Models...no not those kind!

That’s a good question, Les. I haven’t been using very many; maybe 12-15? But I’m the new guy in a band that wants the tones of our guitars to sound like those on the covers, so I’m likely to be using quite a few more. So, let’s assume that I double the number on my playlist settings. It’s still pretty cool and convenient for playing live.

I also think it’s fun to dial through what’s available, but I admit there is a lot of redundancy. The point I was really making about “700” is the price of the Kemper seems reasonable to me based upon what one gets and what it can do.

Ironically, your name did come up while discussing modelers at Sweetwater this weekend. I commented that I understood why Les would prefer tube amps based upon the tones I’ve heard you use for your genre. I think the kind of music one plays determines in part the kind of amp one will be happy with. I understand tube preference with cleaner tones. I tend to play heavier rock songs which I think the Kemper (and Headrush) do well. I’m not going to argue that modelers sound exactly like tubes, but I do think they’ve come a long way, and I’m happy with the tones and convenience and what they offer me.

Once again I put myself out on a limb (and sawed it off) by being so dogmatic!

With my recent back issues causing me a 5 week hiatus from being able to play guitar at all, I’d be in a real pickle if I had to drag a heavy amp to a gig by myself! So for that reason alone, I get it.

Modelers sound their best on heavy tones; heavier tones are inherently more compressed on a tube amp. The differences are much smaller. Can’t argue against that if you prefer the light weight and flexibility of choices a modeler has.
 
I don’t think Tom Morello or the Edge can get by with a single amp unless they have a bunch of other effects to color it.

A bunch of ad work where clients wanted that “Edge” sort of sound led me to read articles and interviews with his tech re: his rig, to try and figure out how to get the sound.

Talk about a purist; he’s so attached to the sound of his 1964 AC30 Top Boost that he’s bought a first-class airplane seat for it for tours on occasion, and if he has to play through a backup AC30, he’s bummed and says he’s not as inspired.

He also travels with a couple of old Tweed Fender combos. The amps are miked up with Shure dynamic mics, an SM58 for the AC30, and SM57s for the others.

He uses a ton of effects, both rackmount and pedals, selected with a sophisticated switching system.

The effects are all run into the front of these amps - none of them has an effects loop. So both the sound of the guitars and the effects are being processed by the tubes and speakers in the amplifiers.
 
It may not excite you as an artist which may not then excite your audience but many top artists are using Digital modellers and their audiences are more than 'happy' with the sound these artists are producing, are leaving excited and thrilled...

As I said in an earlier post or two, modelers do best at heavy tones for various reasons I won’t repeat.

If the artist is happy and inspired, the performance will be good, and the audience will be happy. That’s all that matters, not whether they use tubes or digital.

I’m happiest listening to a very dynamic clean-to-crunch performance, and worse, I can hear the things modelers do and don’t do as a result of mixing hundreds and hundreds of broadcast tracks. I’m far too opinionated to be of much use in the discussion of the whole topic.

So I’ll surrender on that score.

One thing that’s become a big topic among bands on long tours is that the freight cost of dragging a real amp rig around has become a major expense and in some cases can be the difference between profitability and loss.

Depending on the tour and the artist’s rig, bands can add $50,000-100,000 in roadie, freight and cartage cost savings to their bottom line by switching to modelers. For some bands that are huge enough, that doesn’t matter, it’s a drop in the bucket. For other bands, where the bottom line is far less from a tour, it matters a great deal.

If I went on a tour and found out I didn’t make any money because it cost too much to drag the gear around, I’d be pretty bummed.
 
As I said in an earlier post or two, modelers do best at heavy tones for various reasons I won’t repeat.

If the artist is happy and inspired, the performance will be good, and the audience will be happy. That’s all that matters, not whether they use tubes or digital.

I’m happiest listening to a very dynamic clean-to-crunch performance, and worse, I can hear the things modelers do and don’t do as a result of mixing hundreds and hundreds of broadcast tracks. I’m far too opinionated to be of much use in the discussion of the whole topic.

So I’ll surrender on that score.

One thing that’s become a big topic among bands on long tours is that the freight cost of dragging a real amp rig around has become a major expense and in some cases can be the difference between profitability and loss.

Depending on the tour and the artist’s rig, bands can add $50,000-100,000 in roadie, freight and cartage cost savings to their bottom line by switching to modelers. For some bands that are huge enough, that doesn’t matter, it’s a drop in the bucket. For other bands, where the bottom line is far less from a tour, it matters a great deal.

If I went on a tour and found out I didn’t make any money because it cost too much to drag the gear around, I’d be pretty bummed.

I also wasn't criticising but just trying to show that Digital - whether that's for their entire rig (apart from the guitar), just used to replace amps or the bulk of their FX - I know Joe Satriani, Steve Vai and John Petrucci as well as numerous others that also have clean to crunch type sound - not just 'heavy' use Axe-FX, Helix or Kemper on their set-up. The only point I was making is that the Digital aspect is 'good enough' to take out on the road and leave their audiences with no complaints about the sound - they are also using them in the studio too.

Whether they are better than 'real' valve amps or not can be like saying is the SE line 'good enough' compared to the core line PRS guitars. Both you and I may well agree that the quality of the Pick-ups and overall quality does show through in the sound when A/B'd against each other but some may feel that for their budget, an SE does the job and doesn't sound so far off with pedals and distortion.

Its not like it was when I started playing. Multi-FX and especially the 'digital' multi-FX were not good enough for professional touring musicians. They were often the 'beginners' first experience of using FX before moving up to real pedals. It was the same with Solid State amps and even the Valvestate Marshalls were seen as a stepping stone. I remember quite a few people having discussions about these - the Valve guys arguing it wasn't all 'real' valves and others saying its close enough.

In the late 80's, early 90's, if you turned up to audition with a kidney bean, you would get laughed at. Nowadays, its acceptable to use these for whatever reason - whether its for your entire rig because its so cheap (relatively), easy to take on tour and take your sound with you, just for home use because your valve amps are too loud, easy to plug in and use for making your youtube videos, just used for FX on your pedal board and easy to swap patches without having to tap dance, etc etc.

Its a usable tool for musicians. Whether its the 'best', better than a real valve amp and a big pedal board of FX, just 'best' to transport all over the world, just best to plug straight into your PC for doing youtube or just best bang for your buck to have an entire rig in one box and cheaper than buying just a Mesa Boogie head - can be cheaper than some individual pedals. Point is that they are now a viable tool for a 'serious' musician, inc those that wouldn't think twice at dropping $50k+ on some vintage instrument so money isn't an issue. Its the fact that these are viable now and can be for nothing more than messing about with in search of creative inspiration to replacing everything but the guitar.

I still think your opinion matters even if you have a vast wealth of experience and can hear the differences - whether they are 'clear' to everyone or much more subtle that very few may hear. Its still valuable - assuming you have the latest modellers or at least have access to hearing both digital and traditional amps. Your experience is valuable as you can point out where the differences actually are and then others can try to listen out for those. It will give people the information to make a more informed decision on whether the Digital option(s) is good enough for their needs/budget etc or not. I can't see Joe Bonamassa wanting to use modern digital options myself but that suits him and the gear he owns but there are numerous professional musicians that feel they are good enough for what ever purpose they intend to use this tool.
 
Mozzi, not that I want to argue much further but...Steve Vai gear- uses Legacy One tube amps for amplification:


Petrucci uses his Mesas, the Axe FX is used in the effects loop, so presumably it’s for digital effects:

 
Vai gear- uses Legacy One tube amps for amplification:


Petrucci uses his Mesas, the Axe FX is used in the effects loop, so presumably it’s for digital effects:


I know - but the point I have continuously made is that Digital units are being used anywhere in someone rig for whatever reason. They are 'good enough' to replace any part of their rig or the whole rig itself - either for live or home use, whether that is just for amps, just for FX or for both. Digital is now good enough to be used by professional musicians in their toolbox. This is why I mentioned turning up to an audition with a Zoom Kidney instead of a proper pedal board. Most modellers do have FX as well...

Its not just amps, cabs that some modellers are used for but they can be used 'somewhere' in their signal path. These two artists may not be the 'best' examples for using a modeller as their amp/cab but the point I was trying to make is that they are good enough to be used by top professional artists who can probably afford to use separate pedals - I know they do combine these with real pedals too. These are still part of a Professionals rig
 
I know - but the point I have continuously made is that Digital units are being used anywhere in someone rig for whatever reason.

I use digital reverbs and delays quite often in my rig. They sound great on lots of modulation, pitch, reverbs, delays, etc. While I prefer the sound of my tape echo for certain things, I rely heavily on my Eventide H9s, and used an Eventide H3000 d/se rack processor along with a TC electronics M5000 rack processor for years in the ‘90s and early ‘00s.

For me the tube thing is strictly about amplification.
 
Man, I was just cruising YT watching some Kemper vids so I could post some rad clean tones. Came across this guy. Not so much about how the Kemper sounds. I just wonder why I've never heard of him. Give Jeff Beck a run for his money! Tasty playing!

 
haXV2CL.jpg
 
I could live with this guys top 5 list. Check out the Matchless, his favorite.


The Matchless sounds very good in the fundamental part of the note, a bit less so in the harmonic overtones, but it’s a good model.

Two things I notice having owned a Bad Cat and recorded lots of Matchless C-30 and other Matchless amps: It’s more compressed (the real thing has a palpable immediacy/presence if well-recorded), and some of the high frequency overtones (what I call the “crushed glass texture”) aren’t being faithfully reproduced. The texture is a little wrong, which is a problem I associate with digital distortion models.

Take another listen, and you’ll hear it - a gravelly sort of texture, instead of the crushed glass of the real thing. That’s what separates the Matchless C-30 design (and also other Sampson designs) from lots of other Vox-based amps.

The JJ is a C-30 permanently set to the EF86 preamp tube setting, which gives the real thing a glorious texture. That’s what I’m not hearing.

Whether that’s down to his playing style, the model, or whatever microphone the guy was using I can’t say. Could be the mic.

The problem with a YouTube demo like this is that we have no idea what the weak link in the chain is. Could be a fabulous model poorly recorded or demonstrated, or set up in a strange way.
 
Last edited:
clashcityrocker, It would be good if you could try them all yourself to see what floats your boat as I think anyone would be happy with either of them, in that you'd fall for the one you got

Factor in an FRFR speaker too for the whole solution to have different miked speaker IRs
 
Haven’t read the whole thread but the thing to remember about Kemper is that the idea is that it’s modeling the recorded sound, not the sound you hear/feel sitting in the room. I think it does a great job of that. I prefer to hear the sound of standing in front of a tube amp, not my head up against the cabinet. It’s great that things have come as far as they have and sound good.
 
Last edited:
Actually he doesn't anymore. He spoke at SW on Sunday, and he's now using Synergy amps, but still tubes, so your point is valid. He also mentions using Axe Fx.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Steve+VAi's+amp+2019&view=detail&mid=82F09B5A70D8A801062282F09B5A70D8A8010622&FORM=VIRE

So I see!

An interesting solution for a “one thing to carry” amp is the three-channel 15 Watt Suhr PT15; it has a built in load box, like some of the Mesa models, but the trick is that it has built in IRs, so you can go head to a speaker cab, or head to a mixer, or both at once. Carry one real tube amp to a gig, no add-ons, and you’re good to go. Plus pedalboard, if so inclined. And, um, a guitar.

Could be a best-of-both-worlds kind of thing, if it’s any good. I think they’ve just been announced, so I don’t know anything more about it. I saw a video that sounded nice, but who knows what it’s like in person. Maybe PRS will offer something like it down the road, if it’s a hit.
 
Last edited:
Actually he doesn't anymore. He spoke at SW on Sunday, and he's now using Synergy amps, but still tubes, so your point is valid. He also mentions using Axe Fx.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Steve+VAi's+amp+2019&view=detail&mid=82F09B5A70D8A801062282F09B5A70D8A8010622&FORM=VIRE

Its a modular amp so can be using several different 'brands' as a module plugged into the Synergy. I also think he uses the Carvin Legacy at times too depending on the song or even some part of a song - the crunch tone for example. He may still be using an IR Digital Cab and Mic - not saying he is but the point I am making is that Digital options can be used for any part of the rig from some/all FX, Pre amp, Cab, Mic or for the whole rig itself. Digital options can be used for certain songs or even parts of a song.

They can be integrated anywhere in the signal chain and used in conjunction with separate pedals, amps etc so if you want to keep your 'valve amp', you can plug in a load box and use a digital cab and mic - the new PT15 for example doesn't need a Cab plugged in and you can plug headphones in and get the sound of the amp plugged in to a Greenback loaded 2x12 open back cab with a Shure 57 mic for example without actually owning that cab or mic, send that sound to a PA or straight into your DAW.

Digital doesn't have to replace your amp, your FX or your Cab and can be used for any part of your rig - even the whole rig if that's what you want. The choice is with the Player and whilst it may not be 'exactly' the same as the actual valve amp and Cab mic'd up the way you want, it can get 'close enough' for certain application or circumstance. Whether that's to make your gigging life easier and 'cheaper' than taking the valve amp, cab and mic on tour or just to plug into your DAW at home for doing youtube or writing music.

Its just another tool for musicians and at a point where its 'good' enough for professional use. There are examples of many professional musicians using digital modelling devices somewhere in their signal path which may vary depending on situation and need. Its not like they are saying they can't use it because its not good enough for the application they need. It can be a very useful tool where you may want different amps for your clean, crunch and high gain parts on a song with the FX having different settings and/or positions in the path - a simple stomp changing patch instead.

The point I have continuously made though is that they are a great and useable tool for guitarists and its up to the player to decide where and how they wish to use this tool.
 
clashcityrocker, It would be good if you could try them all yourself to see what floats your boat as I think anyone would be happy with either of them, in that you'd fall for the one you got

Factor in an FRFR speaker too for the whole solution to have different miked speaker IRs
Thanks, I'm probably going to go with the Axe FX 3 FM3. I'm already on the waiting list. The Kemper sounds great too from what I hear and you can't go wrong with that. I'd like some different great tones for recording and this is really going to help out my creativity.
 
Thanks, I'm probably going to go with the Axe FX 3 FM3. I'm already on the waiting list. The Kemper sounds great too from what I hear and you can't go wrong with that. I'd like some different great tones for recording and this is really going to help out my creativity.
I got an AX8 from the first shipment in Australia and also got on the FM3 Australian waitlist the day it opened. GAS got the better of me this week and the Axefx3 will be here Monday. I'm sure you'll love the FM3, hopefully the wait isn't too long.
 
The point I have continuously made though is that they are a great and useable tool for guitarists and its up to the player to decide where and how they wish to use this tool.

Certainly deciding what trade-offs matter is up to the player.

For me, the sonic limitations of a modeler disqualify it for serious use, and make it merely a scratchpad for ideas when I don’t want to make loud noises. If one wants to say, hey, a good scratchpad makes it a usable tool, I’m good with that.

I’ll wait on ‘great’ until they make more sonic improvements. I’m splitting hairs, of course, but that’s what I do. ;)

On the other hand, a tube amp’s weight and other limitations may disqualify it for other people. I’m good with that, too.

My concern is that lots of people are saying there’s no sonic difference. Well, there is. Whether that matters to someone else isn’t up to me.
 
These are all good points and I agree with most everything. I guess the volume on my ears in my older age is more irritating to me more than it used to be. Amps with speakers really need to be played at a certain volume. I'm just gonna try a good modeler out and I'm hoping it will save me from ear fatigue. :cool:
 
Back
Top