Using a multi-FX in the right way... advice needed :)

[Andi]

Hello everyone! As stated in my signature, I hope my English is decent enough

I would love to pick your brains on the way I should use a multi-FX.

I've always been a player that prefers "simple" sounds, also because of the genres I enjoy playing (classic rock, blues, etc). For this reason I tend to have very few pedals - an overdrive, a wah-wah, and a tremolo and a delay I use very rarely.

I recently bought a Line6 HX Stomp for several reasons; on one hand I would actually like to be "more literate" on effects (let me put it this way: using effects correctly requires time and a sort of learning curve, and I admit that my very simplistic approach is not only due to a "philosophical choice", so to speak, but also to my "ignorance" and laziness on this front), and in general I like the idea of getting acquainted with home recording - even simple stuff with Garage Band - so that I can put together ideas in a structured way, improve the way I practice, etc, so having amp and cabinet simulators is useful.

The thing is: I always end up with sounds I don't like.

Let's say that I want to define a sound I like for a song we play with my band. I imagine something with a bit of distortion, a little bit of chorus or flanger, and maybe a bit of delay. I start from scratch on the HX Stomp, I start tweaking each effect, and the end result, when plugged into my Mesa amp (naturally without any amp and cabinet simulation) is basically a sound that would be perfect for an Italian disco song from 1986 (and I'm Italian, so I know what I'm talking about ).

Did this ever happen to you?
I know that this thread sounds a bit idiotic, and - rationally speaking - the answer is likely simple: "simply turn down the levels of each effect, so that their impact on the overall sound is more discrete".
But maybe the solution is more articulated... it could be about "technical" aspects (example: I always wonder whether I should use my amp's FX loop - I currently place the HX Stomp between the guitar and the amp input), or more importantly it could be something wrong about my approach.

It almost feels like there's some aspect or "trick" missing in my approach, but I'm not sure what it is.

All suggestions are absolutely welcome, especially from fellow players that faced a similar issue but ended up with a satisfying sound

Thanks a lot!

 

[Glide-bpm]

I'm Fractal user primarily and have made the jump to guilty digital, so of course I can put together a rig/preset with pedal/effect blocks traditionally best in front of the amp preamp (amp and can models for me, front input on your tube amp). I can easily place the effects (typically best in the effects loop between the tube amp preamp output and tube amp power tube section) at the end of my chain on the modeler or between the amp block and the speaker cab block/IR.

If the HX Stomp has two effects loops, you can physically plug your guitar into the HX Stomp input, then the HX Stomp effects loop 1 out to your tube amp input. Next you plug your tube amp effects loop output into the HX Stomp effects loop 2 input. Then plug the HX Stomp effects loop 2 output to your tube amp effects loop input/return. This would be the only way you could get stuff like distortion pedal mods, phase shifter, etc, in front of your amp preamp section, and traditionally post tube amp preamp type effects like delay, reverb in the traditionally post distortion section between your tube amp's preamp and power amp sections.

Otherwise, you'll plug the HX Stomp in front of the amp and distortion pedal blocks work great, but your delays/verbs sound like crap because the tube amp preamp gain/distortion is after them.

OR you use the HX Stomp in your tube amp effects loop and your delays/verbs are great, but a distortion pedal block in the stomp will be distorting the tube amp preamp and kicking the power tube section of the tube amp versus sounding like a real distortion pedal in front of your amp. That's where amp modeler multi effects boxes like Helix and Axe FX III/FM9 Turbo that have multiple loops can allow you to split the stomp/effects blocks in the correct section of your tribe amp to emulate you having a bunch of pedals in the front input of the amp and a second after amp preamp (before amplifier power amp section) type effects.

If you have at least two loops on the HX Stomp, you can segment your effects types with the multi cable method and create your presets with the stomp/effects blocks inserted on the correct areas between the two HX Stomp loops (if it has that capability as far as inputs/outputs and loop inputs and outputs. Search for 4 Cable Method and if there are other variations.

 

[JasonE]

The first rule is, less is more. You seem to already be thinking in that direction. When you start combining effects things build up. Another thing is if you are going to use this in a direct connection way, start with the amp model and get that sounding good first, then add your other effects one at a time. There is a lot to learn here.

Volume is a factor as well. Loud sounds much different than the same patch at a lower volume, like when recording. Dial them in for the purpose that you intend to use them for.

I don't like to record guitar parts with the effects on them. That can paint you into a corner to where you have to record the part over again if the effects don't mesh up with the rest of the song. I will add delays and reverbs, etc., after I record the part, in the DAW.

 

[Andi]

Thanks so much to both of you!
I will definitely try what you recommended!

 

[László]

What's going to work for person A isn't necessarily going to work for person B. But it's great to get friends' input, try a few things, and see what works for you.

Here's what works ideally for me when recording:

Develop sounds using your amplifier (whether you like your effects in front of the amp, in the loop, or some combination of both using the 4 cable method). The sounds might be ones you'd use live, or just for recording.

Record the amp with something like a Shure SM57, an inexpensive mic that lots of pros use to record an amp. You'll get a more natural sound. I say this not just because I prefer tube amps to models (I do), but because the room's interaction with sound matters to our ears and brains. When we're not hearing the room reflections and acoustical modes that our ears are used to, (this happens using headphones or studio monitors), we tend to over-compensate with ambient effects like reverb and delay.

Generally (not always) artificial stuff sounds deadly on a recording.

If you wouldn't use a sound with your amp in the room, chances are it's going to be wrong for a recording, too.

If you have to use an amp model to record, use it with the sounds you develop with your real amp. I think you get a more realistic result. In that case, as Jason E suggests, you might want to add your reverbs and delays in the mix with plugins, or outboard gear if you're using a recording mixer.

One last suggestion that you might already be doing:

Turn off all the effects in an effects chain except the effect you're tweaking. Get that one right, and do the same with the next one, et cetera.

Having them all on at the same time can give a false picture. The one exception might be reverb.

Finally, Giorgio Moroder might want to have a few words with you about disco...

 

[Andi]

Finally, Giorgio Moroder might want to have a few words with you about disco...

You definitely have a point

OK, so... first of all thanks a lot again for all your contributions, the "full picture" is absolutely useful!

Let me add a couple of information, and one final question.


The typical scenarios are:
A) playing at home with headphones
B) playing at home with my Mesa amp, at low volumes
C) playing live in a venue with my Mesa amp, at "normal" volumes
D) recording something (ideas, demos, loops and/or backing tracks) at home

The only scenario in which I need to use the amp and cabinet simulation features of the HX Stomp are A and maybe D. "Maybe" because in scenario D, I prefer to simply put my Sennheiser E609 in front of my Rectoverb 25.

In other terms, I use the HX Stomp as a multieffect only, even if it's not the most logical choice on earth (it's limited to 5 FX, but I don't mind since I like to keep things basic, and the "real" reverb on my amp is absolutely fine).

The big questions is the following: I "studied" a bit the instructions from Line6, and now I fully understand the 4-cable method you kindly described; the part I don't get is... how do I create presets in which some blocks remain "in front of the amp" (typically an overdrive) and other blocks are sent to the FX loop (delay, flanger, etc)?
Is the HX Stomp "smart enough" to do that on its own or should I decide which go where with a specific setting?

Thanks again for your patience

 

[Andi]

Maybe I found the solution in this video, around minute 22

 

[PRSWILL]

That's a cool little box. I have a couple of processors- AxFX and Eleven rack that i've used live in the past as well. When using them LIVE, I don't use an amp at all. We use IEM's and I just run to the house. You could have a mix bussed back to your monitor and avoid all of the 4-cable stuff this way.

 

[Glide-bpm]

Maybe I found the solution in this video, around minute 22

I'm not sure of the signal chain in the Line 6 HX Stomp. I will look at it and see if I can find some screenshots and read a few articles for it as well as the owner's manual. Having owned the Helix for a few years, it's not going to be a foreign language to me. I just need to check "virtual" signal chain in the HX Stomp. If it can have two loops and has enough blocks, it's usually easy to build a template using two FX loops on the Stomp where you place all your simulator blocks on the correct side of the two loops that get you one section in front of the amp, and one section in the correct slot to do mostly time based/reverb type FX blocks and get them between your amp preamp and power amp with the effects loop on your amp.

I'll either find a diagram or sketch my own once I see what the HX Stomp is capable of. Helix and my Fractal Axe FX III and FM9 can do this easily since they all have multiple physical and corresponding virtual signal chain loops. Fractal FM3 is capable as well I believe, and other boxes like the Headrush full size board and Quad Cortex if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Glide-bpm]

@Andi
Okay... looks like you can connect the HX Stomp okay. Brain fart moment thinking it needed 2 send/return loops on the HX Stomp versus the one it
has.

Guitar ---> HX Stomp input jack ---> [X number of dynamic blocks (overdrive, other stomps)] ---> [HX Stomp Send/Return block] ---> HX Stomp Send jack ---> Tube amp input ---> Amp effects loop Send ---> HX Stomp Return jack (left/mono) ---> [Desired HX Stomp time based and other blocks like Reverb/Delay] ---> HX Stomp Main Output jack (L/mono) ---> Amp Effects Return jack ---> Amp Power Amp tubes section/Amp Speaker Out jack ---> Real Speaker Cab

So you'll have to take up one FX Block slot for the send/return on the Line 6 HX Stomp, but this segments your HX Stomps into
"front of the amp" blocks and "before the amp power tube section" blocks.

It's turning your HX Stomp into a virtual front of amp pedalboard on one side of the send/return and one half like a virtual
rack mount or pedal digital delay/reverb and other tail end of the signal chain friendly blocks.

Similar to having a clean tube amp that has a loop and having analog pedals into the front of the amp, and
say an Alesis Midiverb or other processor in the amp loop.

You can probably assign a scene parameter change to a footswitch and bypass/enable one, more, or all your post amp preamp effects like verb/delay/etc and turn on/off distortions and stuff on the before the amp preamp segment of your HX Stomp preset that kicks the
front end of the amp.

Looks like you get 8 simultaneous blocks in an HX Stomp preset, so you can subtract one for the Send/Return block and have
3 on one side of it and 4 on the other. I'd probably have one preset with more on the amp input side of the send/return and 2 to 3 on
the amp effects loop side going into the power amp. But at least you can choose your own layouts per preset that meet your needs using
7 blocks and a send/return block.

 

[Monahan]

Hello everyone! As stated in my signature, I hope my English is decent enough

I would love to pick your brains on the way I should use a multi-FX.

I've always been a player that prefers "simple" sounds, also because of the genres I enjoy playing (classic rock, blues, etc). For this reason I tend to have very few pedals - an overdrive, a wah-wah, and a tremolo and a delay I use very rarely.

I recently bought a Line6 HX Stomp for several reasons; on one hand I would actually like to be "more literate" on effects (let me put it this way: using effects correctly requires time and a sort of learning curve, and I admit that my very simplistic approach is not only due to a "philosophical choice", so to speak, but also to my "ignorance" and laziness on this front), and in general I like the idea of getting acquainted with home recording - even simple stuff with Garage Band - so that I can put together ideas in a structured way, improve the way I practice, etc, so having amp and cabinet simulators is useful.

The thing is: I always end up with sounds I don't like.

Let's say that I want to define a sound I like for a song we play with my band. I imagine something with a bit of distortion, a little bit of chorus or flanger, and maybe a bit of delay. I start from scratch on the HX Stomp, I start tweaking each effect, and the end result, when plugged into my Mesa amp (naturally without any amp and cabinet simulation) is basically a sound that would be perfect for an Italian disco song from 1986 (and I'm Italian, so I know what I'm talking about ).

Did this ever happen to you?
I know that this thread sounds a bit idiotic, and - rationally speaking - the answer is likely simple: "simply turn down the levels of each effect, so that their impact on the overall sound is more discrete".
But maybe the solution is more articulated... it could be about "technical" aspects (example: I always wonder whether I should use my amp's FX loop - I currently place the HX Stomp between the guitar and the amp input), or more importantly it could be something wrong about my approach.

It almost feels like there's some aspect or "trick" missing in my approach, but I'm not sure what it is.

All suggestions are absolutely welcome, especially from fellow players that faced a similar issue but ended up with a satisfying sound

Thanks a lot!

Your default perspective (simple) is where I come from as well.

When using digital units (Boss GT100, Zoom G3) I always approach it with the same perspective; 'simple'. Beginning with an amp sound I like (usually set real crunchy when the guitars volume is full up, then backing off the guitars volume to clean things up-- that's my core setting, and it allows me to have a clean, or crunchy tone right there under my pinky finger

Then I'll add an EQ in front of the "amp" which is set to alter the guitars fundamental tone when needed.

Other than that, my chain will include a chorus of some sort, a delay, an octave pedal (currently just for experimental purposes).

So I'm going: guitar -> EQ -> chorus -> delay -> octave -> amp -> cab. These things are easily moved around, but honestly I don't use the effects for much, and typically not together.

Having similar goals as you concerning this stuff, you might consider what I'm fixing to try; download a premade patch that sounds great to you, and play though just that one patch for a few hours-- turning effects on & off as you play with the patch. Then once you have a working understanding what each effect and the order of effects have on the end product, reverse engineer the patch. Take it apart and see what happens. Move things around and discover sounds you like, and those you don't. Spend a day or two exploring what that patch has to offer, and what you can learn from it.

With that experiment in your pocket, find another patch you like that's different from the first and repeat the process using the same guitar.

After a while you'll have a good idea how to begin building your own patches-- that's my theory at least LOL!

Personally, I like the Boss stuff as the programing options are somewhat limited compared to... say the HX Stomp (fewer overly detailed options that can feel overwhelming). That said, I have been contemplating picking up an HX unit simply for the ability of downloading patches made by other folks as it seems to be a standard universally used effects unit.

Keep us updated on your progress!

~M

 

[Andi]

Thanks a lot to all of you, i really appreciate!

Right now I am a bit undecided re: a gig next month. Should I invest a bit of time into the Line 6, and learn how to use it properly, or should I use my small pedalboard (details below), minimize the risks and keep the Line 6 more for experimenting / home recording / practicing, at least for the moment?

My pedalboard is composed of:
- Boss volume pedal + tuner
- JHS Morning Glory overdrive
- MXR Carbon Copy delay
- Boss tremolo
- Mooer e-Lady flanger

I like the idea of learning how to use the HX Stomp, eventually replacing all those pedals with only 1 device, and I also like the idea of the additional features (looper, amp and cabinet simulation, etc).

I am simply wondering whether I should stick with a tested solution (pedalboard) for playing live, at least until I’m “literate” enough…

In any case: thanks again and looking forward to all your recommendation - I guess I’m a bit too old for complex devices, so the help is really appreciated

 

[Glide-bpm]

Your default perspective (simple) is where I come from as well.

When using digital units (Boss GT100, Zoom G3) I always approach it with the same perspective; 'simple'. Beginning with an amp sound I like (usually set real crunchy when the guitars volume is full up, then backing off the guitars volume to clean things up-- that's my core setting, and it allows me to have a clean, or crunchy tone right there under my pinky finger

Then I'll add an EQ in front of the "amp" which is set to alter the guitars fundamental tone when needed.

Other than that, my chain will include a chorus of some sort, a delay, an octave pedal (currently just for experimental purposes).

So I'm going: guitar -> EQ -> chorus -> delay -> octave -> amp -> cab. These things are easily moved around, but honestly I don't use the effects for much, and typically not together.

Having similar goals as you concerning this stuff, you might consider what I'm fixing to try; download a premade patch that sounds great to you, and play though just that one patch for a few hours-- turning effects on & off as you play with the patch. Then once you have a working understanding what each effect and the order of effects have on the end product, reverse engineer the patch. Take it apart and see what happens. Move things around and discover sounds you like, and those you don't. Spend a day or two exploring what that patch has to offer, and what you can learn from it.

With that experiment in your pocket, find another patch you like that's different from the first and repeat the process using the same guitar.

After a while you'll have a good idea how to begin building your own patches-- that's my theory at least LOL!

Personally, I like the Boss stuff as the programing options are somewhat limited compared to... say the HX Stomp (fewer overly detailed options that can feel overwhelming). That said, I have been contemplating picking up an HX unit simply for the ability of downloading patches made by other folks as it seems to be a standard universally used effects unit.

Keep us updated on your progress!

~M

And for a few more bucks your can exponentially expand your tones and horizons with a Fractal FM3. Even get some of the best, if not the best amp and cab modeling for those days when you just don't want to use an amp!

 

[LunarRock]

There are up to 8 blocks available on the HX stomp, but it depends upon what you choose as their is only so much DSP so adding amps and stereo effects brings the subsequent menu choice down

If your using headphones, tip is to put a stereo effect at the end of the chain, sounds better

I don't use 4 cable method so no help there, but see the jason video linked below (he has lots of good line6 content, and there is a good thread on the gearpage you could ask there, under digital & modelling gear )

I either run straight in or (if using amp models) into my 'amp' power amp in. Its a catalyst amp, SS, which may play better together better than a valve amp. One thing to check is if your amp prefers line or instrument level in the loop.

I find it easier to use hx edit on laptop to set the box up, and most of the time I have just a simple OD, reverb, delay straight in, or same plus an amp & speaker model into power amp in

Do try the ventoux model, its a line 6 original, sounds good at stock settings