It's Time To Trust Your Own Senses and Judgment.

In ancient times, the only things people really wanted was "bread, and a cure." Bread to eat in order to live, and a cure for what ailed them.
Only the poor ones!

There is this idea that the ancients were somehow pure and simple. Not true.

Wealthier ancients had "simple tastes," such as...well, how about a taste for gigantic pyramids...and we've seen a ton of luxury items in Egyptian burials that the rich used in their everyday lives, together with funerary items.

In ancient Sumerian culture, regarded as the 'cradle of civilization' - we're talking 5000 BC here - archaeologists found their writings describing business dealings for luxury goods, very fancy musical instruments, gold jewelry, artwork, and in general, evidence of fantastic wealth. Incidentally, the Sumerians played music with at least an 8 note major scale, and often more, we know this from their fired clay cuneiform writings.

There are remains of highly ornately carved and decorated buildings in Göbekli Tepe (part of what is now Turkey), dating from 8000 BC. That's artwork that for whatever reason they created and cared about.

We know the Romans traded in India for spices, imported silk along the Silk Road from China; luxe items from ancient Egypt were found in Knossos in Crete. Imported (or perhaps obtained in raids) luxury goods have shown up in Viking burials. Wine amphorae from Greece and Italy are found all over Europe, and in shipwrecks all over the mediterranean. Frankincense was from Yemen. Olive oil involved a huge trade from North Africa. We still use the Roman style of musical notation. The Romans had a highly upwardly-mobile society, and among the very successful were freed slaves.

The Celts worked fantastic gold and silver pieces that were traded all over Europe. These were status symbols.

They've found ornate swords made in China in burials in Eastern Europe. Persia was a source of luxury goods for trade.

The ancients wanted chariots, litters carried by slaves so they didn't have to walk on the street and step in dung, luxurious villas (go check out the villas they've dug up in Pompeii), gladiator fights, theater, exotic foods, and the list goes on and on. I forgot to mention art. My goodness, sculpture and paintings were everywhere. They had public bathhouses with heated floors, hot and cold pools that any citizen could take advantage of, free, including plebeians.

The Romans had public pay toilets, concrete that set under water, glass windows, multi story apartment buildings, indoor plumbing, and fast food restaurants. All kinds of interesting and modern stuff. Hell, they found the pipes under the Colosseum in Rome that confirm reports by ancient writers that they used to flood its floor to re-create famous sea battles for entertainment.

There's a joke book written in the 3rd or 4th century AD that's now somewhere in a museum in the UK, and the jokes are just like the stuff you'd hear from standup comics on Ed Sullivan's show or late night TV.

The ancients really weren't simpler, wiser or more restrained than we are. They did the same dumb sh!t, and in many cases, they did it to a greater extent than we do.
 
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Trusting your own senses (or, as I usually say, trusting your gut) is how I wound up being a PRS guy. On paper, there’s no real reason for me to choose the brand—none of my particular guitar heroes play PRS. But at one point, I heard the sound of a Standard 24 on YouTube, and I thought, “I like that. It’s like a high definition guitar tone”. Now, I’ve come to appreciate PRS build quality, the 10 inch neck radius and 25 inch scale, the straight string pull at the nut…all those neat innovations. But without trusting my ears initially, I never would have discovered all the great things about PRS guitars,

On a similar note, I tried a Marshall DSL and loved the clean/semi-clean. I like it better than the same tones on my old Fenders or my old Roland JC that I used to play. But that’s not what anyone will tell you a Marshall is good at.

But it took until I was in my 50s to be able to fully disregard reviews and conventional wisdom, on guitars and a lot of things.
 
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Only the poor ones!

There is this idea that the ancients were somehow pure and simple. Not true.

Wealthier ancients had "simple tastes," such as...well, how about a taste for gigantic pyramids...and we've seen a ton of luxury items in Egyptian burials that the rich used in their everyday lives, together with funerary items.

In ancient Sumerian culture, regarded as the 'cradle of civilization' - we're talking 5000 BC here - archaeologists found their writings describing business dealings for luxury goods, very fancy musical instruments, gold jewelry, artwork, and in general, evidence of fantastic wealth. Incidentally, the Sumerians played music with at least an 8 note major scale, and often more, we know this from their fired clay cuneiform writings.

There are remains of highly ornately carved and decorated buildings in Göbekli Tepe (part of what is now Turkey), dating from 8000 BC. That's artwork that for whatever reason they created and cared about.

We know the Romans traded in India for spices, imported silk along the Silk Road from China; luxe items from ancient Egypt were found in Knossos in Crete. Imported (or perhaps obtained in raids) luxury goods have shown up in Viking burials. Wine amphorae from Greece and Italy are found all over Europe, and in shipwrecks all over the mediterranean. Frankincense was from Yemen. Olive oil involved a huge trade from North Africa. We still use the Roman style of musical notation. The Romans had a highly upwardly-mobile society, and among the very successful were freed slaves.

The Celts worked fantastic gold and silver pieces that were traded all over Europe. These were status symbols.

They've found ornate swords made in China in burials in Eastern Europe. Persia was a source of luxury goods for trade.

The ancients wanted chariots, litters carried by slaves so they didn't have to walk on the street and step in dung, luxurious villas (go check out the villas they've dug up in Pompeii), gladiator fights, theater, exotic foods, and the list goes on and on. I forgot to mention art. My goodness, sculpture and paintings were everywhere. They had public bathhouses with heated floors, hot and cold pools that any citizen could take advantage of, free, including plebeians.

The Romans had public pay toilets, concrete that set under water, glass windows, multi story apartment buildings, indoor plumbing, and fast food restaurants. All kinds of interesting and modern stuff. Hell, they found the pipes under the Colosseum in Rome that confirm reports by ancient writers that they used to flood its floor to re-create famous sea battles for entertainment.

There's a joke book written in the 3rd or 4th century AD that's now somewhere in a museum in the UK, and the jokes are just like the stuff you'd hear from standup comics on Ed Sullivan's show or late night TV.

The ancients really weren't simpler, wiser or more restrained than we are. They did the same dumb sh!t, and in many cases, they did it to a greater extent than we do.
Thanks, Les.
What was originally meant was the common people, not the privileged wealthy. The common people asked for bread, and a cure.
 
Only the poor ones!

There is this idea that the ancients were somehow pure and simple. Not true.

Wealthier ancients had "simple tastes," such as...well, how about a taste for gigantic pyramids...and we've seen a ton of luxury items in Egyptian burials that the rich used in their everyday lives, together with funerary items.

In ancient Sumerian culture, regarded as the 'cradle of civilization' - we're talking 5000 BC here - archaeologists found their writings describing business dealings for luxury goods, very fancy musical instruments, gold jewelry, artwork, and in general, evidence of fantastic wealth. Incidentally, the Sumerians played music with at least an 8 note major scale, and often more, we know this from their fired clay cuneiform writings.

There are remains of highly ornately carved and decorated buildings in Göbekli Tepe (part of what is now Turkey), dating from 8000 BC. That's artwork that for whatever reason they created and cared about.

We know the Romans traded in India for spices, imported silk along the Silk Road from China; luxe items from ancient Egypt were found in Knossos in Crete. Imported (or perhaps obtained in raids) luxury goods have shown up in Viking burials. Wine amphorae from Greece and Italy are found all over Europe, and in shipwrecks all over the mediterranean. Frankincense was from Yemen. Olive oil involved a huge trade from North Africa. We still use the Roman style of musical notation. The Romans had a highly upwardly-mobile society, and among the very successful were freed slaves.

The Celts worked fantastic gold and silver pieces that were traded all over Europe. These were status symbols.

They've found ornate swords made in China in burials in Eastern Europe. Persia was a source of luxury goods for trade.

The ancients wanted chariots, litters carried by slaves so they didn't have to walk on the street and step in dung, luxurious villas (go check out the villas they've dug up in Pompeii), gladiator fights, theater, exotic foods, and the list goes on and on. I forgot to mention art. My goodness, sculpture and paintings were everywhere. They had public bathhouses with heated floors, hot and cold pools that any citizen could take advantage of, free, including plebeians.

The Romans had public pay toilets, concrete that set under water, glass windows, multi story apartment buildings, indoor plumbing, and fast food restaurants. All kinds of interesting and modern stuff. Hell, they found the pipes under the Colosseum in Rome that confirm reports by ancient writers that they used to flood its floor to re-create famous sea battles for entertainment.

There's a joke book written in the 3rd or 4th century AD that's now somewhere in a museum in the UK, and the jokes are just like the stuff you'd hear from standup comics on Ed Sullivan's show or late night TV.

The ancients really weren't simpler, wiser or more restrained than we are. They did the same dumb sh!t, and in many cases, they did it to a greater extent than we do.

Yeah, but what have the Romans ever done for us?

 
Yeah, but what have the Romans ever done for us?

TBH, Reub,
The Romans helped establish trade routes throughout Eurasia long before the British Empire did. Though these were mostly overland routes through hazardous regions (many thieves would plunder unsuspecting travelers) the connective cobblestone highways (recall the Appian Way) helped maintain order throughout the Roman Empire until its collapse because of plague and volcanic activity, which plunged the world into sub-normal temperatures. Crops failed, famine ensued, and the marauding barbaric tribes encroaching eventually caused the fall of the Roman Empire.
The Romans were master architects that produced some of the finest buildings of hewn stone, aqueducts, and of course, the Roman Coliseum, which to some degree reflects how much the Roman elite tried to satisfy the appetites of its populous citizens, with gladiatorial games, chariot racing, and weaponized circuses.
Add to that the bathhouses, which unwittingly spread plague more quickly because of unsanitary conditions, and the popular marketplaces where goods brought in from trade routes were bought and sold.
While there were many downsides to the Roman Empire, the freedoms a Roman citizen experienced were ahead of their time. While some emperors were notorious for their hatred of non-Romans, to be granted citizenship in the Roman Empire guaranteed rights of ownership which included land and property. Education was also pursued. To be a shopkeeper meant that your family had food to eat and a place to live.
As the Roman Empire began to fade after about 500AD, warring tribes and nations broke up much of what was leftover from the Roman Empire and began promoting their own tribal interests. From about 700 to 1100AD the Dark Ages of barbaric tribes began to slowly form from the outlying reaches of the Empire...the Nordic, Celtic, and Turk tribes rose to power...
This is where we commonly see instances of Monty Python poking fun at knights of the realm and such...As funny as it is today, MP has many connections to so-called facets of Christianity and the times thereafter where Christians were persecuted.
The draw Les saw was my comment about my carpenter brother helping with my woodworking projects. Little did either of us know that this would include mention of a "chalice" or any such thing. I merely said my brother was a carpenter, not anything related to a "chalice" though I did pick on the thought of "choosing wisely."
 
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Yeah, but what have the Romans ever done for us?

Thanks for that JOKE Alnus! Trust your own senses and judgement, you did good in choosing to post this one ;~)) Then again, I would argue that Monty Python is usually the best answer for any intellectual quandry, plebeian that I am!!!
 
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I also learned that things the internet doesn't like might work for me...and also that I may not get along with some things the internet think are great. I don't think you need to go to the extreme like I did...but you gotta get out there and play on stuff.

Definitely: very few people I've heard demo-ing gear - stuff that I use all the time - sound even vaguely like me when they use it.

As a result, I have to get out there and try stuff out if I want a better idea of its potential. Plus it's way more fun :)
 
Thanks, Les.
What was originally meant was the common people, not the privileged wealthy. The common people asked for bread, and a cure.
Well, you have to define 'common' here. I'd like to impress upon those reading this that there were many gradations in lifestyle in the ancient world that were between 'poor, as in close to starvation' and 'privileged wealthy'.

One of my interests is reading about the ancient world, starting in college, including probably 30 histories of it in the past year or so. I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm fairly knowledgeable, especially about the Roman, Greek and Byzantine eras. I'll define that (for purposes of discussion) as the Early Bronze Age up to the Early Medieval period (the Byzantine Empire was the Eastern Roman Empire and it lasted until 1452, but I'll set the defining line between the late ancient world and the early medieval period as the death of the Emperor Justinian I, so about 565 AD, though one could argue it was closer to 800 AD when Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor in the West.

Either way, those eras and worlds incorporated an awful lot of people.

I'm less well-read regarding Asian and South American cultures, though I've got just enough information to get myself in trouble!

During most of these ancient periods in the west, farmers were rarely living subsistence/brink of starvation lives; that happened during droughts, plagues or other catastrophes, but they weren't the norm.

There were enough of our ancient ancestors living decently enough to thrive that we're here today.

The very poor who lived in cities in the ancient world were more at risk, but that was not the rule. Most people in what we call the ancient era farmed and/or raised cattle. They retained enough of the food they grew and raised to thrive.

Though a minority of common people, there was the comparatively privileged Roman military - a well paid professional force by the standards of the time after the reforms of Gaius Marius (110 BC-ish), who were given land grants after long service and successful campaigns. At the height of the Empire, that would be 33 Legions totaling about a half million soldiers at any given time, plus auxiliaries. Roman soldiers were not supposed to marry during their long term of service, BUT they were allowed common law wives and families, so military encampments had lots of people.

Every city in the UK, for example, whose name ends in "caster" or "chester", such as Lancaster, Leicester, Chester, Bicester, Cirencester, Caister, Colchester, Gloucester, Manchester, Tadcaster, Winchester, etc., was a former Roman military camp, in Latin, Castra. The population stayed on and these camps were large enough to become cities.

German cities like Mainz, Aachen, Speyer, Frankfurt, Cologne and Augsburg were former Roman camps and cities. France and Spain are literally loaded with former Roman camps and the towns that grew up around them. Same with Eastern Europe; in fact the empire went as far as Bactria (now Afghanistan!) and Armenia, as did Alexander the Great's empire.

There is continuity between the ancient and modern worlds that's kinda surprising until you think about it - continuity in human existence makes sense.

Consider that in the modern world, we have the third largest military, at about 1.4 million people, and the population of the ancient world was way lower. Now imagine our soldiers being given enough land to farm upon discharge. So this was pretty important stuff, and lots of people served over the 600 years following the Marian reforms. Millions lived on former Roman soldiers' landholdings and farms, even in the ancient world.

Their heirs lived largely what we'd compare to middle class farmer's lives, and/or joined the military themselves. There were also Roman allies who supplied "alia" or "auxiliary" soldiers who were well paid for the time, and granted citizenship and land. Many of the Legions' descendants live in what is today Romania - hence the name - a country whose language is today the closest Romance language to Latin, that was part of what the Romans called Illyria. They went there because they were awarded free land, but they also got free land in parts of Italy and all over the Roman Empire.

The Roman military also had the most sophisticated medical system in the history of the Western world until the days following the US Civil War! I've attended lectures on this by one of the medical history professors at the U of Mich Medical School and it's pretty fascinating stuff.

All people in territories controlled by Rome were granted full citizenship in the early 3rd century AD, and that gave them certain rights, privileges, and additional earning potential.

There were plenty of skilled crafts class people in cities, which is why they offered a modicum of opportunity and were somewhat akin to what we'd today call lower-middle class. They weren't starving. The poor in Rome itself got free bread.

But you didn't want to be a slave. That was not a good thing. However, a great many plebeian families, and especially military families in Ancient Rome, owned slaves. That was expensive - they had to be fed, housed, and clothed or you'd lose your investment - so these plebeian families were actually pretty well off compared to the truly poor ones; well off enough to buy them, feed extra mouths and provide clothing and shelter.

I want to be double clear here: Slavery was horrible stuff. The only point I'm making is that you had to be fairly well off in order to hold slaves, and there were plenty of regular, 'common' people who were slaveholders in the ancient world, including farmers.

There were also lots of freed slaves in the Roman and Greek worlds. There's still a strange looking structure shaped like a bakery from Ancient Rome right by the walls of the city, that was the tomb of a freed slave who became rich on his craft, enough to build an imposing structure, and this kind of success was not as uncommon as you might imagine, though the wealthier Romans looked down their noses at these nouveau riche.

But heck, in my area we have two owners of Detroit sports teams (one a former owner) who became millionaires on pizza, so there's your modern analog, The ancient world wasn't all that crazy-different.

In many ways, the ancient world has been mythologized as this terrifying place where you were either practically a slave, a slave, or ridiculously rich, and that simply isn't true. It's more a product of literature than history,

Regular ancient people in farming areas didn't live much different than American pioneers, with their small landholdings; many lived better. Each would have recognized the other's lifestyles as similar to their own except for clothing and firearms.

Until the late 19th century, ancient and modern cities both stank and were filthy, except Ancient Rome and Constantinople had much better plumbing systems, and sewage was run through the Cloaca Maxima, which is STILL in use in Rome; Constantinople had sophisticated water cisterns that are still there and still working (it's now Istanbul).

In modern times, there were plenty of homeless people living in 'workhouses' without homes until very recently, and then there was debtor's prison, again, abolished pretty recently. We had slavery in the modern era. There were tenements in Ancient Rome that many of our grandparents and great-grandparents would have been able to relate to in modern cities, except the Roman ones were only 3-5 stories tall.

But there weren't breadlines unless there was a national catastrophe in either era, or in modern times, "panics" and "great depressions".
 
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What I already know appears to be falling out of one of my ears......... giving me any more will likely make matters worse.

Curse you, László, with your informative and erudite contributions to this forum!
 
Incidentally, the Sumerians played music with at least an 8 note major scale, and often more, we know this from their fired clay cuneiform writings.
And simple examples of financial futures and options contracts have been found on clay tablets from Mesopotamia dating to 1750 BC.
 
What I already know appears to be falling out of one of my ears......... giving me any more will likely make matters worse.

Curse you, László, with your informative and erudite contributions to this forum!
I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning, but I can easily remember arcane historical facts I've read. It's weird, truly weird.

I had a high school history teacher who'd catch me doodling in class, and challenge me to repeat what he just said in a lecture. I could do it word for word. One day he said, "You have a sponge for a brain."

I'm not sure if that was meant to be complimentary! ;)
 
“I only said this piece of fish was good enough for Jehovah!”
Ancient Judeans did not pronounce the name Jehovah (or as the supreme being was called in earlier times, Yaweh). They thought the name was too holy to be uttered by mere humans, that it was akin to blasphemy to do so.

They referred to the supreme being as "Adonai", meaning, "My Lord." When the religious texts are read, despite that it says Jehovah, or Yaweh on the printed page, they read it aloud as 'Adonai', and that's still the drill.

So, there's a counterfactual in that reference; the word 'Jehovah' would not have been uttered in Judea. I realize it's a movie reference, and was funny, but you know me. I must always correct the record, even if it's fictional!! :rolleyes:
 
The ancients really weren't simpler, wiser or more restrained than we are. They did the same dumb sh!t, and in many cases, they did it to a greater extent than we do.
I tend to agree. Times change, but people don't seem to.

Maybe it is because you can pass on knowledge, but not life experience. So no one gets their sh!t completely together until they are nearly dead and by then it is too late. ;)
 
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