Lewguitar
Old Know It All
It doesn't. I theorized the same.
I was wrong.
It does change the single coil tones slightly.
Moves the slug coil of the neck pickup further from the bridge for a slightly deeper tone.
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Reversed neck pickup on 24-08 / 35th Anniversary Cu24?
- Thread starter bglaze
- Start date
I was wrong.
It does change the single coil tones slightly.
Moves the slug coil of the neck pickup further from the bridge for a slightly deeper tone.
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
I don't have a guitar like that so all I can do is read about it.
But I thought from what I've read that instead of eliminating the screw coil entirely and leaving only the slug coil on to achieve Fenderish sounds, that PRS was using a resistor to ground for the screw coil so that some of the sound from the screw coil was still included in the signal we hear.
Looking at those photos though, I see what look like a few extra capacitors in blue. Not resistors.
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Simon Says
Cathode Follower
Not with the 35th anniversary. Here's the schematic of mine - you can clearly see screw coil being isolated in split. I believe Paul's Guitar is done the same way. What's interesting - Core 24-08 with a slide switch and MT pickups is wired very differently
35th Anniversary with 85/15TCI
24-08 with 85/15MT
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
I'll be studying that today! Thanks!Not with the 35th anniversary. Here's the schematic of mine - you can clearly see screw coil being isolated in split. I believe Paul's Guitar is done the same way. What's interesting - Core 24-08 with a slide switch and MT pickups is wired very differently
35th Anniversary with 85/15TCI
24-08 with 85/15MT
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
W
The DGT does use resistors for a partial split though...right? Like this:
I'm always looking for clear tones from my humbuckers for my rhythm playing. Unless you're playing instrumentals, it's what you do for 90% of a song: play chords, rhythm and accompaniment.
I like the sound of using just the two slug coils from each pickup in parallel that I can get in the #2 setting of the rotating switch of my '95 CU22.
The #4 setting (if the bridge humbucker is the #5 setting) is the two screw coils of each pickup in parallel and it's weaker and, as PRS describes it, "warmer".
Not with the 35th anniversary. Here's the schematic of mine - you can clearly see screw coil being isolated in split. I believe Paul's Guitar is done the same way. What's interesting - Core 24-08 with a slide switch and MT pickups is wired very differently
35th Anniversary with 85/15TCI
24-08 with 85/15MT
The DGT does use resistors for a partial split though...right? Like this:
I'm always looking for clear tones from my humbuckers for my rhythm playing. Unless you're playing instrumentals, it's what you do for 90% of a song: play chords, rhythm and accompaniment.
I like the sound of using just the two slug coils from each pickup in parallel that I can get in the #2 setting of the rotating switch of my '95 CU22.
The #4 setting (if the bridge humbucker is the #5 setting) is the two screw coils of each pickup in parallel and it's weaker and, as PRS describes it, "warmer".
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Simon Says
Cathode Follower
Yeah, DGT uses resistor for a partial split. PRS uses few different ways how to do the splits. Both methods (partial resistor and small value caps from hot to ground) have some advantages. I have combined both in my standard so I have partial split on resistor, so no volume drop, and the cap - more pleasant single coil tone
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
I don't own any new PRS guitars except for the Silver Sky so all these ways of splitting humbuckers are new to me!
I have two CE22's and one CU22 from the 90's with Dragons and the rotary switch that combines a single coil from each humbucker in either series or parallel. I like the slug coils in series for the sound of a middle humbucker, and slug coils in parallel for Stratty sounds. The sound of combining the screw coils of each pickup doesn't do it for me, but it's there as #4, right before the bridge humbucker, on the rotary switch.
But I have no guitars with these new methods you posted of splitting humbuckers.
I have a couple of SE Singlecuts I use for experimenting. I was most interested in the DGT method of splitting because that sounded best to me in the Premier Guitar Youtube videos of the DGT.
Thanks!
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garrett
...
There are three different approaches at play.
1. Resistor wiring (DGT, S2 models, pre-TCI 594, etc.): A portion of the signal from the cancelled coil is allowed to pass through, based on the value (higher resistor value = less cancellation). You can do this with any split/tapped humbucker to whichever coil you want. Gives the single coil sound a fuller, louder tone. PRS core pickups with this approach will usually be single-conductor with a tap wire between bobbins. S2 pickups generally 4-conductor. With this approach the shunted coil has a resistor in series on the way to ground.
2. Multi-Tap (408, Paul's Guitar, Brent Mason, anything with "MT" in the pickup name, etc.): A specific pickup concept where the slug bobbin has extra winds on it. The pickup has a start and finish, plus two tap wires: one between the bobbins and one partway through the slug bobbin. With stock PRS wiring, it's always tapped at one point or the other. That's what makes the switch wiring look interesting on these.
3. TCI: I know the least about, but from what I've seen the pickups themselves are 4-conductor and PRS wire them with a true split coil wiring. The party trick here and the reason for the triple-pole switches is that when split, the hot signal runs through a capacitor in series to tune the sound.
PRS was not the first to do any of the three, but the are definitely the first company to fully take advantage of these long-time, under-the-radar hacks.
1. Resistor wiring (DGT, S2 models, pre-TCI 594, etc.): A portion of the signal from the cancelled coil is allowed to pass through, based on the value (higher resistor value = less cancellation). You can do this with any split/tapped humbucker to whichever coil you want. Gives the single coil sound a fuller, louder tone. PRS core pickups with this approach will usually be single-conductor with a tap wire between bobbins. S2 pickups generally 4-conductor. With this approach the shunted coil has a resistor in series on the way to ground.
2. Multi-Tap (408, Paul's Guitar, Brent Mason, anything with "MT" in the pickup name, etc.): A specific pickup concept where the slug bobbin has extra winds on it. The pickup has a start and finish, plus two tap wires: one between the bobbins and one partway through the slug bobbin. With stock PRS wiring, it's always tapped at one point or the other. That's what makes the switch wiring look interesting on these.
3. TCI: I know the least about, but from what I've seen the pickups themselves are 4-conductor and PRS wire them with a true split coil wiring. The party trick here and the reason for the triple-pole switches is that when split, the hot signal runs through a capacitor in series to tune the sound.
PRS was not the first to do any of the three, but the are definitely the first company to fully take advantage of these long-time, under-the-radar hacks.
Simon Says
Cathode Follower
Not in series. From hot to ground, look up the schematic I posted above. It's like a fixed tone control; the cap takes a fraction of the high end and sends it to ground
garrett
...
Dah! Yes, parallel, not series. I've done that on a Jerry Donahue-inspired Tele before, with a higher value cap to shift the peak closer to a humbucker.
The cap in series hack is for the reverse effect, to de-mud pickups.
Sweet, I think I fully understand TCI now. Thanks!
Simon Says
Cathode Follower
I think there's more to TCI than just that. I have shared my theory on this forum many times before.
My theory is - the TCI is not a single pickup alone but a combination of two pickups in a split.
Its all started with Silver Sky pickups. If you look at their spec, they all have the same resistance. I bet they have close inductance and capacidance too. So now: in positions two and four, if the pickups are as close with spec to each other, the quack will be more prominent. If the spec of two pickups in parallel are further apart, the quack effect will be diminished. I believe that the TCI idea is just that, but applied to humbuckers.
Of course, this is just a theory, but historically, it would make sense
garrett
...
You may be on to something. Hasn't PRS said that other pickups are now "TCI" aside from the specialty models that use the mini-toggles? If so, I'd love to know how they differ.
I wish PRS weren't so opaque about the inner workings of their instruments. Their approach is innovative and should be celebrated, but instead it's all shrouded in mystery.
Simon Says
Cathode Follower
Yeah. There are a lot of exciting and unique things making PRS pickups. All new ones have shielded coils; some have a unique approach to waxing—there are a lot of unusual techniques and thinking going into their pickups. I can't blame them for holding this back.
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
Like the epoxy goop that Bill Finnigan used to cover the circuit board of the original Klon.
I get it though.
I thought TCI pickups included some new discovery PRS made about tuning the pickups for a specific tone in some such way. Being able to make an exact 57 PAF or 58 PAF or 59 PAF again. I thought it involved something discovered using a computer.
Paul says the copper wire is now made to the exact gauge wire as used in different years in the 50's. And made with the same dyes and on old machines that made pickup wire in the 50's.
Supposedly they've discovered the perfect thickness of enamel coating on the copper wire used to make the coil and that thickness changed over the Golden Years of Gibson.
Of course Seymour Duncan, Tom Holmes and others have been claiming the same thing for years. They're all pickup scientists.
Simon Says
Cathode Follower
I think it's less magic and more math and physics. I won't defend my theory with a knife fight; I can't prove it without taking my pickups off my guitar and measuring. But if I were a pickup maker taking split coils tone seriously / building my brand around this; this is precisely how I would put my sets together
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
Right now, it would seem that PRS is doing the best job of splitting humbuckers into usable single coils of any guitar maker I'm aware of.
Actual splits, partial splits using resistors and capacitors, combining one coil from one pickup with one coil from another, etc.
The pickup splitting on the new DGT sounds really good.
That's always been Paul's thing. Combining Strats and Les Pauls, Les Paul Juniors and Les Paul Specials into one guitar and getting the sounds of both.
The 5 position rotator switch on the 90's CE22 and CE24 give some nice stratty sounds and a whole new middle humbucker sound from just two humbuckers.
garrett
...
Disclaimer: This post is pure speculation for fun. I'm just a hack on the internet who likes to nerd out on guitar stuff sometimes.
TCI is not a new discovery, but a fresh approach to existing technology, which has always been a hallmark of PRS.
Anyone with the right equipment can measure the inductance and resonant peak of pickups. What I think PRS has done here is put that to practical use. They measured values of their desired pickups to get baselines and then adjusted their pickup formulas to hit the targets they wanted.
For example, take a perfect sounding '63 Strat pickup or '57 PAF or whatever, measure it scientifically and then match the attributes in your own pickup. This is in contrast to the voodoo magic that usually goes into these things, like aged magnets, fiber bobbins, wooden spacers, etc.
It makes sense to me that there's more in play for the humbucker split tones. My speculation is this: They got their ideal single coil sound with the 635JM pickup (even though they've continued tweaking that pickup, but anyway). They wind the coil that will be active in split mode to hit an inductance number close enough to the 635JM and then they balance out the humbucker tone with the other coil. Then, when split they tweaked the resonant peak with the cap to take out the stereotypical icepick sound of split coils and shift the resonance closer to the 635JM.
garrett
...
I'm totally with you. I've avoided the whole topic of TCI for a few years. I haven't had the motivation to buy and then do the necessary reverse engineering.
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