Models...no not those kind!

[Clashcityrocker]

I’m curious; of the 700 amp models in your Kemper, how many do you regularly use?

If you’re like me, you’ve tried a bunch, but there are only a handful you find useful enough to use regularly,

I have about a dozen different software amp packages, each with dozens of modeled amps. Of those many amps, there are four or five of the total number I find useful when I need a scratch pad. The rest are never going to see the light of day, even in a demo.

Having that many is I suppose a cool number to throw around, but of very little use in the real world.

Honestly, I don’t see much point in putzing around, scrolling through model after model to settle on a handful of amp models when I can easily have the 4-5 real amps in my studio (and that’s what I actually do).

YMMV, of course.

I have 3 trillion models but some take light years away to switch them on.

 

[László]

I have 3 trillion models but some take light years away to switch them on.

Heheh. Excellent!

 

[Huggy Love]

 

[Collywobbles]

That would be a bit like me saying I own George Bellows 'Men of the Docks' because I once downloaded a very high quailty digital copy of it made especially for a BBC radio programme reviewing said picture. A serious question for all the digital fans is why are you still using analogue guitars when you could have a digital one like a Variax and get the same sounds? My other thought is Edge's Vox (mentioned in the thread above) is well over 50 years old. Lots of tweed Fenders are now over 60 and still going strong. I wonder where the digital stuff people are buying today will be in 50 years.

 

[Clashcityrocker]

Sometimes I wonder with all the technology we have, why can't we make an analog recorder like a tape machine? Sure you could get a reel to reel recorder or a 4 track cassette but those are really becoming obsolete now days. Make an analog recorder for music that sounds best in analog!!!!

 

[Mozzi]

That would be a bit like me saying I own George Bellows 'Men of the Docks' because I once downloaded a very high quailty digital copy of it made especially for a BBC radio programme reviewing said picture. A serious question for all the digital fans is why are you still using analogue guitars when you could have a digital one like a Variax and get the same sounds? My other thought is Edge's Vox (mentioned in the thread above) is well over 50 years old. Lots of tweed Fenders are now over 60 and still going strong. I wonder where the digital stuff people are buying today will be in 50 years. And a link to National Gallery page on 'Men of the Docks' because it's a great picture. https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/george-bellows-men-of-the-docks

That's a bit like saying why don't we just stick with pre-war (as WW2) technology when it worked for us back then - who needs Digital TV beamed into our rooms in High Definition and colour too instead of the old 14" Black & White CRT technology worked, who needs 5.1, 7.1 or even 5.1.4 Dolby Atmos audio quality when a Single mono speaker still plays sound. Why not go back to the old box cameras, or at the very least, back to the days of film when you had to wait until the film was finished before you could see how many Photo's actually were worth keeping. Why not listen to music on an old wind up gramophone instead of the high quality CD's or at least MP3's so you can have your entire Album collection on a mobile phone - and there is another modern digital device that can be a TV, a hi-fi system, a camera, etc.

In basically every other area of life, the old technology has moved on. The whole reason Valve Amps were built was because Valve was the only Technology of the day and the only reason Valves are still made today is because Guitarists refuse to move forward with the times. Not saying its right or wrong but that is the truth. I doubt Valve amps would have been created had the Electric guitar been invented a few decades later. The musical landscape has changed too - no longer do you need to take an Amp and Cab on stage, don't need to put a Microphone in front either to try and capture your sound at that exact point with that exact microphone - which again can be different if its not 'exactly' placed and not picking up some other background noises. Even if you are using all these valve amps, cabs etc in the studio to record, chances are the audience will be listening to the songs on MP3 or streamed via Spotify.

Whether its actually better to use a valve amp for Audio quality or not, Its a bit like saying a Hi-Fi and Record player is the better sounding audio playback device but you can't take your vinyl anywhere to listen to it and everyone else has their entire collection in their back-pocket, never getting scratched, warped etc. Its not just 1 amp, 1 cab and 1 mic but essentially every amp, cab and mic that you can take to a gig in one relatively small box and set up in no time, go straight to the front of house. Your sound is going to be the 'same' every time - not a bit different because the Mic isn't exactly right or picking up more background noise. You can have a different Amp, Cab etc for every song if you want, even parts of songs. Recorded a Solo on a modded JCM800 but the Rhythm on a Fender Bassman - no problem for a Digital amp. As I have said elsewhere, you can have completely different signal paths, different FX, different positions, different amps, different cabs and mic'ing even different settings - not just for a Song, but for parts of a song too - all with just 1 'stomp' - just like you could in the studio by spending an hour rearranging your pedal board, tweaking the settings for the 'part' you are about to record on a different amp and cab but now just a 'stomp' for your live performance - which is MUCH closer to the song than compromising because you would have to do a tap dance and make do with the one amp/cab you took to the gig - probably the Bassman because at least you can put 'pedals' in front to try and give you that modded JCM800 sound...

I am NOT saying that Digital is 'better' - although in a lot of areas it can be - as in the amount of amps you can effectively own, the versatility, the consistency etc - and whilst sonically, its not exactly the same, it can be close enough, even closer in some cases (ie the live situation where songs/parts were recorded with completely different set-up to the live rig) as well as cheaper, more convenient etc. The losses in Audio may not outweigh the gains in other areas for the musician and the circumstances they are in. If you work in a high end studio with a lot of high end amps. cabs etc to hand then Digital may not outweigh the gains.

You can't apply the same logic to the instrument as you can for making that instrument heard. There are 'digital' instruments like the 'keyboard' that can 'sound' similar to a Piano but not like a 'real' grand piano for example but the instrument is the tool for the musician to create their music and the keyboard offers a lot more creative scope than a Piano. The whole purpose of the instrument is to provide a tool for the musician to express their creativity with and the electric guitar offers a lot more creative option to express themselves with thanks to a plethora of FX pedals that alter the sound before its projected to a listener. The guitar is a tactile instrument and its not about whether the instrument is 'digital' or not, this is about the method for which that instrument is given its voice, the way its projected to the listener - getting the sound to the audience because the Electric guitar itself doesn't have a loud voice. All the amps purpose is to give that Guitar a voice to be heard and invariably, that voice is 'changed' along the way by Pedals, cables etc in between the guitar and the speaker - and I refer to the speaker that the sound reaches the listener from which maybe different from the speaker in the Cab that is mic'd in an iso-booth. Even recorded, it can be EQ'd and altered by FX to fit in with other instruments - changed for the 'audience'. I have heard some famous parts were recorded on a Roland cube for some famous song (I can't remember which and who but I recall hearing about it) because it was there and it gave the instrument the voice it needed for that part.

It can be argued back and forth but the reality is that Digital options are a valid tool nowadays in a musicians toolbox. Whether that's for a small occasional part in a chain or the whole chain, whether that's just for live to make life easier and/or cheaper or just for home use, whether is a practice tool or for recording, whether its for amateur or professional etc. If it helps the musician, for whatever reason, then what's the issue. On the one hand, we say tone is subjective and on the other, only the sound of a valve amp is 'right' regardless? Valve maybe better for some things, some situations but digital can also be the 'best' solution for other times. Its not about picking one side and only one side - its about getting the right tool for the right job for the musician to either create or communicate with. If that is a PRS Archon or a Kemper, a board of analogue pedals or a Axe-FX/Helix, if that's a Private Stock PRS or a Harley Benton - or even a Variax (maybe all of these for different situations, circumstances etc) then so be it. You don't have to be all Analogue or all Digital either but can also mix and match if you want as well...

 

[pac90]

Too many words

 

[László]

Sometimes I wonder with all the technology we have, why can't we make an analog recorder like a tape machine? Sure you could get a reel to reel recorder or a 4 track cassette but those are really becoming obsolete now days. Make an analog recorder for music that sounds best in analog!!!!

You can get a restored and refurbished one from Mara. I think they’re out of Nashville, but they sell through Vintage King also. They’re considerably less expensive than they were new.

Thing is, a fully pro 24 track used to be an $80,000-90,000 investment back in the 80s when that was serious money. To use them, you also need a mixer of comparable quality. Something on that level today is about $75,000 on up to about $400,000.

Folks would rather just open a laptop. I’m not sayin’ they’re right. But clients just don’t often to have the budgets to support that kind of studio these days.

 

[László]

In basically every other area of life, the old technology has moved on.

I enjoyed your rant. It’s sort of the yang to my ying rants against modelers. But you’re missing the point. There’s nothing wrong with old technology, we use very old technology all the time.

One example would be the wheel.

People still use the shovel. They’ve found combs in Neolithic dwellings. I have a knife and also an axe. Not new inventions, right?

I wasn’t around when the razor was invented, but I also wasn’t around when the electric razor was invented; that was when, 1930 or so?

Homes are still built with wood and baked mud bricks - what, is it still 3500 BC? And what about the use of stone and marble? Ancient stuff. Why isn’t everything prefab, metal and plastic?

What’s up with window glass? The Romans invented it before 50 AD. We’re still using it. The Romans invented concrete, too, and not only did they invent it, they invented a type that hardens under water. You can see it at Caesarea and other Roman ports. You can see the 1900 year old concrete dome of the Pantheon in Rome.

So, why build a house out of recycled rubber tires and plastic, if you can build a pretty nice one out of wood, and bricks, and cement, and glass?

We’re using elevators and escalators instead of antigravity devices. I rode a bicycle recently that’s not far off from the ones the Wright Brothers made 120 years ago.

Jet aircraft? Late 1930s it was certainly being developed in England, and perhaps at the same time in Germany.

Hell, the transistor isn’t recent news, and microchips are from when, 50 years ago?

I drove an automobile today. Other than the electronic doodads and other fluffery it has, it is an internal combustion engine vehicle with four wheels that might look like something that Futurama dreamed up in the 50s, but it’s still doing the same job. It’s got a transmission that’s not dissimilar to the transmissions in my grandfather’s car in the 50s. Rubber tires on both. An old-fashioned steering wheel. I’m waiting for the one that steers by mind-meld, but so far, it’s something my granddad would’ve been just fine driving.

When you go into a room and even the nicest hi-fi is playing, are you fooled into thinking there’s an actual band in the room? Do you turn round and round and say, “where’s the band?” I didn’t think so, because your ears can discriminate between a recording of something, and the actual thing being recorded.

Can you tell the difference between a digital TV broadcast and seeing the people on stage when you’re in an actual audience? I’m sure the answer is yes.

If a new type of amplifier came out, and instead of mimicking tubes, it actually did something new and musical to improve the audio, hey, I’d be all about it. But that’s not what’s happening. It’s a device to mimic the old technology, and no more.

If the old technology sounds good enough to mimic, and you have the old technology on hand, what’s the point of mimicking it? Especially since there’s a sonic difference? You’d rather have 1000 less-than-perfect models of tube amplifiers instead of a real tube amplifier that sounds perfectly like it’s supposed to sound? Go for it! But I wouldn’t.

Please find me a Variax that sounds anywhere near as good as my PS acoustic while you’re at it.

 

[pac90]

I'm thinking of going the Kemper or Axe FX route. I'd like to hear some pros and cons. I love amps but I kind of just want some different (good) tones and don't want to spend more money on different amps. I mainly play at home and record. I have a nice setup in the basement and I can play fairly loud without complaints. My wife wears hearing aides and takes them out when she goes to bed. This is good on weekends when I stay up late!

....before we went into the weeds again

I know what you ordered clash, but you can try helix native as a plug in to your daw while you wait, they have a free trial which just needs a novel email address, you can play live/monitor through it for a laugh / creative spark. Maybe make up a song about grumpy ol men & valves

 

[László]

Maybe make up a song about grumpy ol men & valves

 

[Mozzi]

I enjoyed your rant. It’s sort of the yang to my ying rants against modelers. But you’re missing the point. There’s nothing wrong with old technology, we use very old technology all the time.

One example would be the wheel.

People still use the shovel. They’ve found combs in Neolithic dwellings. I have a knife and also an axe. Not new inventions, right?

I wasn’t around when the razor was invented, but I also wasn’t around when the electric razor was invented; that was when, 1930 or so?

Homes are still built with wood and baked mud bricks - what, is it still 3500 BC? And what about the use of stone and marble? Ancient stuff. Why isn’t everything prefab, metal and plastic?

What’s up with window glass? The Romans invented it before 50 AD. We’re still using it. The Romans invented concrete, too, and not only did they invent it, they invented a type that hardens under water. You can see it at Caesarea and other Roman ports. You can see the 1900 year old concrete dome of the Pantheon in Rome.

So, why build a house out of recycled rubber tires and plastic, if you can build a pretty nice one out of wood, and bricks, and cement, and glass?

We’re using elevators and escalators instead of antigravity devices. I rode a bicycle recently that’s not far off from the ones the Wright Brothers made 120 years ago.

Jet aircraft? Late 1930s it was certainly being developed in England, and perhaps at the same time in Germany.

Hell, the transistor isn’t recent news, and microchips are from when, 50 years ago?

I drove an automobile today. Other than the electronic doodads and other fluffery it has, it is an internal combustion engine vehicle with four wheels that might look like something that Futurama dreamed up in the 50s, but it’s still doing the same job. It’s got a transmission that’s not dissimilar to the transmissions in my grandfather’s car in the 50s. Rubber tires on both. An old-fashioned steering wheel. I’m waiting for the one that steers by mind-meld, but so far, it’s something my granddad would’ve been just fine driving.

When you go into a room and even the nicest hi-fi is playing, are you fooled into thinking there’s an actual band in the room? Do you turn round and round and say, “where’s the band?” I didn’t think so, because your ears can discriminate between a recording of something, and the actual thing being recorded.

Can you tell the difference between a digital TV broadcast and seeing the people on stage when you’re in an actual audience? I’m sure the answer is yes.

If a new type of amplifier came out, and instead of mimicking tubes, it actually did something new and musical to improve the audio, hey, I’d be all about it. But that’s not what’s happening. It’s a device to mimic the old technology, and no more.

If the old technology sounds good enough to mimic, and you have the old technology on hand, what’s the point of mimicking it? Especially since there’s a sonic difference? You’d rather have 1000 less-than-perfect models of tube amplifiers instead of a real tube amplifier that sounds perfectly like it’s supposed to sound? Go for it! But I wouldn’t.

Please find me a Variax that sounds anywhere near as good as my PS acoustic while you’re at it.

I am NOT the one missing the point - the person I responded to was the one missing the point.

I have consistently stated that people do NOT have to pick a side, Either go all Digital or be completely analogue, not the one saying that you have to either give up valve amps because you now own a kemper. I have said that 'Digital' is now a viable tool that can slot in alongside a Valve amp and just provide a digital cab and mic set-up. It could replace your entire pedal board too or be used in conjunction with some favourite pedals.

NOT ONCE have I said that you have to pick 'modern technology for the modern day guitarist. My post was a response to the pathetic statement that because viable digital options are available for guitarists to use, then we ought to be playing Variax and not guitars rooted in the 1940's/50's when Valve Amps were also made. Throughout, I have and will continue to state that Digital is a viable option on a guitarists arsenal to create and to make their creation heard just the way they want or the better for the job. If that happens to be the amp/cab/mic stage, then Digital can be a 1 solution to do it all. You could also go the PT15 way and just use a valve amp but still have a digital cab/mic. If its easier, cheaper and more consistent to tiur with just a Kemper, then that is an option and doesn't mean you can't play valve amps at home, in the studio etc.

You don't have be on one side or the other!!! Its a functional and vastly flexible tool for the musician!!

 

[Boogie]

...I wasn’t around when the razor was invented...

That’s debatable.

You don't have be on one side or the other!!!

Absolutely true, but like the society we live in today, this conversation is monopolized by the overtly loud minority. It’s ok to be highly polarized, but the statistics show that the polar opposites represent 10% each and the balance of the moderates are the vast majority. To be heard, that 20% yells louder. That doesn’t make them right, just loud. That also makes it kinda fun to poke bears with sticks.

Les and I are friends that have met in real life and spent face time enough to poke fun at each other. I’m fairly certain he’s happy to let someone enjoy their music as they see fit to pursue it. In the mean time, I’m perfectly ok with letting an old guy go *insert polarized new organization name here* for the sake of idea exchange and pure entertainment.

 

[László]

I am NOT the one missing the point - the person I responded to was the one missing the point.

I have consistently stated that people do NOT have to pick a side, Either go all Digital or be completely analogue, not the one saying that you have to either give up valve amps because you now own a kemper. I have said that 'Digital' is now a viable tool that can slot in alongside a Valve amp and just provide a digital cab and mic set-up. It could replace your entire pedal board too or be used in conjunction with some favourite pedals.

NOT ONCE have I said that you have to pick 'modern technology for the modern day guitarist. My post was a response to the pathetic statement that because viable digital options are available for guitarists to use, then we ought to be playing Variax and not guitars rooted in the 1940's/50's when Valve Amps were also made. Throughout, I have and will continue to state that Digital is a viable option on a guitarists arsenal to create and to make their creation heard just the way they want or the better for the job. If that happens to be the amp/cab/mic stage, then Digital can be a 1 solution to do it all. You could also go the PT15 way and just use a valve amp but still have a digital cab/mic. If its easier, cheaper and more consistent to tiur with just a Kemper, then that is an option and doesn't mean you can't play valve amps at home, in the studio etc.

You don't have be on one side or the other!!! Its a functional and vastly flexible tool for the musician!!

But I like being on one side or the other!

 

[László]

Les and I are friends that have met in real life and spent face time enough to poke fun at each other. I’m fairly certain he’s happy to let someone enjoy their music as they see fit to pursue it. In the mean time, I’m perfectly ok with letting an old guy go *insert polarized new organization name here* for the sake of idea exchange and pure entertainment.

Exactly so!

 

[Mozzi]

I know quite a few people that own a Variax guitar but a guitar is the tactile part of system and there has been progress since the first Electric guitar arrived with development of Pick-ups, electronics etc. Compared to a 58 Les Paul, the 594 is modern with individual coil splits and locking tuners. Compared to guitars 100yrs ago, all Electric guitars are advanced despite having the same 'core' defining characteristics that make it a Guitar and not a cello, a flute or a Piano. I know that may sound obvious but move too far out of the box, you stop it being a guitar. I am sure I have seen a no string electric 'guitar' - I believe it was on the Gadget Show (UK TV series) - that had a touch screen that you 'strummed' but I would argue that's NOT a guitar anymore as a Guitar is a Stringed instrument.

Since the first Electric guitars, there has been numerous different ways of building instruments and materials used as well that could be considered as evolving. Not all were adopted or lasted - a classic example is the Parker Fly - carbon fibre and glued on Stainless Steel frets but still was a 'guitar'. Aristides guitars too are not what you can call a 'traditional' approach to building a guitar but they are still a 'guitar'. Whether a Variax is ultra modern or not, it still conforms to what a 'guitar' is. It still requires a guitarist to make 'music' on it in exactly the same way as playing a vintage electric guitar.

What annoys me though is that it seems you can't like Valve amps AND Digital modellers. Unless you play Valve amps, you are somehow a lesser musician, that same 'stigma' that existed back in the 80's when digital multi-fx units were for kids and/or beginners, not for serious musicians. If you bought a Marshall Valvestate, you were at most an intermediate player because its not ALL valve and if you want to be taken seriously, you need a valve head and Cabs - not a combo because they were for rehearsal or practice and only a Valve stack and a proper pedal board was good enough for a serious gigging musician. Multi-FX was a big NO regardless and the more 'boutique' pedals you owned, the more 'serious' a guitarist you were.

There still is quite a bit of snobbery around and what is and what isn't acceptable for a guitarist to have in their toolbox to give their instrument its voice matters more than whether that instrument sounds great or not. If the audience comes away having loved the quality of the sound they heard, does it matter if it was a 'kemper'. You still see a wall of Marshall stacks on stages, at least from the audiences perspective but its all an illusion because the guitars are going to a Kemper (or equivalent) and straight to front of house and that 'wall' of Marshalls are just empty set decoration.

I couldn't care less if someone sold ALL their pedals, amps etc and just used a Helix for all their FX and sound - its still giving that guitar its voice and the voice that the guitarist is happy with. It makes it a LOT easier to tour - just need their Guitar(s) and Helix and can gig giving the audience a sound that is remarkably similar to an Amp, Cab and Mic with all the FX. The guitarist is still using their instrument in exactly the same way to say the same thing they would if they had a massive pedal board and valve amp, cab with a mic positioned in front and that musician can, with a single stomp, give their instrument a completely different accent that a 'traditional' guitarist would need to spend time swapping their pedal board around, messing with settings, pedal order, maybe even changing the amp, the cab and mic set up. Go from a JCM800 to a Vox AC30, from a 4x12 to a 2x12 etc etc.

If that's what a musician wants, if that suits them and gives their instrument the Voice they want, what difference does it make if that is 'digital'? If that is their entire Live set-up and their audience go away happy with the sound, where is the problem? Does it matter if they use digital options for FX, for Amps, for Cabs and Mics? Is the PT15 only acceptable if its plugged in to a real Cab and not using any of the digital cabs/mics? Does it matter at all? Its
like saying the PRS SE guitars tone isn't good enough because its not a proper PRS and doesn't sound exactly like the US built PRS that its 'modelled' on and only when its heavily distorted can it sound the same. I just see it as a tool that offer many options to a musician to create the soundscape, give their instrument the voice they want or can accept if its purpose was more about cost and ease with touring. Owning a modeller also doesn't mean that you can't own Valve amps or have individual pedals in a loop because you prefer that pedal to the alternatives built in. Its about using the 'best'' tool for the situation and digital is a viable option that musicians can use as and where they want, where they feel it suits them best.

 

[Clashcityrocker]

You can get a restored and refurbished one from Mara. I think they’re out of Nashville, but they sell through Vintage King also. They’re considerably less expensive than they were new.

Thing is, a fully pro 24 track used to be an $80,000-90,000 investment back in the 80s when that was serious money. To use them, you also need a mixer of comparable quality. Something on that level today is about $75,000 on up to about $400,000.

Folks would rather just open a laptop. I’m not sayin’ they’re right. But clients just don’t often to have the budgets to support that kind of studio these days.

I have a Tascam 4 track reel to reel. It worked for a while then died. I need to get it repaired sometime. There is really only one company making reel to reel tapes now so they cost over $20. I've been using Reaper on my laptop but it would be nice to do some analog recording too.

 

[László]

I have a Tascam 4 track reel to reel. It worked for a while then died. I need to get it repaired sometime. There is really only one company making reel to reel tapes now so they cost over $20. I've been using Reaper on my laptop but it would be nice to do some analog recording too.

Those old Tascams were nice machines, but not built to be the utmost in fidelity and stability (i.e., able to handle studio work 24/7 without degradation from wow, flutter, etc).

Still, it’d be fun to do some recording with that, and bounce the tracks to Reaper. Might sound really nice!

I had an early 90s Otari MT-15, a $15K mastering deck, but I couldn’t find a replacement motor for one of the takeup hubs, so I left it at the studio I was consulting for. I don’t think they ever fixed it.

$20 for a tape isn’t much. I used to spend more than that on a 10 1/2 inch reel of Ampex 456 tape in the 90s.

 

[Clashcityrocker]

....before we went into the weeds again

I know what you ordered clash, but you can try helix native as a plug in to your daw while you wait, they have a free trial which just needs a novel email address, you can play live/monitor through it for a laugh / creative spark. Maybe make up a song about grumpy ol men & valves

The Axe FX FM3 is being released right now. I'm on the waiting list so I'm thinking of getting one. The Kemper looks cool though, it's a tough call.

 

[Boogie]

I had an early 90s Otari MT-15, a $15K mastering deck, but I couldn’t find a replacement motor for one of the takeup hubs, so I left it at the studio I was consulting for. I don’t think they ever fixed it.

You mean something similar to this collecting dust in my garage?