weapons deal we were making in a gondola under a bridge (to hide from aerial drone and satellite observation) where the guy didn't have all the money we had agreed to previously (when we spoke to each other using our CIA furnished burner phones) and the guy gave me the Stradivari Custom 24 guitar in order to make up the difference. When I tried to tell the guy to f*** off and that he wasn't going to get his guns, he shot at me with one of the guns which I was in the process of selling him. This act had a surprisingly persuasive effect on my decision making process as I then relented on my position and then happily agreed to his terms and completed the deal. And THAT'S how I got a Stradivari Custom 24.

 

[Bob Hundemer]

I see sweetwater has the custom 24s with S pickups. I suppose those are the + pickups.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Oh yeah, it would be each individual guitar. PRS is serious about this kind of stuff. For example, Shawn explained in one of the Silver Sky threads that they measure the resistance of every pot that goes into the Silver Sky and add in a resistor to make sure that they are all as close to the same as possible. Knowing that resistance in a pot can vary quite a bit. I'd say that's real attention to detail.

Pots (even the good ones) vary more than probably any other electrical component. When I was building pedals, even good pots claimed a 20% variance. I remember at one point, we had a big get together for the other forum I mentioned recently. There was one particular pedal that 6 of us had. We lined them up and found that they could all sound identical, but with as much as a 10:00 to 12:00 setting on the volume control. The tone controls were much closer, but the volume controls were all over the place.

One very good pedal maker told me one time that he bought his pots in bulk, tested them, and then sold over 60% of them on ebay because they were withiin manufacturers spec, but weren't close enough to the value he'd optimized the circuit for.

 

[Mozzi]

I see sweetwater has the custom 24s with S pickups. I suppose those are the + pickups.

There is ONLY the 58/15 LT+ pick-ups - no other '+' pick-ups are currently made and these are only fitted to the SC594. The Custom 24 has 85/15 Pick-ups (NO +) - at least the regular Core Custom 24. 'S' Pick-ups are usually the 'import' line and fitted to the SE and S2 ranges...

 

[Bob Hundemer]

Ok thanks for that information. I didn't know what the "S" pickups were.

 

[jcolmn]

My head hasn’t spun so much since I tried to understand Bill Lawrence’s website and attempted to understand his writings.
http://billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableandSound.htm
http://billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableCalculation.htm
There is plenty more there too.

With that said I was able to buy a set of used PRS Paul’s Guitar SE TCI pickups. I put them in a strat pickguard and wired them to two toggles switches for the splits. I only went that route because I wanted to try them but didn’t want to drill holes in any of my other guitars. By my understanding a lot of the true single coil sound comes from completely removing the second coil from the circuit with the use of one DPDT switch per pickup. I guess I could have replaced the vol and tone with push pull versions but that is a long way to go just to try out pickups. I used 500k pots and the same caps that are in an SE Paul’s guitar and didn’t know better to match every resistor. They sound great in humbucker and single coil mode with very convincing single coil tones in my partscaster.

All this leads me to say that I think this is the latest marketing from PRS to convince everyone they have to buy a new guitar to get this pickup technology....all while using words and complex relationships between parts that normal humans cannot comprehend.

Just my opinion. I am looking to buy a core guitar with these in it so there you go...

 

[dogrocketp]

These will simply sound different than what we are used to. Several years ago, Paul made Narrowfield pickups which won a number of awards. They didn’t succeed commercially, so were withdrawn from the market. There may be a difference between quality and our sonic perception. In the end, we’ll probably need both. There will be less hunting for the sonic unicorn.

 

[Mozzi]

My head hasn’t spun so much since I tried to understand Bill Lawrence’s website and attempted to understand his writings.
http://billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableandSound.htm
http://billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableCalculation.htm
There is plenty more there too.

With that said I was able to buy a set of used PRS Paul’s Guitar SE TCI pickups. I put them in a strat pickguard and wired them to two toggles switches for the splits. I only went that route because I wanted to try them but didn’t want to drill holes in any of my other guitars. By my understanding a lot of the true single coil sound comes from completely removing the second coil from the circuit with the use of one DPDT switch per pickup. I guess I could have replaced the vol and tone with push pull versions but that is a long way to go just to try out pickups. I used 500k pots and the same caps that are in an SE Paul’s guitar and didn’t know better to match every resistor. They sound great in humbucker and single coil mode with very convincing single coil tones in my partscaster.

All this leads me to say that I think this is the latest marketing from PRS to convince everyone they have to buy a new guitar to get this pickup technology....all while using words and complex relationships between parts that normal humans cannot comprehend.

Just my opinion. I am looking to buy a core guitar with these in it so there you go...

Believe it or not, the original Paul's guitar - before it was updated a year ago and saw the SE version introduced, sounded very good in both humbucker and split modes - very little if, any volume drop, great 'single coil' tone and praised for how good it sounded. The 'TCI' pickups are named more after the process and could of been called 'Paul's Pick-ups' to go in his Signature model, like the Tremonti's or the DGT's. The 'S' pickups are certainly regarded as 'good enough' to go into a US made guitar so I am not surprised that taking out a set of TCI 'S' (where TCI is only a name like 85/15, 408, \m/ etc) and connecting them up without marrying them up with the electronics to also get the 'full' TCI process sound good. The same pickups impressed Carlos Santana and wanted them fitted to the Santana SC hat launched at the same time as the Paul's SE guitar - just without the option to split.

PRS have released numerous guitars over the last few years that offer coil splitting/tapping and they have all been very good with minimal, if any volume drop and perhaps the best on the market. Its absolutely NO surprise that any Pup's - regardless of the name or whether they were fitted in a guitar that had or had not been through the TCI process - sounded great when Split.

The purpose of TCI is to improve the consistency of the sound of a guitar so that there isn't a 'big' difference between guitars. A lot of that is down to the fact that despite being made in exactly the same way, electronics do vary. a 500k pot could vary by +/-30k for example and pick-ups don't all have exactly the same output either. Until now, those minor differences wouldn't be taken into consideration - they would come off the production and be fitted into a guitar with the same resistor as every other in the same model. Now though, the assembler can take the next set of pick-ups off the line and then fit the perfect electronics to get the sound they want. Without that, you are still getting a great set of Pick-ups that still sound great when split/tapped like PRS have been making for years before they developed this TCI process. That was born out of the Silver Sky development, making 3 identical Single Coil pickups (as they are all JM635's and the same whether its for the bridge, middle or neck position) that all sound just the way John Mayer wants - somewhere between a 63 and 64 strat and importantly, the same 'sound' so John Mayer can walk into ANY stockist and take a Silver Sky off the wall and have it sound exactly like his own - not just feel but sound too.

Its about tuning the sound to be consistent - whether its split or not. PRS pickups are great as humbuckers and have been one of, if not the best pickup manufacturer with their split/tapped Humbucker sound without the drop in volume that many others have. What you have done with the TCI 'S' Pickups, you could do with the 85/15 'S' (which also can be split) and would have the same result too. The TCI process may help the split coil to be tuned to sound 'better' than without the process and to make the guitars sound much more consistent but that never meant that PRS HB's sounded 'terrible' when split/tapped before. Few, if any, thought the 'revised' Paul's guitar was worth trading in their 'older' Paul's guitar just because of the TCI process - its more a refinement and producing more consistency than a massive jump up. The split coil sounds of older Paul's were still excellent and highly praised by critics.

The technology is being rolled out across all core models as its an extra refinement. Its not 'marketing BS to make you go out and buy a new PRS - its 'evolution' and refinement that PRS have been known for. The Custom 24, whilst still very similar to the guitar that PRS launched with, has been refined and evolved over years and years. The TCI process has been developed from learning and understanding more about Pick-ups and the electronics. PRS can't control the impedance of the cable you have plugged into the guitar, how that changes depending on length for example, but they can make a guitar where all of that can be controlled, can be made more consistent and tuned to sound how they want coming out of the output jack. That doesn't mean that the Pick-ups were 'bad' before and certainly not bad when split/tapped either. Guitars like the 408, 24-08, Special Semi-Hollow and even the 594 - all of which have humbuckers with the option to split/tap individually and with little/no volume loss before PRS developed the TCI process so its absolutely NO surprise that any PRS pick-up, when put in other guitars without the matched electronics from the TCI process, sound great both in full or split modes. The Pick-ups are probably no different to any other pickups when fitted to other guitars without going through the TCI process and I don't expect the 58/15 LT's (for example) that are fitted to the 2020 DC594 to be any different to my 58/15 LT's fitted in my 2016 DC594. The difference is that my 594 had the stock pots/resistors that were fitted to every 594 regardless where as the 2020 594 will have the electronics fitted that are matched to the pick-ups and tuned to sound the way they wanted - that extra attention to detail, extra step in the assembly process. Of course there are other refinements with the 2020 models - like the Nitro finish for example and with the 594, a revised bridge too.

The TCI process is the result of research, development and PRS continuing to look at every aspect and continuously striving to improve. Do you feel you have to buy a new Custom 24 every few years because of some improvements? Whether that's a new Pick-up like the 85/15's that came in a few years ago, a change in Bridge or Tuners, a change from rotary to blade switch, a change in the heel length or whatever new tweak, improvement, refinement etc. The Custom 24 has had numerous updates over the 35yrs and the TCI process is just another 'update' from a company that doesn't sit still.

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

I wonder if we'll see other manufacturers apply this process. Could PRS patent it and then license it to others? Would other manufacturers go to the same lengths as PRS to 'perfect' their sound?

 

[AP515]

I wonder if we'll see other manufacturers apply this process. Could PRS patent it and then license it to others? Would other manufacturers go to the same lengths as PRS to 'perfect' their sound?

In the electronics industry we patent circuits all the time, so yes they could probably do it. The downside is it's easy to get around the patent by just tweaking your desired result and saying that is a new circuit.

 

[Figaro]

How do the TCI-S pickups in the SE Paul’s Guitar compare to the Core TCI pickups? They certainly look different. I assume the TCI-S pickups are lower quality, like the other SE components?

 

[shimmilou]

I wouldn't say "lower quality". They are different, the SE being typical humbucker sized pups, compared to the smaller pups in the core. The SE are import pups, but sound fantastic, very much like P90s in humbucker mode, and terrific split sounds too.

 

[Collywobbles]

To tune a pickup they would have to have figured out what constitutes an optimum frequency response graph and then tune the impedance to that response. ... ... If so, then they would need to add resistance, and/or capacitance to achieve some predetermined optimum.

I think it's something like this^^^. I also doubt very much each guitar is individually tuned - think how much work that would be in a busy production environment - wire-up, string, test, un-string, modify the pickups, string, re-test, repeat if the sound's still not quite right.... Also, think of all the variables other than pickups that would stop a guitar from sounding the same and the amount of tuning you might have to do to each guitar if you really did want each one to sound identical. So most likely a set of values for each model's pickups to very consistently achieve a predetermined pickup 'voice' that should then give a similar amplified sound when put in a specific guitar model. Using capacitors and resistors to achive that 'voice' by hitting a predetermined pickup inductance value. I bet Shawn and co are looking at our guesses and going 'hot', 'cold', 'warm', 'what???', etc, etc.

 

[Mozzi]

How do the TCI-S pickups in the SE Paul’s Guitar compare to the Core TCI pickups? They certainly look different. I assume the TCI-S pickups are lower quality, like the other SE components?

There have been a few reviews of the SE Pauls vs the Core version...

Phil McKnight

Premier Guitar

Guitarist

You can check these out as well as check out video/reviews of each independently - as in not directly compared.

Its possible that the materials are lower in quality - for example a lower grade of wire wrapping but its not as if the parts are 'high wear' and not likely to fail/break. The sound is what is important here and whether or not you can replace the SE Pick-ups (which is easier than trying to replace the core due to the size) is down to you. However, replacing the Pick-ups, just because these are made overseas, may not actually be 'better'. You lose the TCI process for a start and may not sound 'better' - especially when split as PRS have worked to minimise, if not eradicate the volume drop.

You also have to take into consideration the big price difference between a Core and an SE but its also important to consider how great the SE guitar is in its price point. It makes more sense to compare the SE with other guitars in that price bracket and hear how great it sounds. At the end of the day, there is a difference between the SE ad Core but you have to decide whether that difference is worth the 4x the cost or not.

 

[Figaro]

Unfortunately, the Core TCI pickup will not fit into the humbucker pickup routes in the SE, in case you happen to find used Core TCI pickups.

 

[Figaro]

There have been a few reviews of the SE Pauls vs the Core version...

Phil McKnight

Premier Guitar

Guitarist

You can check these out as well as check out video/reviews of each independently - as in not directly compared.

Its possible that the materials are lower in quality - for example a lower grade of wire wrapping but its not as if the parts are 'high wear' and not likely to fail/break. The sound is what is important here and whether or not you can replace the SE Pick-ups (which is easier than trying to replace the core due to the size) is down to you. However, replacing the Pick-ups, just because these are made overseas, may not actually be 'better'. You lose the TCI process for a start and may not sound 'better' - especially when split as PRS have worked to minimise, if not eradicate the volume drop.

You also have to take into consideration the big price difference between a Core and an SE but its also important to consider how great the SE guitar is in its price point. It makes more sense to compare the SE with other guitars in that price bracket and hear how great it sounds. At the end of the day, there is a difference between the SE ad Core but you have to decide whether that difference is worth the 4x the cost or not.

Thank you. I’ve heard them in person and the Core TCI pickups definitely sound better. I wonder if the SE’s TCI humbucker is just a current SE humbucker that has the “tuning” applied to the circuit?

 

[Mozzi]

Thank you. I’ve heard them in person and the Core TCI pickups definitely sound better. I wonder if the SE’s TCI humbucker is just a current SE humbucker that has the “tuning” applied to the circuit?

Its difficult to know exactly why there is a difference and could be more than 1 reason. Obviously the Core TCI pick-ups are narrower in design which would likely affect the way the pick-ups sound. The 57/08 Narrowfields sound different to the 57/08 humbuckers despite using the same materials and winds. I would think that the difference in width is the biggest factor in the difference.

I really don't understand what you mean by 'current SE humbucker'. Its not an 85/15 'S' for example but a completely new Humbucker based on the TCI pick-ups built in the US - just not built to the same shape. I fully believe that these are specifically built to resemble the Core TCI pick-ups - just like the 85/15 'S' pick-ups are built to be like the 85/15 core pick-ups or the new 58/15 LT 'S' pick-ups are built to be like the core 58/15 LT's. It is a 'current' SE Humbucker like the other current 'S' pick-ups.

I am sure that if they made a SE 408 (for example), that both Pick-ups would be a regular sized humbucker compared to just the bridge on the Core model. Both SE pick-ups would be based off the Core versions and built to be like those but would still have some 'difference' in sound - not just because of the shape but because of all the other differences in the hardware and construction. Whether they do the TCI process or not, things like the differences in Nut, Bridge, Tuners, Electronics (pots/switches) and even the woods (multi piece body, maple with maple veneer) which has a thinner cap due to the very different carve all have some effect. I don't want to get into the tone wood debate or how much impact things like the Nut or Tuners affect the sound but it all adds up.

As I have said, there is a 'BIG' difference in price between an SE and a Core so the decision should be whether the differences in tone are worth spending that much more on getting a core. I can't answer that for you as that is something you will have to decide. If a Core is out of your price range however, then you need to decide if the Paul's SE is what you want, offers the tone and flexibility of its independent coil splitting you want, offers the best guitar for you at that price. Whether its as good as a guitar that costs 4x more is irrelevant really as I think the SE Paul's is one of the best guitars of its type at the price point. It has one of the best 'split coil' sounds too for the money with little/no volume drop which can't be said for many guitars under $1k.

The TCI 'S' pick-ups were wound for the SE Paul's guitar specifically but Santana wanted them in the Santana SC SE that released at the same time. I don't believe that had the TCI Process applied (I could be wrong of course) and the guitar doesn't offer a Split/tap option but he liked the sound of them in full humbucker and insisted they use them instead of any of the other 'S' pick-ups that PRS SE's had - like the 85/15 'S'. That tells me they are 'different'.

Again, it still seems to me you are confusing the pick-up name with the process. It may have been better to have called them 'Paul's' Pick-up and then the SE version would be the Paul's 'S' pickup which would also be used in the Santana. I don't know exactly what era they are based on but could also have been called 60/17's or 55/17's for example and then the SE versions would be 60/17 'S' or 55/17 'S' and you would not be as confused as you seem to be over this...

 

[Figaro]

Its difficult to know exactly why there is a difference and could be more than 1 reason. Obviously the Core TCI pick-ups are narrower in design which would likely affect the way the pick-ups sound. The 57/08 Narrowfields sound different to the 57/08 humbuckers despite using the same materials and winds. I would think that the difference in width is the biggest factor in the difference.

I really don't understand what you mean by 'current SE humbucker'. Its not an 85/15 'S' for example but a completely new Humbucker based on the TCI pick-ups built in the US - just not built to the same shape. I fully believe that these are specifically built to resemble the Core TCI pick-ups - just like the 85/15 'S' pick-ups are built to be like the 85/15 core pick-ups or the new 58/15 LT 'S' pick-ups are built to be like the core 58/15 LT's. It is a 'current' SE Humbucker like the other current 'S' pick-ups.

I am sure that if they made a SE 408 (for example), that both Pick-ups would be a regular sized humbucker compared to just the bridge on the Core model. Both SE pick-ups would be based off the Core SE versions and built to be like those but would still have some 'difference' in sound - not just because of the shape but because of all the other differences in the hardware and construction. Whether they do the TCI process or not, things like the differences in Nut, Bridge, Tuners, Electronics (pots/switches) and even the woods (multi piece body, maple with maple veneer) which has a thinner cap due to the very different carve all have some effect. I don't want to get into the tone wood debate or how much impact things like the Nut or Tuners affect the sound but it all adds up.

As I have said, there is a 'BIG' difference in price between an SE and a Core so the decision should be whether the differences in tone are worth spending that much more on getting a core. I can't answer that for you as that is something you will have to decide. If a Core is out of your price range however, then you need to decide if the Paul's SE is what you want, offers the tone and flexibility of its independent coil splitting you want, offers the best guitar for you at that price. Whether its as good as a guitar that costs 4x more is irrelevant really as I think the SE Paul's is one of the best guitars of its type at the price point. It has one of the best 'split coil' sounds too for the money with little/no volume drop which can't be said for many guitars under $1k.

The TCI 'S' pick-ups were wound for the SE Paul's guitar specifically but Santana wanted them in the Santana SC SE that released at the same time. I don't believe that had the TCI Process applied (I could be wrong of course) and the guitar doesn't offer a Split/tap option but he liked the sound of them in full humbucker and insisted they use them instead of any of the other 'S' pick-ups that PRS SE's had - like the 85/15 'S'. That tells me they are 'different'.

Again, it still seems to me you are confusing the pick-up name with the process. It may have been better to have called them 'Paul's' Pick-up and then the SE version would be the Paul's 'S' pickup which would also be used in the Santana. I don't know exactly what era they are based on but could also have been called 60/17's or 55/17's for example and then the SE versions would be 60/17 'S' or 55/17 'S' and you would not be as confused as you seem to be over this...

Thank you for the info. I have a Paul’s Guitar SE and love it.

 

[Black Plaid]

Unfortunately, the Core TCI pickup will not fit into the humbucker pickup routes in the SE

Not with that attitude they won't!