NAD: DG 30 head!

I'm not a high gain player either, but I am looking for Grissom tones at home volumes (this is what I call "reasonably loud"... far louder than bedroom volume, actually still probably too loud if someone is trying to watch tv upstairs, but it's not cranked up to rehearsal/gig levels.) But Grissom's level of dirt is also my "base tone"... so that's why I'm asking about the MV. I like getting most of my dirt from the amp.

The official PRS demo of the DG30 (with Dave and Paul), sounds ok... Dave said the MV was "at like 2" (and Paul was already complaining :rolleyes:), and it's a nice but pretty muddy tone at that point... with my Hot Cat's "K-master" I can actually get a very similar tone, at "home" volumes, it doesn't need to be up at gig volume. That fact that people feel the need to use something like the OX make me think this isn't a great MV?

I disagree with Pete that the amp needs an attenuator, but I also don't feel that the 30W HXDA needs one like he does (I explain why below). And he's using the OX with all of his amps, as I understand it, so take that into consideration.

I don't use an attenuator with any of my amps. I often run them at near-gig volume when I record (this includes my Mesas as well), but let's face it, I'm well paid to get the very best tone out of my amps. For just screwing around and practicing, they still sound very good at what we might agree to call "home volume".

If you're getting the tone you like with your current amp, you don't need a different amp, so this discussion is probably academic. I've owned the Hot Cat, and it's a fantastic amp, however fact remains that its tone is very different from the DG30!

The Hot Cat is much more in the Vox family of tone, despite having EL34s. Incidentally, my Hot Cat was truly the loudest amp I've ever owned, including a several 100 Watt Fenders and Mesas (one of which I have now), but it sounded glorious at high volume - and goodness, it needed high volume. In that respect, it is very AC30.

The DG30 is perhaps more in the Tweed family of tones, and it breaks up at a lower volume than the Hot Cat.

But you have to put in a bit of time to work with it, and learn how to set it up, because the DG30's mode of master volume operation is different from most amps. Why?

The DG has a pre-phase inverter MV design. Most MVs are post-phase inverter. This matters!

With a pre-PI MV, the master volume affects the gain of the preamp, it doesn't just make the sound less loud.

That makes it a little harder to dial in, because what you expect is that you set the gain control level you want, like on most amps, and simply lower the master and you're in business. But that's not how to get the best result with this amp!! I think you need to put in the time with the amp, and that the amp rewards that with great tones.

Most folks who've tried a DG30 didn't have a clue how to set it up and use it (and I didn't at first, either). So many of them walked away scratching their heads. It took me a few months to really understand the amp, and how to use it with each of my guitars. Pete hasn't had that much time with his, and for that reason, the attenuator he uses might be an excellent solution.

I'll never part with my DG30. I has richly rewarded the time I've put in with it, and I've used it on an awful lot of my paying projects, with wonderful comments from clients about how much they like the sound.

Still, I will never, ever claim any of my amps will work for anyone else. I'll state the case for why I like them, and not go beyond that.
 
I disagree with Pete that the amp needs an attenuator, but I also don't feel that the 30W HXDA needs one like he does (I explain why below). And he's using the OX with all of his amps, as I understand it, so take that into consideration.

I don't use an attenuator with any of my amps. I often run them at near-gig volume when I record (this includes my Mesas as well), but let's face it, I'm well paid to get the very best tone out of my amps. For just screwing around and practicing, they still sound very good at what we might agree to call "home volume".

If you're getting the tone you like with your current amp, you don't need a different amp, so this discussion is probably academic. I've owned the Hot Cat, and it's a fantastic amp, however fact remains that its tone is very different from the DG30!

The Hot Cat is much more in the Vox family of tone, despite having EL34s. Incidentally, my Hot Cat was truly the loudest amp I've ever owned, including a several 100 Watt Fenders and Mesas (one of which I have now), but it sounded glorious at high volume - and goodness, it needed high volume. In that respect, it is very AC30.

The DG30 is perhaps more in the Tweed family of tones, and it breaks up at a lower volume than the Hot Cat.

But you have to put in a bit of time to work with it, and learn how to set it up, because the DG30's mode of master volume operation is different from most amps. Why?

The DG has a pre-phase inverter MV design. Most MVs are post-phase inverter. This matters!

With a pre-PI MV, the master volume affects the gain of the preamp, it doesn't just make the sound less loud.

That makes it a little harder to dial in, because what you expect is that you set the gain control level you want, like on most amps, and simply lower the master and you're in business. But that's not how to get the best result with this amp!! I think you need to put in the time with the amp, and that the amp rewards that with great tones.

Most folks who've tried a DG30 didn't have a clue how to set it up and use it (and I didn't at first, either). So many of them walked away scratching their heads. It took me a few months to really understand the amp, and how to use it with each of my guitars. Pete hasn't had that much time with his, and for that reason, the attenuator he uses might be an excellent solution.

I'll never part with my DG30. I has richly rewarded the time I've put in with it, and I've used it on an awful lot of my paying projects, with wonderful comments from clients about how much they like the sound.

Still, I will never, ever claim any of my amps will work for anyone else. I'll state the case for why I like them, and not go beyond that.

It's great that you are familiar with the Hot Cat!!! Now I can maybe pick your brain a little more ;)

Yes, I love the Hot Cat... I have the new USA Players series, which was revoiced to be a little more Marshally. My swapping the BC speaker for a C-rex (my personal favorite speaker) helps take out some of that Vox "zing" LOL. And It's hard to believe the DG30 breaks up earlier... at least if we are taking about the Hot Cat's LEAD channel, which is the whole purpose of buying a Hot Cat. It breaks up RIGHT NOW. It actually has a little too much gain for me, and I am going to be doing some tube swaps to see about lowering the gain on the lead channel.

(I am not a fan of running the clean channel loud; some people love it on this amp, but for me it's too compressed running it that way, so I use the clean channel for actual clean tones, and the lead channel for my base rhythm tone (similar to Grissom's tone)

Regarding MVs.... I have no idea how the Bad Cat K-Master works, but it's different enough that it's apparently patent pending... it works well.... below about 9:00, I consider it mostly useless, might as well play a SS amp or modeler, but even at 9:05 it really starts to open up, and above 12:00 the power tube distortion starts coming into play (according to BC owner John, I've never had it up that high).

While I am currently loving the HC, I'm still interested in it for a few reasons:
-I like experiencing new gear... I'm not so much about accumulating it, but I like going through it, in the adventure of finding stuff that I really "marry" to.
-unless tube swaps work on the HC lead channel, it's not perfect for me... it doesn't clean up very well with the guitar volume knob. That's the reason for trying to get some lower-gain tubes in there.
-Grissom is one of my all-time faves (altho I don't own a DGT yet!), so I'd really like to experience what he does, playing through the DG30... and the cab design intrigues me. Maybe it'll be the amp for me, maybe it won't... but there's only one way to find out...

OH- and the only other amp I still want to buy/try to see how it compares/if it'll work for me: a Lonestar Classic.
 
Regarding MVs.... I have no idea how the Bad Cat K-Master works, but it's different enough that it's apparently patent pending...

He did a bit of a novel trick on that, and apparently it works very well.
 
It's great that you are familiar with the Hot Cat!!! Now I can maybe pick your brain a little more ;)

Yes, I love the Hot Cat... I have the new USA Players series, which was revoiced to be a little more Marshally. My swapping the BC speaker for a C-rex (my personal favorite speaker) helps take out some of that Vox "zing" LOL. And It's hard to believe the DG30 breaks up earlier... at least if we are taking about the Hot Cat's LEAD channel, which is the whole purpose of buying a Hot Cat. It breaks up RIGHT NOW. It actually has a little too much gain for me, and I am going to be doing some tube swaps to see about lowering the gain on the lead channel.

(I am not a fan of running the clean channel loud; some people love it on this amp, but for me it's too compressed running it that way, so I use the clean channel for actual clean tones, and the lead channel for my base rhythm tone (similar to Grissom's tone)

Regarding MVs.... I have no idea how the Bad Cat K-Master works, but it's different enough that it's apparently patent pending... it works well.... below about 9:00, I consider it mostly useless, might as well play a SS amp or modeler, but even at 9:05 it really starts to open up, and above 12:00 the power tube distortion starts coming into play (according to BC owner John, I've never had it up that high).

While I am currently loving the HC, I'm still interested in it for a few reasons:
-I like experiencing new gear... I'm not so much about accumulating it, but I like going through it, in the adventure of finding stuff that I really "marry" to.
-unless tube swaps work on the HC lead channel, it's not perfect for me... it doesn't clean up very well with the guitar volume knob. That's the reason for trying to get some lower-gain tubes in there.
-Grissom is one of my all-time faves (altho I don't own a DGT yet!), so I'd really like to experience what he does, playing through the DG30... and the cab design intrigues me. Maybe it'll be the amp for me, maybe it won't... but there's only one way to find out...

OH- and the only other amp I still want to buy/try to see how it compares/if it'll work for me: a Lonestar Classic.

Well, I have both the Lone Star Classic and the DG30, so we probably have a lot in common re: what we're curious to try.

If you decide to get a DG30 or try one, I'll be more than happy to share my settings for what I hope is good tone at reasonable volume; but of course, you may not think my tone is so great! If you get one, let's PM to discuss. Meanwhile, I've shared this before but here's some stuff I did to demo the 594 Soapbar and 594 Humbucker models, using the DG30.

I also have some tips re: the Lone Star 100.
 
Well, I have both the Lone Star Classic and the DG30, so we probably have a lot in common re: what we're curious to try.

If you decide to get a DG30 or try one, I'll be more than happy to share my settings for what I hope is good tone at reasonable volume; but of course, you may not think my tone is so great! If you get one, let's PM to discuss. Meanwhile, I've shared this before but here's some stuff I did to demo the 594 Soapbar and 594 Humbucker models, using the DG30.

I also have some tips re: the Lone Star 100.

Were you posting a link or something???
 
Oh my goodness, I'm a doofus! Your'e right, I forgot which track title went with which amp.

Here's the correct link (I hope 3rd try is the charm):

https://soundcloud.com/lschefman/messy-20

Sounds good! Just curious, as to how much gain the DG30 has, do you recall whereabouts the gain control was? I know the DG30 isn't a high gain amp, just wondering if you've got it wound up near the top of the gain range, or...? See, with my Hot Cat, on the lead channel, to get the same level of gain in that clip, I've only got to put the gain n about 10:30, it's got ALOT of gain (that I will never use)
 
Sounds good! Just curious, as to how much gain the DG30 has, do you recall whereabouts the gain control was? I know the DG30 isn't a high gain amp, just wondering if you've got it wound up near the top of the gain range, or...? See, with my Hot Cat, on the lead channel, to get the same level of gain in that clip, I've only got to put the gain n about 10:30, it's got ALOT of gain (that I will never use)

The gain was somewhere near noon; it's been awhile so can't give you an exact figure, but I usually don't put it past 12:30 or so. But of course, dial markings are fairly meaningless, since it's all about the taper of the pot.

The Hot Cat's pot may simply have a different taper, or the various caps and so on may have different values. There isn't necessarily a 1:1 relationship between the level settings.

Also, as I mentioned, I used a pedal of some kind in that clip as a clean boost. Thing is, I can't remember which pedal, it was recorded over a year ago or more. At the time, I used an Xotic EP, an Xotic BB, or an OCD, all with the gain way down as clean boosts (not at the same time, of course). And I didn't raise the level of the boost to drive the amp harder, I just wanted some coloration.

I should mention that when I had the Hot Cat, I almost never used the gain channel. I just turned up the clean channel.

As I said, the two amps are truly apples and oranges.
 
Last edited:
I disagree with Pete that the amp needs an attenuator, but I also don't feel that the 30W HXDA needs one like he does (I explain why below). And he's using the OX with all of his amps, as I understand it, so take that into consideration.

I don't use an attenuator with any of my amps. I often run them at near-gig volume when I record (this includes my Mesas as well), but let's face it, I'm well paid to get the very best tone out of my amps. For just screwing around and practicing, they still sound very good at what we might agree to call "home volume".

If you're getting the tone you like with your current amp, you don't need a different amp, so this discussion is probably academic. I've owned the Hot Cat, and it's a fantastic amp, however fact remains that its tone is very different from the DG30!

The Hot Cat is much more in the Vox family of tone, despite having EL34s. Incidentally, my Hot Cat was truly the loudest amp I've ever owned, including a several 100 Watt Fenders and Mesas (one of which I have now), but it sounded glorious at high volume - and goodness, it needed high volume. In that respect, it is very AC30.

The DG30 is perhaps more in the Tweed family of tones, and it breaks up at a lower volume than the Hot Cat.

But you have to put in a bit of time to work with it, and learn how to set it up, because the DG30's mode of master volume operation is different from most amps. Why?

The DG has a pre-phase inverter MV design. Most MVs are post-phase inverter. This matters!

With a pre-PI MV, the master volume affects the gain of the preamp, it doesn't just make the sound less loud.

That makes it a little harder to dial in, because what you expect is that you set the gain control level you want, like on most amps, and simply lower the master and you're in business. But that's not how to get the best result with this amp!! I think you need to put in the time with the amp, and that the amp rewards that with great tones.

Most folks who've tried a DG30 didn't have a clue how to set it up and use it (and I didn't at first, either). So many of them walked away scratching their heads. It took me a few months to really understand the amp, and how to use it with each of my guitars. Pete hasn't had that much time with his, and for that reason, the attenuator he uses might be an excellent solution.

I'll never part with my DG30. I has richly rewarded the time I've put in with it, and I've used it on an awful lot of my paying projects, with wonderful comments from clients about how much they like the sound.

Still, I will never, ever claim any of my amps will work for anyone else. I'll state the case for why I like them, and not go beyond that.
Didn’t know about the MV design
On the DG30 and makes sense. Although I really like it in bedroom volume, it was just amazing in gigging volume. I am not a high gain guy, and I dial and find a very pleasant volume combining the boost, bright switch, gain and MV. Simply amazing. Just wish I could use at this volume more often
 
The DG has a pre-phase inverter MV design. Most MVs are post-phase inverter. This matters!

With a pre-PI MV, the master volume affects the gain of the preamp, it doesn't just make the sound less loud.

A lot of people do not realize that most of the overdriven harmonic content of a power amp resides in the phase inverter. The post phase inverter master volume approach affords a player a way to get most of the characteristics of an overdriven power amp at the cost of not supporting an effects loop.
 
A lot of people do not realize that most of the overdriven harmonic content of a power amp resides in the phase inverter. The post phase inverter master volume approach affords a player a way to get most of the characteristics of an overdriven power amp at the cost of not supporting an effects loop.

Yes, this has always been my understanding, over many years: the PRE-phase inverter MV is the one that has been ubiquitous for many years, and also why a lot of people do not like MV amps.... the POST-phase inverter design (commonly abbreviated PPIMV on guitar forums) is the newer, BETTER, design... because it does NOT alter preamp gain... I remember back when a lot of the boutique builders started going with the PPIMV... and I was surprised to hear that the DG30 is still the older, PRE- design...
 
Yes, this has always been my understanding, over many years: the PRE-phase inverter MV is the one that has been ubiquitous for many years, and also why a lot of people do not like MV amps.... the POST-phase inverter design (commonly abbreviated PPIMV on guitar forums) is the newer, BETTER, design... because it does NOT alter preamp gain... I remember back when a lot of the boutique builders started going with the PPIMV... and I was surprised to hear that the DG30 is still the older, PRE- design...

"BETTER?"

In caps?

With all due respect, that's kind of a load.

Here's the truth, as I see it:

There is no such thing as a "better" amp circuit. The inescapable fact is that different circuit designs achieve different tones. The choice of MV design on the DG30 was a deliberate choice made during the prototyping stage as to what made this amp sound its best to Grissom. I've spoken with the designer, Doug Sewell, about this.

All MV circuits compromise the tone, because preamp tube saturation sounds different from output tube saturation. There's no way around this.

Thus we see attenuators of various designs, direct recording circuits that allow the power tubes to saturate, and modelers.

Also included in the MV conundrum is that adding an MV circuit changes the inherent sound of the amp. Try an amp that allows you to switch out MV or saturation circuits (Mesa's Lone Star is an example I have that does), and you'll hear more clarity and transparency with the MV and additional gain circuitry out.

You'll find amps that sound different from the DG30, but you won't find amps that sound better. That's what matters to me. Not whether some MV design is older, newer, or has bells and whistles the other one doesn't have.*

Incidentally, the HXDA and other PRS designs use the type of MV you think is "BETTER", so it's not a case of not knowing how to design a MV circuit. As I said above, the choice was made to achieve the tone the amp has.

*Interesing side note: "Bells and whistles" became a phrase because in the 1920s during the silent picture era, the big theater organs had sound effects that the organist could control, including bells and whistles kept with the organ pipes in the loft. These could be trigged from the organ console. (Yes, I thought this would be interesting, maybe it's only of interest to me. ;)).
 
Last edited:
Firstly, I put better in caps because it's widely accepted the post-PI MV is a better design, at not changing the gain structure of the amp, only changing the volume. Of course this is all OPINION- ALL of it- and I was not stating an opinion either way. Just that pre- was the old way, and post- is the newer way, and is generally considered better, otherwise it would not be being done.

Secondly, I'm sure there are amps that sound BETTER than the DG30- because again- this is all OPINION. All subjective. I wasn't trying to say any amp sounded better than any other. Opinion. The entire world of guitar gear is subjective. I'm sure the DG30 is great. As are many others.

Not sure why you seem to take offense, or pick up on a challenge or something, in my post- it definitely wasn't meant that way. I was merely talking about the PI topologies of the 2 designs, one being older and one being newer and generally accepted as "better", as MVs go anyway. Pre-PI MVs were no doubt a large reason attenuators were developed, because people weren't crazy about the pre-PI design. Hence, the post-PI design was also developed. And then "power scaling" came along with Suhr. And now Bad Cat has the K-Master, whatever that is.
 
And, IMO, all of this is what leads many to post amp attenuators or load/re-amp devices. Because tampering with the gain stages ANYWHERE in the circuit affects the tone, feel, etc.

I have not tried every non-master amp, every one with pre or post PI masters, or several of the very slick new designs like the K-master. But nothing, including any of these masters, or attenuators or load/re-amp devices can completely capture the tone of a cranked up amp into a cab. Partly because even if say a Power Station was 100% transparent, it’s amp would not be exactly like the amp/speaker interaction of the tube amp. And, once attenuated, you lost the “cranked speaker/cab” part of the tone as well.

So while some are brilliant and work very well at giving you “more” of that tone, there is not way to get it all. And the circle of life is that most people even at gigs can’t crank a non-master 100 watt amp up to it’s sweet spot at 6 on the volume knob. Hence the need for “something” to tame the beast. And thus opens the can of worms of which one is best. And I’m with Les on simply designing from the ground up with your “choice” in mind.

(My Mark V also had the defeatable master, and it was interesting because it was more transparent with it off, but had more gain with it on, due to the additional gain stage introduced when you engaged it, as it was tied to the loop. And as expected many debated which way was “best” and the real answer is “whichever is best FOR YOU.” )
 
Firstly, I put better in caps because it's widely accepted the post-PI MV is a better design, at not changing the gain structure of the amp, only changing the volume. Of course this is all OPINION- ALL of it- and I was not stating an opinion either way. Just that pre- was the old way, and post- is the newer way, and is generally considered better, otherwise it would not be being done.

Secondly, I'm sure there are amps that sound BETTER than the DG30- because again- this is all OPINION. All subjective. I wasn't trying to say any amp sounded better than any other. Opinion. The entire world of guitar gear is subjective. I'm sure the DG30 is great. As are many others.

Not sure why you seem to take offense, or pick up on a challenge or something, in my post- it definitely wasn't meant that way. I was merely talking about the PI topologies of the 2 designs, one being older and one being newer and generally accepted as "better", as MVs go anyway. Pre-PI MVs were no doubt a large reason attenuators were developed, because people weren't crazy about the pre-PI design. Hence, the post-PI design was also developed. And then "power scaling" came along with Suhr. And now Bad Cat has the K-Master, whatever that is.

I don't believe that any amp is "better." There is only "better for the individual." As you agree, everything tone-related is subjective.

I also don't believe that any MV topology is "accepted" as being better. Certainly amp makers do what makes amps easier to dial in when customers are in the store. The MV design I have on my other amps makes that easier, to be sure.

But no, it's not better. I'm not even sure it's newer.

Finally, I'm not angry or hot over this. We're having a conversation, not an argument.
 
No one is disagreeing with you on that, lol.
If you hang at TGP much, or have ever been into DIY and hung out at the amp building forums, you will have read of guys building an amp and deciding to change it from pre PI to post PI in their next build, and it changed things that they didn’t expect.

Recently, one big time boutique builder was discussing this at TGP and said that when they took an older design they loved and went to move the master to post PI, it didn’t sound nearly as good. They said after multiple other changes to the circuit, they got it to sound better in their opinion. But, could never get it exactly like the older version, so they literally were going to offer it both ways.

I’ve played with power scaling and while it can be very cool, it’s definitely different. It immediately makes you understand the VH Brown Sound when you start messing with power scaling. (That’s the magic dust of the K-master as well. It reduces voltage to the PI tube, so as volume goes down, so does the amount of signal it takes to overdrive the PI.).
 
Back
Top