Best Sounding Rig In The History of YOUR World?

[László]

One thing I didn't get into that plays a role here...

A typical Celestion 12" guitar speaker will put out around 100 decibels at ONE watt using a 1KHz sine wave. You can get very loud indeed with a ONE watt amp. So why the extra power?

The answer is that the waveforms that come out of your guitar, playing a chord, or even a note, are far more complex than a 1KHz sine wave, the impedance of the speaker varies with frequency, your playing dynamics come into play, and there are lots and lots of other factors that affect what the amp needs to put out to drive the speaker.

People who are into hi fi know that if they have a 200 watt power amplifier driving their speakers, they'll get a cleaner, more powerful sound during complex peak passages, all things being equal, than if they have a 100 watt power amplifier at the same volume levels. This doesn't mean they have to play their system any louder than they would if they ran 100 watts. It just means there's additional headroom.

The powered monitors in my studio (Event Opals) each have a built-in 270 watt amplifier for the woofer, and a 50 watt amplifier for the tweeter. That doesn't mean I run them one decibel louder than I did my last pair of Genelec monitors with 90 watts built into the speaker for each driver. The speakers are about the same size, by the way. I don't run them louder at all, and in fact, I check the output levels with a decibel meter to make sure I'm monitoring at OSHA-safe levels.

However, they sound clearer and have more detail, and one reason is that they have more headroom. I don't have to run them louder to have the benefit of the additional wattage.

This is the same with a guitar amp, as far as I'm concerned. I don't necessarily have to run them louder to hear what the additional wattage does.

This isn't to say that a low power amplifier can't be a very cool thing indeed. We all know that Clapton cut Layla with a Tweed Champ, and the Beano album with an 18 Watt Marshall. We all know that Page cut "Dazed and Confused" with what most folks presume to have been a Supro Model 24 with 18 watts (Page himself isn't sure which model he used and no one seems to have 100% info on it).

But Page has also stated in interviews that he mostly used his famous 100 Watt Marshalls or Hiwatts in the studio, and it's known that he used a 100 or 200 Watt Rickenbacker Transonic solid state amp on "Heartbreaker." So...there are a lot of myths about how often he actually went with the low-power stuff, no doubt some of them conjured up by Page himself to protect his secret sauce!

The point of this little excursion is simply to say that there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and some of the info "everyone knows" isn't necessarily true.

 

[László]

.My "go to" amp has been a different variation of Mesa for a long while......The long out of print Blue Angel.)

I had a Blue Angel head and matching cab at one time! I think it's a great amp for home or studio use, 30-35 Watts, sounds cool, control it from your guitar. Live, I found it didn't have enough to cut through onstage - I couldn't hear it in a band context. And I was not in a loud band. The players were all pros who could control their dynamics.

However, a buddy of mine has been bugging me to buy his 1x12 BA combo. I might do it at some point.

 

[django49]

^^^

I must be playing in different situations......I rarely have turned it above 10 o'clock playing live (admittedly with the Ethos as a "booster"). And even then I am riding the volume control (esp on such as "Still Got The Blues", where I want to feel the sound as well as hear it).

 

[László]

^^^

I must be playing in different situations......I rarely have turned it above 10 o'clock playing live (admittedly with the Ethos as a "booster"). And even then I am riding the volume control (esp on such as "Still Got The Blues", where I want to feel the sound as well as hear it).

Strange. I had mine maxed out on the Simul-link setting, and literally couldn't hear it onstage. But there was also an acoustic guitarist/lead singer, a keyboard player, a bass player, and another guitar player in this band, plus drums. So it was a pretty dense stage mix.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

My "go to" amp has been a different variation of Mesa for a long while......The long out of print Blue Angel. Quite unlike most every other Mesa....Sweetness of a small Fender, bite of a small Brit, excellent when using both power sections at once (6v6 and EL84). Admittedly not a lot of "clean headroom"...

Sounds interesting, I've never heard of an amp mixing output power tubes. Was the intention to give the guitarist a choice of flavors (EL84 or 6V6 family of tubes)? Or was it something else?

 

[django49]

The easiest way to answer is with the original words from the Mesa folks. (IMO, they do a pretty good job of "hyping" their products!)

In theory (and I think in practice) the strengths of each tube type improve the "weaknesses" in tone of the other. IIRC, there are some more recent amps that do something similar, with the ability to blend the balance between the 2 tube types. I did try that with an Egnater head, but was unable to achieve as rich a tone as with the BA.

http://mesaboogie.com/support/out-of-production/blue-angel.html

Diff from the typical Boogie in that there is not a master volume., channel switching, etc, Simple, But a lush reverb. Fat/Bright switch----I prefer the former.

As to the volume issue, one possible thing. The amp has a "mojo module" of electronics that was "gooped up" Howard Dumble style to, seemingly, protect their "secret sauce". All coated in epoxy or something. Problem is, if it goes bad, it is hard to repair, though schematics are available IF you look hard enough. On one of mine (I like them so much I got ANOTHER 4 x 10 when one popped up locally---I have owned 6 BAs in total) that circuit went bad. The tech messed with it for a long while before concluding a "work around" was a better solution. It DID change the tone and volume. As the tech said, set it with your EARS, not your EYES! So I DID have to set the volume higher (noon vs 10:00) and set the EQ differently. But I like the tone just as much as the "stock" version and the volume is still more than adequate......I have used it in a jam with a loud drummer and 3-4 other guitars on stage and never lacked for anything ('cept ears able to tolerate the ringing).

For some reason, Randall Smith is known to have publically disparaged this (HIS) product. I cannot imagine why, other than that it less fits the hard rock/metal/loud image they tend to promote.

Edit to add.....All the more puzzling in that they sold over 2,000 of them, IIRC. And he is questioning why people bought them?

To me, the BA is a Super Reverb on steroids. And the ability to get that great tone without pushing it to ear damaging levels. (Neither amp has a master volume, but the BA has 2 inputs, one with less gain).

I have played many Boogies, inc an "SOB", original IIc+s, MK IV, Quad Pre with Two Ninety power amp, Road King. Liked all of them. For me, this is their "secret" gem.

 

[László]

The easiest way to answer is with the original words from the Mesa folks. (IMO, they do a pretty good job of "hyping" their products!)

In theory (and I think in practice) the strengths of each tube type improve the "weaknesses" in tone of the other. IIRC, there are some more recent amps that do something similar, with the ability to blend the balance between the 2 tube types. I did try that with an Egnater head, but was unable to achieve as rich a tone as with the BA.

http://mesaboogie.com/support/out-of-production/blue-angel.html

Diff from the typical Boogie in that there is not a master volume., channel switching, etc, Simple, But a lush reverb. Fat/Bright switch----I prefer the former.

As to the volume issue, one possible thing. The amp has a "mojo module" of electronics that was "gooped up" Howard Dumble style to, seemingly, protect their "secret sauce". All coated in epoxy or something. Problem is, if it goes bad, it is hard to repair, though schematics are available IF you look hard enough. On one of mine (I like them so much I got ANOTHER 4 x 10 when one popped up locally) that circuit went bad. The tech messed with it for a long while before concluding a "work around" was a better solution. It DID change the tone and volume. As the tech said, set it with your EARS, not your EYES! So I DID have to set the volume higher (noon vs 10:00) and set the EQ differently. But I like the tone just as much as the "stock" version and the volume is still more than adequate......I have used it in a jam with a loud drummer and 3-4 other guitars on stage and never lacked for anything ('cept ears able to tolerate the ringing).

For some reason, Randall Smith is known to have publically disparaged this (HIS) product. I cannot imagine why, other than that it less fits the hard rock/metal/loud image they tend to promote.

To me, the BA is a Super Reverb on steroids. And the ability to get that great tone without pushing it to ear damaging levels. (Neither amp has a master volume, but the BA has 2 inputs, one with less gain).

I have played many Boogies, inc original IIc+s, MK IV, Quad Pre with Two Ninety power amp, Road King. Liked all of them. For me, this is their "secret" gem.

I liked the one I had very much for recording, and the guy who wants me to buy his (a fellow studio owner) bought it because he liked what I was getting with mine in the studio.

Live, as I said, not enough cut for my taste in a dense mix. But definitely a cool amp.

 

[László]

Edit to add.....All the more puzzling in that they sold over 2,000 of them, IIRC. And he is questioning why people bought them?

It's odd. Maybe it's just because the amp is so simple, being a single channel with fewer bells and whistles, compared to so many of his other amps (the Simul-link flexibility aside). I think the dude just loves to design "do it all" amps. Look at the Mark V -- three channels, several modes for each channel, several options for power selection, do you want a tube rectifier or solid state, etc.

Even his current "purist amp," the Lone Star, has 3 power selections - for each channel, tube or solid state rectifier, optional extra gain stage on Channel 2, defeatable FX loop, a boost control, two reverb controls, a master on each channel, plus an overall level control, various MIDI options...etc., etc.

Then you look at the new Petrucci amp, with two assignable slider-based EQs, plus the tone controls, plus plus plus...

He likes a design/engineering challenge. And he makes nice amps. So I kinda get it. He's into what he thinks is his best stuff. My guess is that he designed the Blue Angel thinking, "Will anyone really buy this thing?" and maybe his staff or his dealers were requesting a simple single channel amp?

2,000 units for a company like Mesa...I don't know if that's good or bad. Maybe not enough sales even though it seems like a lot?

 

[goat-n-gitter]

Well I'm gonna sound like a broken record in this thread, but my best sounding rig is my current one - Mesa MK V. I have the 90 watt combo, but I run it through a 1990 or 91 Mesa 1/2 open 4x12 cab, and generally leave the combo's internal speaker disconnected. The internal speaker is just there for when I don't want to take the cabinet with me. I run a line 6 M13 with 2 modules into the amp input and 2 in the fx loop (4 cable method). I know the individual tones of boutique pedals are better than a lot of the ones in the M13 (I have quite a few pedals, and will use them for recording at need), but for day in/day out playing, I just like having it all there at my feet without a lot of hassle, and I still love the tone I get. My 2 PRS sound absolutely great through this rig. Prior to the MK V, I had an old Mesa .50 caliber + that served me well for 22 years, and is now serving one of my buddies just as well.
I also have an AC30CC2X reissue, and it is great for "that AC30 sound", particularly with my Gretsch or my Ricky 12, although I'm not that blown away by humbucker tones through it. I've got a couple of old '60s low wattage practice amps by Airline and Harmony that are cool when I want that "edge of explosion" tone.
Honestly, I could get rid of everything but the Mesa rig and be perfectly happy 95% of the time.

Tom

 

[andy474x]

I'm still searching. Have some I like, but haven't found the perfect "me" amp yet. Eventually want to have a face-off between a Custom 50 and Archon. If neither of them tickle my fancy, I'll probably move on to trying a Mesa Express 5:50, and if that doesn't pan out, maybe the 5150 III 50 watt. Really wish Mesa still made the Solo Rectifier, with the improved clean channel - it would be a perfect gigging amp. Yes, the dual can be turned down to 50 watts, but it's heavy and I don't need 3 channels.

If left to my own desires, I would probably save up and go for an HXDA or 65 Amps Producer, but I keep getting pulled back into hard rock by friends that need a guitarist.

 

[11top]

I'm really happy with my

R9 or SC245 (59/09s)
PRS Custom 50 head
Boogie 2x12 slant
Vox LE Tonelab (which I use primarily for the Wah, tuner, and to add a little color on the clean channel)

 

[aristotle]

Some of us, like Aristotle, are gods of gear who have Mount Olympus sized rigs.

Finally dug out of 40" of snow. yuck...

Anyhow....
Full stacks are fun, but live, smaller rigs are more fun for me.

If it were all about cost effective tone that sounds great and is very flexible, I'd live a happy life forever with a Deluxe Reverb, an ExoticBB, an OCD, a Boss chorus, a TC flashback delay and a P22. Then I'd spend more time practicing and less time acting like Elmer Fudd with the latest Acme Inc. gadget and I'd sound a bunch better.

But...if fun is allowed to enter the equation, and we're cool with sacrificing cost, flexibility, reliability and repeatability (sometimes to the detriment of the overall tone of the band)... then let's see.

Amps: It's a tie between the MDT and the Marshall Astoria Custom. The Astoria is a recent addition though, so we'll see if it stands the test of time... If you get a chance to try one out, you should. I've never played a PRS amp I haven't liked. I still play the Archon out live, and I play with the DG30 at home a bunch. The 2 channel C has a blown power tube that I haven't gotten around to, but it's way great live. I love the HX/DA, but I like the MDT better, and they are pretty similar.

Guitars: Depends on the amp. In general though, I'd never be wanting if I had a DGT and a CU24. I never thought it's be true, but I could be without a Les Paul, and it wouldn't kill me.

Pedals: I've never been a pedal slut. Creation Labs Mark 4:23 clean boost, Exotic BB preamp, OCD, TC delay and Boss chorus. That's it, and that'll probably all I ever have.

I got a lot of the junk I have because of work (which has nothing to do with the geezer rock cover band I play in by the way...). So while I don't need an Orange AD30 for example, I really love playing it from time to time and am really happy I have it. I've only had two occasions where I could play the Marshall JTM45/100 outdoors and cranked, but I'm glad I had the experience.

 

[László]

So today I had a little studio work to do, and did some serious listening to the DG 30 with the 20th Anni PS, and tried to see if the Furman P-1800 PFR thing helped its tone without switching back and forth to the other amps - it's just easier to concentrate on one amp when doing these tone tests.

The answer is, yes, it helped, the bottom end is tighter and more crisp, the amp is clearer and cleaner top to bottom. It's quite nice this way.

I'd really have to say this thing matters. It's true that the most dramatic change came about to the Mesa, but you can really hear the difference with the DG30 as well. I'll do the same thing with the HXDA 30 next time I record it.

 

[László]

.

Pedals: I've never been a pedal slut. Creation Labs Mark 4:23 clean boost, Exotic BB preamp, OCD, TC delay and Boss chorus. That's it, and that'll probably all I ever have.

I only have a few pedals at this point myself. I probably should have hung onto my Xotic BB. I like that pedal a lot.

 

[Snoopygore71]

I recall the Mesa Subway Blues as well as the BA, simple single channel low wattage amp. I had the super version, Subway rocket. A DC5 and Express 5:25 as well at one point. Ironically I have had a Mesa Heartbreaker since 1999 and have run it with 6v6's at 20/40w. This model has been much disparaged and the Mesa forum appears to suggest it should be modded. But for me it does something, the one amp I would like to try would be the DG30.

 

[alantig]

So today I had a little studio work to do, and did some serious listening to the DG 30 with the 20th Anni PS, and tried to see if the Furman P-1800 PFR thing helped its tone without switching back and forth to the other amps - it's just easier to concentrate on one amp when doing these tone tests.

The answer is, yes, it helped, the bottom end is tighter and more crisp, the amp is clearer and cleaner top to bottom. It's quite nice this way.

I'd really have to say this thing matters. It's true that the most dramatic change came about to the Mesa, but you can really hear the difference with the DG30 as well. I'll do the same thing with the HXDA 30 next time I record it.

Les, whenever you've made these kinds of adjustments, do you ever go back and A/B a newer recording to an older one to compare? I know there are variables with micing and such, but do you ever try to do something more than just the kind of test you describe here?

 

[László]

Les, whenever you've made these kinds of adjustments, do you ever go back and A/B a newer recording to an older one to compare? I know there are variables with micing and such, but do you ever try to do something more than just the kind of test you describe here?

I have, but only occasionally, for the very reason you describe - I'm always revisiting my mic technique.

The difference with this Furman and the Lone Star is so clear, I'd hardly even call it a test. It's that obvious, at least in my studio setting.

But I could easily hear the difference with the Furman and the DG30, and didn't feel it warranted anything more. I figure if I can hear it, I'm convinced.

 

[Boogie]

I only have a few pedals at this point myself. I probably should have hung onto my Xotic BB. I like that pedal a lot.

I don't have a lot of pedals, but to those I'd do have, I'm a slut...a cheap, $5 on Fridays, no dinner required, floozie. There, I said it.

 

[László]

I don't have a lot of pedals, but to those I'd do have, I'm a slut...a cheap, $5 on Fridays, no dinner required, floozie. There, I said it.

If you know any women that meet that description, give them my number. I have a lot of teddy bears on shelves.

 

[bodia]

If you know any women that meet that description, give them my number. I have a lot of teddy bears on shelves.

Bwahahahahahaha!