Please help: PRS 58/15 LT vs high-end single coils?
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MWebster
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In my profile pic there is a Special Semi-Hollow with the 58/15LT set with a narrowfield in the middle position. I've actually come to like the humbucker set a lot, they are low output, but they have that PRS sound and what you'd expect a vintage les paul pickup to sound like. With the right amp tweaking I've coaxed juicy rich single coil tones out of them that were more than satisfying especially if you have a middle pickup in there. In humbucker mode they drive really nicely, you use a little more gain but they are so clear. I've found anyway. I bought the MT set and I dont know if I'll bother installing them.
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
Then do consider the SE Silver Sky. I have two.
I've been seeing them brand new for $800 or less.
Don't let the low price fool you: the SE Silver Sky plays and sounds better than guitars selling for twice its price.
The vibrato can be set to float and it stays in tune, and the pickups, controls and parts are excellent.
bluesnik
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That's my opinion too. I'm pretty happy with them. What's more: I mostly play my SE Paul's Guitar in single mode.
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
Especially when it comes to vintage out put humbuckers in the 8K range or less, the best "single coil" sounds are achieved either by putting the two coils in parallel or by doing a partial split so that one coil is full on and the other coil is only partially switched off.
The partial split is achieved by using a resistor to ground instead of a wire to ground to split the coils.
There are youtube videos describing how to do this and the guys also talk about it a lot on the Seymour Duncan Forum.
You use the same mini-switch or push/pull pot you'd use to split the coils, but use a resistor to ground instead of a wire to ground.
Do a google or youtube search for "partial coil split guitar pickups", or visit the Duncan Forum and do a search there.
www.fralinpickups.com
The partial split is achieved by using a resistor to ground instead of a wire to ground to split the coils.
There are youtube videos describing how to do this and the guys also talk about it a lot on the Seymour Duncan Forum.
You use the same mini-switch or push/pull pot you'd use to split the coils, but use a resistor to ground instead of a wire to ground.
Do a google or youtube search for "partial coil split guitar pickups", or visit the Duncan Forum and do a search there.
5 Powerful Ways To Coil Split Your Humbucker
Today, we're discussing some exciting and unique ways to approach Coil Splitting with Humbuckers!
www.fralinpickups.com
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Sybo
Jim
Oh my………..Yep! I've got a Swamp Ash MEV and it is KILLER in all positions for me!!! The splits are VERY good and believable!
RickP
Established 1960, Still Not Dead
You can get closer, and in some scenarios have a single-coilish sound good enough to fool yourself a bit, but what Serg said has always been true. Like using a piezo to get an acoustic tone, it’s a good workaround and, for many, it’s close enough. But ultimately no humbucker sounds “just like” a Strat pickup in the same position. The absolute closest I’ve heard in the in-between positions are Narrowfields… likely because they’re also physically closest to single coil size.
You’re doing the right thing in getting a real single coil guitar if you want 100% of that tone.
Mozzi
https://imgur.com/user/BAMozzy/posts
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As I have said elsewhere, A Strat sounds like a Strat because its a Strat - not just because it has Single Coils. Single Coils, whether that's a 'strat' style, P90, Lipstick, Split HB or whatever other Pups use a 'Single' Coil of wire as a 'pick-up' can and do sound 'different' depending on the Guitar and where it falls under the string. The same 'Single Coil' will sound different in a Neck, Middle or Bridge position, in a completely differently built guitar (All Mahogany, set neck, shorter scale and fixed bridge for example) to a Strat or Tele - yet it's still the 'same' Single Coil pickup.
Whilst a Strat may well have 'Single Coil' tones, not ALL single coil tones sound exactly like a Strat. Therefore, expecting 'every' Single Coil, regardless of whether its a 'true' split HB, a P90 or SC built like a P90 (I have seen SC's built using a 'bar' magnet like a P90 or HB instead of magnetic poles but look like a traditional fender Single coil from above), Lipsticks etc to sound like a strat seems ridiculous to me - especially when the guitars they are mounted in are very different. They are offering 'Single' Coil tones yet they are all 'different' flavours but ALL do the 'same' thing, enable you to get the music out to the Audience.
I am not going to say that ANY of my guitars that offer a 'Split' neck HB for example sounds as good to me as a Silver Sky neck Single Coil when compared 'clean/dry' but as I don't 'expect' it to because these are 'different' guitars, I know some 'compromise' is to be expected. That doesn't mean I can't use my Special, with its 58/15 MT's Split either with or without the NF to play the SAME notes, get my Music out and for the Audience to 'enjoy' the sound of my Guitar in a Mix with Drums, Bass, Rhythm and/or Vocals too.
Maybe if I was actually in a Studio recording a Song, it would be more 'beneficial' to swap to a Strat if that's the 'SC' sound I was desperately trying to recreate exactly, Although maybe the Special or 509 could be similar enough to not matter in the mix and/or different enough to have its own tone - maybe a bit thicker, warmer or less harsh for example. Subtle differences also don't really come through in a Mix when you have all the other 'frequencies' from the rest of the instruments playing too, less when you use Pedals, dial in your Amp specifically for your guitar, the Cab/Mic etc - then the differences are 'negligible'.
All I can say from my own experience and usage, I really do think that PRS has the 'best' Split/tapped HB's that are very usable in their own right. They may not sound like the 'best' Tele, the 'Best' Strat you could play, but they are not 'tele/strat' guitars, they are 'able' to offer something 'similar', albeit a 'different' flavour, to add more versatility to a 'Single' instrument. If you really think you can get a single guitar built to sound EXACTLY like a Les Paul (24.75", fixed bridge, thick Mahogany body and mahogany neck, double HB guitar) and a Strat (thinner Ash/Alder body with plastic pickguard mounted SC's, trem bridge, maple neck, 25.5" scale), I really think you are going to be out of luck. Something has to be 'compromised' - that Split HB may not sound exactly like the best Strat, but it still sounds 'great' in its 'own' way when 'used' in a mix - not compared 'dry/clean' to a Strat (if that is the 'tone' you expected) or compared to a richer, fuller HB 'dry' as that always makes SC's seem thin and lacking something too. Play it over some backing tracks and switch between HB and Split - sometimes that Split sounds 'very' Stratty and/or bigger and wider because its not competing with other frequencies of the band, not muddy.
To be Honest, I don't care if its not 'exactly' strat like, I care more about whether or not I can 'use' that tone to make music with and 'work' within the context of a Song which includes Bass, Rhythm, Drums and/or Vocalist). I know my Audience won't care whether I am playing a Special, a Strat or a Les Paul, won't care about my 'individual' tone - unless its too 'harsh' or distracting from the rest of the band etc. They just care that you are playing the right notes in tune, in time etc.
For some, having these 'extra' tones in their tool is more for 'creating' their OWN tone for their OWN sound and Music, not trying to be a copy of Jimi or Slash. For others, its a 'small' sacrifice to have more versatility from a single instrument - enabling them to take fewer guitars out reducing costs, reducing weight etc. Taking my Special and a Helix Floor for example is much easier than taking 3 or 4 different guitars (Strat, Tele, LP) and a couple of Tube Amps, Cabs, Mics, a Pedal board and whatever else you need to have the wide range of tones you need to perform your gig. A modeller doesn't sound exactly like the Tube Amp its modelling if compared side by side out of context, but at a live show or in a Mix, it can be much more difficult to tell these apart - I see Split HB's being 'similar' in that regard - in that you can quite easily hear a difference in Side by Sides, but when all dialled in and played in a 'mix', those differences tend to disappear.
I think anyone that 'expects' a completely different guitar in the way its built, the materials used etc to sound 'EXACTLY' like another instrument is almost certainly going to be disappointed. Does that make it worse, I don't think so - I think it may add a 'different' flavour to your Tonal palette that could also be 'close' enough to use if you wanted too.
Both my 594's sound 'different' - one being a 2016 Solid body, the other being a 2019 Hollowbody with Nitro finish and TCI'd Pups - but also close enough to be interchangeable, Both sound very different from my 2 Cu24's, one a regular with 85/15's, the other a Maple necked Floyd with \m/ pups - distinctly different but again could use either. All 4 are Double HB guitars and yet we don't expect all double HB guitars to sound exactly like a Les Paul. I also have a HBii, Special and 509 - all have HB's, all different flavours but also expands my tonal palette. I don't have 1 'double' Humbucker guitar to have the 'best' Les Paul, a SSS guitar to have the 'best' Strat tones, etc. I wouldn't want to paint with just Red, Yellow and Blue despite being able to mix/blend colours, but have a palette of different shades of Red, Yellow, Blue, orange, green, brown etc. If I don't have a Crimson Red for example, maybe I can use a different red and get a similar result.
All that matters to me is whether or not I can use a 'feature' and my 509, Special and 594's - the guitars I own where I can choose to use a split or Full HB sound - all have very usable SC tones that on their own do sound a bit weak compared to the HB or not quite as 'pleasing' as a Strat Single Coil, but still perfectly usable and offer a LOT of versatility in a single instrument. My 509 is perhaps the 'closest' to a Strat, but I do prefer the sound of the 58/15 MT's when Split over a 'single' 509 pickup and in a mix, the majority couldn't tell what guitar you were playing, wouldn't care either as long as the 'music' overall sounds great - which is more about the notes you play, the melody/chords, everyone being in time and in tune etc - not 'your' individual isolated guitar tone - which 'could' sound awful but together with the rest, be magical - Crazy Train...
Whilst a Strat may well have 'Single Coil' tones, not ALL single coil tones sound exactly like a Strat. Therefore, expecting 'every' Single Coil, regardless of whether its a 'true' split HB, a P90 or SC built like a P90 (I have seen SC's built using a 'bar' magnet like a P90 or HB instead of magnetic poles but look like a traditional fender Single coil from above), Lipsticks etc to sound like a strat seems ridiculous to me - especially when the guitars they are mounted in are very different. They are offering 'Single' Coil tones yet they are all 'different' flavours but ALL do the 'same' thing, enable you to get the music out to the Audience.
I am not going to say that ANY of my guitars that offer a 'Split' neck HB for example sounds as good to me as a Silver Sky neck Single Coil when compared 'clean/dry' but as I don't 'expect' it to because these are 'different' guitars, I know some 'compromise' is to be expected. That doesn't mean I can't use my Special, with its 58/15 MT's Split either with or without the NF to play the SAME notes, get my Music out and for the Audience to 'enjoy' the sound of my Guitar in a Mix with Drums, Bass, Rhythm and/or Vocals too.
Maybe if I was actually in a Studio recording a Song, it would be more 'beneficial' to swap to a Strat if that's the 'SC' sound I was desperately trying to recreate exactly, Although maybe the Special or 509 could be similar enough to not matter in the mix and/or different enough to have its own tone - maybe a bit thicker, warmer or less harsh for example. Subtle differences also don't really come through in a Mix when you have all the other 'frequencies' from the rest of the instruments playing too, less when you use Pedals, dial in your Amp specifically for your guitar, the Cab/Mic etc - then the differences are 'negligible'.
All I can say from my own experience and usage, I really do think that PRS has the 'best' Split/tapped HB's that are very usable in their own right. They may not sound like the 'best' Tele, the 'Best' Strat you could play, but they are not 'tele/strat' guitars, they are 'able' to offer something 'similar', albeit a 'different' flavour, to add more versatility to a 'Single' instrument. If you really think you can get a single guitar built to sound EXACTLY like a Les Paul (24.75", fixed bridge, thick Mahogany body and mahogany neck, double HB guitar) and a Strat (thinner Ash/Alder body with plastic pickguard mounted SC's, trem bridge, maple neck, 25.5" scale), I really think you are going to be out of luck. Something has to be 'compromised' - that Split HB may not sound exactly like the best Strat, but it still sounds 'great' in its 'own' way when 'used' in a mix - not compared 'dry/clean' to a Strat (if that is the 'tone' you expected) or compared to a richer, fuller HB 'dry' as that always makes SC's seem thin and lacking something too. Play it over some backing tracks and switch between HB and Split - sometimes that Split sounds 'very' Stratty and/or bigger and wider because its not competing with other frequencies of the band, not muddy.
To be Honest, I don't care if its not 'exactly' strat like, I care more about whether or not I can 'use' that tone to make music with and 'work' within the context of a Song which includes Bass, Rhythm, Drums and/or Vocalist). I know my Audience won't care whether I am playing a Special, a Strat or a Les Paul, won't care about my 'individual' tone - unless its too 'harsh' or distracting from the rest of the band etc. They just care that you are playing the right notes in tune, in time etc.
For some, having these 'extra' tones in their tool is more for 'creating' their OWN tone for their OWN sound and Music, not trying to be a copy of Jimi or Slash. For others, its a 'small' sacrifice to have more versatility from a single instrument - enabling them to take fewer guitars out reducing costs, reducing weight etc. Taking my Special and a Helix Floor for example is much easier than taking 3 or 4 different guitars (Strat, Tele, LP) and a couple of Tube Amps, Cabs, Mics, a Pedal board and whatever else you need to have the wide range of tones you need to perform your gig. A modeller doesn't sound exactly like the Tube Amp its modelling if compared side by side out of context, but at a live show or in a Mix, it can be much more difficult to tell these apart - I see Split HB's being 'similar' in that regard - in that you can quite easily hear a difference in Side by Sides, but when all dialled in and played in a 'mix', those differences tend to disappear.
I think anyone that 'expects' a completely different guitar in the way its built, the materials used etc to sound 'EXACTLY' like another instrument is almost certainly going to be disappointed. Does that make it worse, I don't think so - I think it may add a 'different' flavour to your Tonal palette that could also be 'close' enough to use if you wanted too.
Both my 594's sound 'different' - one being a 2016 Solid body, the other being a 2019 Hollowbody with Nitro finish and TCI'd Pups - but also close enough to be interchangeable, Both sound very different from my 2 Cu24's, one a regular with 85/15's, the other a Maple necked Floyd with \m/ pups - distinctly different but again could use either. All 4 are Double HB guitars and yet we don't expect all double HB guitars to sound exactly like a Les Paul. I also have a HBii, Special and 509 - all have HB's, all different flavours but also expands my tonal palette. I don't have 1 'double' Humbucker guitar to have the 'best' Les Paul, a SSS guitar to have the 'best' Strat tones, etc. I wouldn't want to paint with just Red, Yellow and Blue despite being able to mix/blend colours, but have a palette of different shades of Red, Yellow, Blue, orange, green, brown etc. If I don't have a Crimson Red for example, maybe I can use a different red and get a similar result.
All that matters to me is whether or not I can use a 'feature' and my 509, Special and 594's - the guitars I own where I can choose to use a split or Full HB sound - all have very usable SC tones that on their own do sound a bit weak compared to the HB or not quite as 'pleasing' as a Strat Single Coil, but still perfectly usable and offer a LOT of versatility in a single instrument. My 509 is perhaps the 'closest' to a Strat, but I do prefer the sound of the 58/15 MT's when Split over a 'single' 509 pickup and in a mix, the majority couldn't tell what guitar you were playing, wouldn't care either as long as the 'music' overall sounds great - which is more about the notes you play, the melody/chords, everyone being in time and in tune etc - not 'your' individual isolated guitar tone - which 'could' sound awful but together with the rest, be magical - Crazy Train...
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Lewguitar
Old Know It All
I also think PRS does the strat-sound from a humbucker better than anything else I've heard. Although the EVH pickups on my Ernie Ball Axis sounded great split too.
PRS doesn't use the same method on every guitar though.
The Fiore puts the two coils in parallel to achieve a single coil like sound. This is a cool way to get that sound because it's stronger sounding than turning one coil off and the pickup remains humcancelling.
Seems that the DGT does a partial coil split so one coil remains fully on and the other remains partially on.
I like what PRS and also Ernie Ball/Musicman are doing with coil splits these days.
Seymour Duncan includes a diagram with his humbucking pickups for using a 3 position mini-switch that allows for stock series/parallel/or coil split. Maybe a resistor could be added to that switch for partial coil split sound. That diagram is also on the Duncan website.
PRS doesn't use the same method on every guitar though.
The Fiore puts the two coils in parallel to achieve a single coil like sound. This is a cool way to get that sound because it's stronger sounding than turning one coil off and the pickup remains humcancelling.
Seems that the DGT does a partial coil split so one coil remains fully on and the other remains partially on.
I like what PRS and also Ernie Ball/Musicman are doing with coil splits these days.
Seymour Duncan includes a diagram with his humbucking pickups for using a 3 position mini-switch that allows for stock series/parallel/or coil split. Maybe a resistor could be added to that switch for partial coil split sound. That diagram is also on the Duncan website.
JasonE
New Member
In all honesty, John Suhr is doing it as good or better than PRS does. I was quite surprised how the 'in between" sounds came out of my Modern with two humbuckers in it with a 5 way blade switch. I also have a P22 trem that has the 5 way blade switch on it that does a pretty good job. Both guitars do it without losing a lot of volume as well.
Lewguitar
Old Know It All
Yeah, won't be long before everybody's doing it right.
Switching the coils from a series connection to parallel retains volume too. Seymour Duncan's been recommending that for a long time.
There are better ways to split humbuckers than to just flip a switch that turns one coil completely off.
Electrical engineers have known about this stuff since the 1920's.
But guitar makers are just getting hip to it.
BTW, John Suhr made the pickups in Jeff Beck's favorite Strats. Not Fender!
Mozzi
https://imgur.com/user/BAMozzy/posts
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I do think that it offers more versatility above anything else from a single instrument so it then comes down to execution. Just 'splitting' HB's doesn't mean that they are very useful in a 'live' setting for example as the drop off in Volume could be an issue.
I don't think it matters whether a HB is a true Split, tapped or however its configured, its a 'different' tone for us as Musicians to 'use' to shape the sound we are putting out for our audience to hear those notes, melodies, chords etc. An Electric traditionally had just '3' different options - until people found a way to get 5 from their strat, then 5-ways became popular. Now you can get '8' from just a double HB and so you are not so 'limited' and can 'tweak' the tone mid-song, mid 'performance' just as easily as switching from the 'Neck' tone to a brighter Bridge tone for example, now you can also go from a thick, full HB tone to a thinner SC tone (even if its not exactly like a Strat, its still a different and useful option) which maybe just what the 'song' needs - like you know it 'needs' to go to the bridge. Its just a 'different' flavour of tone that guitar can give you expanding your tonal palette. Its no different from buying different guitars to get 'different' flavours of Tone, whether HB, P90's, SC's, Lipsticks, Filtertrons, Blades/rails etc etc.
It makes sense to me that companies will get better and better at making more versatile pickups. I don't think its all that different from say an Active pick-up offering multiple different 'flavours' from a single pick-up or a guitar like the 513 which offered '2' HB flavours and a SC flavour. You may prefer the 'Heavy' HB on its own in a comparison, hate the SC thinking it sounds thin, weak etc compared to the HB, but in a Mix sounds the biggest and best. Its that option you as the musician has. It may not sound exactly like a Strat, but may still sound excellent in the Song and still enable your audience to enjoy your music...
In general, I am likely to prefer a Tapped HB over a 'true' split as, Like PRS himself, I am not a fan of 'Hum' and 'generally' prefer a HB over a SC sound (there are 'exceptions' of course). Tapping does give you a bit more control over the sound too as you can change the percentage you 'tap' off so you get the 'different' sound you want when splitting. DG said he has been 'tweaking' the exact point of tapping his DGT's for years to get it 'perfect' for 'him' and 'his' needs and to be honest, I think they sound awesome in their own right and extremely usable too.
