Sonzera 50 Watt Or 20 Watt

[Paulg2uk]

HI guys,

I'm waiting on the Sonzera's to turn up over here in the UK. I just wondered I usually go for a head version when I buy an amp as it goes with my rack setup and I've noticed the 20 watt combo's are 6L6 based and the 50 watt head and combo are EL34 based. I'm guessing the head can only take EL34's and I won't be able to put any 6L6's in there? I'm usually a 6L6 guy anyway as I love the headroom especially on the clean channel.

Does anyone own a head version yet? I'm interested to see if it provides that clean headroom that 6L6's do. At 50 watts I'm guessing it does.

Cheers

Paul

 

[László]

Does anyone own a head version yet? I'm interested to see if it provides that clean headroom that 6L6's do. At 50 watts I'm guessing it does.
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Part of the headroom equation is the power section of an amp, but don't underestimate the effect of the design of the preamp on headroom. Play a 22 Watt Fender Deluxe with its 6V6s alongside something like a 22 Watt Magnatone with 6V6s, and there's a world of difference in headroom; the Deluxe starts to break up at much lower volume.

In fact, a 50 Watt Blackface Bassman head I owned for years from new had much less headroom than my 25 Watt Ampeg Reverberocket 2 from the same era.

And of course a 100 Watt Marshall breaks up sooner than an 85 Watt Twin.

It's not simply EL34s in a Marshall style amp that give it less headroom, or 6L6s in a Twin that give it more headroom. It's preamp, tone stack, transformers, in fact, the whole circuit.

 

[andy474x]

I'm interested to see what the impressions of the 20 vs 50 are, not only in terms of headroom, but just the tone in general. I'm usually not a fan of "small box" combo amps, but the clips of the 20 I've heard just have a certain sweetness to them that I like. But if I get the 20, I'll want the 50 too... *sigh*

From the sounds of things, the Sonzera may not have tons of clean headroom, especially the 20 - I know they designed the clean/rhythm channel to break up a fair amount in the preamp. What that will equate to in the real world, hopefully someone with experience can chime in on that. Although I would say it's a safe bet that the 50 will have more headroom because they're probably very similar preamp sections in both amps, just with more in the power section of the 50.

If you're looking for headroom in a smaller amp, I would look at the Custom 20. The 2 channel custom series have a serious amount of headroom on the clean channel.

 

[BolinTrucks]

I'm interested to see what the impressions of the 20 vs 50 are, not only in terms of headroom, but just the tone in general. I'm usually not a fan of "small box" combo amps, but the clips of the 20 I've heard just have a certain sweetness to them that I like. But if I get the 20, I'll want the 50 too... *sigh*

From the sounds of things, the Sonzera may not have tons of clean headroom, especially the 20 - I know they designed the clean/rhythm channel to break up a fair amount in the preamp. What that will equate to in the real world, hopefully someone with experience can chime in on that. Although I would say it's a safe bet that the 50 will have more headroom because they're probably very similar preamp sections in both amps, just with more in the power section of the 50.

If you're looking for headroom in a smaller amp, I would look at the Custom 20. The 2 channel custom series have a serious amount of headroom on the clean channel.

I can't make a 20 V 50 comparison, but I can comment on the 20. Been playing mine for a week, once at gig-volume rehearsal. The clean channel breaks up at around 12:00 plus. It breaks up gradually, which makes it seem very useable. I've found that it was easier to get the volume I needed while controlling the breakup while using my Tele. My Paul was a little more unruly, but still useable. Overall, this: Sounds great, both channels. Hard-to-fathom loud. Gain channel covers very wide territory. My back loves the relief!!

 

[HANGAR18]

fwiw... One of the videos I watched, Brian Ewald stated that the 20w leaned more to the American Fender tone while the 50w leaned a little more toward the British tone.

 

[ColonelForbin]

I've only got experience with the 50w head. I've had it about two months or so. Still digging it! Was playing last night and this evening before I got distracted by hockey..

Very loud but sounds good at home. I've gigged it once, done various jam sessions with drums, bass, and another guitarist.

I went with the head because I already have another 50w combo and figured the weight relief would be nice.

I have primarily used it with two Friedman cabs; an open back 1x12 16ohm and a closed back 2x12 8ohm. Sounds killed with both! Right now the 2x12 is at jam spot and the 1x12 at home.

Also used my Fryette PS2 with it, to excellent effect.

The clean channel is nice. If you dime the master and slowly roll up the clean channel volume that's what gives you max clean headroom; and tons of volume.

The channel volume introduces breakup in preamp. Roll back master roll up channel to taste.

Drive channel trickier. Gain comes on fast! Can't dime the dirt master without introducing noise. I put a JJ5751 into V2 to tame the gain a touch. I like it alot! Does some nice blues to crunch to Marshall-esque within the first portion of the drive range. Then it goes into a sort of fuzzy crispy high gain almost JCM800 kind of vibe. Though I Might be just inferring any Marshall tones from the choice of EL34 for the power amp tubes! It definitively has its own vibe. I can get the two channels balanced very well; anything from almost identical to very different. I tend towards full Fendery clean to semi Plexi crunchy.

It does respond well to use of volume knob on guitar! I also find rolling back the bass a fair amount on both channels helps tighten things up with the particular cabs I am using.

All that being said, I would really like to compare with the 20w!

 

[Paulg2uk]

Thanks for the replies everyone. That's a big help. I think I'm gonna go and try them both out when they tun up over here in the UK. I've played Boogie's since 94" and have always used them. Since buying a Road King 2 head I've decided to sell my MKV 35 Combo as the RK does everything I need it to do. I was just after something a little different to use at home and possibly when gigging now and again depending what I feel like. I saw the the Sonzera and thought I'd give it a go. I forget the last time I've owned a different brand in an amp.Really looking forward to trying them out and exploring those PRS tones.

 

[Adel]

I didn't play 50 but I have a 20 while like people said it starts breaking right after 12 I started by trying different speakers first the V type is too bright and tin for the application not im saying its bad speaker I have one I mix in a 2x12 application with mesa head and it sounds terrific .
anyways I kicked the V Type speaker out tried several g12m70 sounded great in channel 2 but not in 1 . so kept trying Texas heat ,v 30 ,classic lead 80, private jack ..... then I have this eminence lightning bolt sitting I tried it and boom kinda nice on both channels so went with it .

Head room
I wanted a head room and also the drive channel you barely can touch it yet I found out that you have to open the level to get the eq kicking the EQ in channel 2 try it . at low level it sounds fizzy .
so I started experimenting with preamp tubes in V1 and V2
first the stock ruby too much gain then I swapped it jj little better on channel 1 and 2
next v1 JJ v2 12ay7 RCA channel 2 drive went down by 60% but it sounded weird
next v1 12ay7 v2 5751 RCA channel 1 full headroom all the way no breaking and little bit low volume and no bite channel 2 lot better .
next V1 5751 v2 RCA 12AT7 channel 1 better 90% headroom less bite , channel 2 at 60% gain sounded not the best kinda odd.
next sovtek 12ax7WA in V1 and 5751 in v2 , channel 1 nicer good bite nice dynamic the soviet is not as high gain as others and its a musical tube , V2 at 70% gain sounded lot better than AX7 , 12ay7 and 12at7 to my ears
so I kept the last configuration and biased IT at 27 /28 mA for more headroom
result sounds lot better than the stock settings nice channel 1 headroom up to 80% now I pass noon nice bite and response speaker not tin and fizzy .
channel 2 a lot a lot better like now I can get a descent leads and crunch and yet as you open more the level the Eq kicks with more tight nice mids .

again its subjective everyone hears things differently and wanted to share .

 

[Adel]

Good News everyone I figured it out full Headroom in PRS SONZERA 20 after my previous post I went ahead and put a 12AT7 in the PI and boom

Full headroom better tone tried several 12ax7 in V1 as now I have full headroom and it sounds like 30w amp or so .
put back the bias to 30mA as now still full headroom . V2 jj v3 JJ v4pi RCA 12at7. (it doesn't have to be RCA ) any 12at7 will do .
so far I worked on the first channel only here are the results .
V1 with JJecc 83s. sounds spongy saggy and bluesy chuggy bass and warm top end .blues all the way !
V1 with groove tube 12ax7-C balanced and warm more bright top end than jj and even non saggy bass . nice response
V1 sovtek 12ax7 WA close to groove tube little scooped but musical . nice response and dynamic .
V1 Mesa 12ax7 STR 90s sounded very good balanced warm clear top end clear bass slightly tight . nice dynamic and sound
V1 ruby 12ax7 HG well here I get tight balanced and fast sound which I was looking for tight bass and powerful clear upper mids and top end warm enough as I roll the presence knob to 0 I get it to sound saggy enough for me for blues and such applications so I picked this one !

drive channel needs some work so far sounds warm not bad with jj but still you barely can open the level and it goes boom .
the volume at low settings sounds fizzy like I mentioned previously but as you open the level the fizziness goes away it likes to be opened to sound great .
there is a tube that I need to try first its the sovtek 12ax7 WB its a dark tube it might work I will also try different low gain tubes and will update.

Also I found out that the amp really rattles and beat up the preamp tubes very hard with the vibrations as they are closer to the speaker ive tried the orange dumpers but once you put them on the preamp tubes the metal cover won't fit and go in because they are tick so im gonna go with tin O rings washers it will work the preamp tubes don't get too hot as power tubes anyways .

so far headroom and channel 1 tones and how I wanted to sound is resolved for me im all set now the work is on the channel 2 .

thanks

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Glad it’s working. But, can you explain how you have more “headroom” after dropping the AT7 in the PI slot? That would only reduce the level of a stage that is not overdriven unless the amp is cranked way up. Reducing gain doesn’t increase headroom.

 

[Adel]

Glad it’s working. But, can you explain how you have more “headroom” after dropping the AT7 in the PI slot? That would only reduce the level of a stage that is not overdriven unless the amp is cranked way up. Reducing gain doesn’t increase headroom.

Well its working you can try it .
lets clear headroom first usually on SONZERA 20 around 1oclock you start hearing a breaking you get more as you push further its not wrong or bad I just didn't want it .
I wanted full power clean as possible like what I have now .

ok what you have mentioned in your comment ive experienced it with 12at7 in V1 . drop in the volume and power so lets say to have the sound of the volume at 9 o'clock I had to push it to 12 for example, in the amp of course full headroom means volume all the way up no breaking but it was weak not there no dynamic no bites no mojo wasnt right .

however with the 12at7 in PI power and bite and dynamic is there and the 9oclock volume sounds like 9 oclock and when I push to 1 o'clock no breaking clean notes lots of power bite and dynamic as I wanted it
I read in a forum that 12at7 handles more current and power than 12ax7 and this guys a tube guru went into explaining the impact of 12at7 in Pi with technical details .

dream theater if you want I can shoot you a video and you will see and hear .

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

I read in a forum that 12at7 handles more current and power than 12ax7 and this guys a tube guru went into explaining the impact of 12at7 in Pi with technical details .

For clarity, they don't "handle more current" they draw more current. They have much lower internal plate resistance and will run around 60% of the plate voltage of a 12ax7. Because of this, if the amp is designed for an AT7, it will have a much higher value coupling cap attached to the plate resistor. AT7's have a much higher bandwidth than AX7's as well, having about 40K, compared to 10K for a ax7.

This combination of factors in most circuits results in thinner tone with more treble and less bass. The difference in the electrical properties of an AT7 will also affect things after it in the circuit, including the other tubes downstream. (And could cause problems in some circuits). THIS is why I always recommend a 5751 instead, as they are almost identical in electrical properties to a 12ax7, but with less gain. This DOES NOT MEAN that your amp doesn't sound better with the AT7 where you put it. The Sonzera seems to be a "tweed-ish" amp, and it sounds like the reduced bass and increased treble is what you're actually preferring... In fact "losing your lows" is the most common response to someone who tries an AT7 although where you put it in the circuit definitely influences the overall effect.

But, the lower gain tubes do not add headroom. I have a slide show to explain this if you're interested.

 

[Adel]

For clarity, they don't "handle more current" they draw more current. They have much lower internal plate resistance and will run around 60% of the plate voltage of a 12ax7. Because of this, if the amp is designed for an AT7, it will have a much higher value coupling cap attached to the plate resistor. AT7's have a much higher bandwidth than AX7's as well, having about 40K, compared to 10K for a ax7.

This combination of factors in most circuits results in thinner tone with more treble and less bass. The difference in the electrical properties of an AT7 will also affect things after it in the circuit, including the other tubes downstream. (And could cause problems in some circuits). THIS is why I always recommend a 5751 instead, as they are almost identical in electrical properties to a 12ax7, but with less gain. This DOES NOT MEAN that your amp doesn't sound better with the AT7 where you put it. The Sonzera seems to be a "tweed-ish" amp, and it sounds like the reduced bass and increased treble is what you're actually preferring... In fact "losing your lows" is the most common response to someone who tries an AT7 although where you put it in the circuit definitely influences the overall effect.

But, the lower gain tubes do not add headroom. I have a slide show to explain this if you're interested.

what ever it is thank you and im not interested on the slide show .im not a tube expert and im not intersted in becoming one thx ! and again feel free to try it before making your opinion about it.
again I trust my ears and im not deaf and im not a novice and its not the only amp I have !

ive got what you are saying with the 12at7 in v1 !!!!! weak tone about tin less bite less everything pretty much !

I repeat I have full powerful headroom excellent bite and dynamic and better tones on both channel 1 excellent and channel 2 lot better . the amp sounds like a 30w amp way better than the 12ax7 on PI . ALL THE BASS ALL EVERYTHING !
the amp sounds bigger open no change in bass or anything tin the opposite actually is happening more articulate HD and beautiful sounding balanced and responsive ! the bass knobs are on the low side channel 1 & on channel 2 its at 9 .I have more bass than my mesa head haha
what ever you are saying man its not what im having at all ! again go try it if you have the amp first, then come after that . if you don t have the amp then this conversation is over !

thank you and good luck

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

I'm not insulting you in any way. Please don't think that I am. And, I have tried it. I was just explaining to you what it does. I acknowledged that your amp may be more what you want with that tube in that spot, and explained why, so not insulting you or questioning your judgement on that. The only thing I was disputing was that a lower gain tube increases headroom. This is a very common thing to read on the internet and it is not correct. Less gain in any device or stage can only equal less potential headroom, not more. But, understanding what it actually does can help you make decisions now and in the future, with this and other amps, etc.

In fact, the "slide show" was a joke, to make sure you knew I was not insulting you or anything and was trying to have fun with the explanation.

That said, you aren't the first person who felt the Sonzera was bassy UNTIL it was turned up. Especially on the OD channel, the V1 Sonzera can sound really good cranked though, as some demos have proven. (Look up Bosco France) That is why I speculated why you liked it better, based on what it actually does to the circuit. Reducing the gain of a PI tube, all else being equal (and it is not equal with an AT7) reduces the gain (not overdrive) that hits the power tubes. This, by itself, reduces volume and not much else. IF you were previously pushing the power stage enough to sag and compress (and if the power stage is designed to do so when the amp is cranked) it will do nothing different than just turning the master down some with an AX7 in that slot. The AT7 changes the tonal balance hitting the power stage, as well as reducing gain, and it changes transconductance and several other factors electrically. Many found the best tones in that amp (and other PRS amps as well, as PRS isn't shy about bass! LOL) by turning the bass knob down low.

As long as it sounds better to you, it IS better. Never questioned that.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

if you don t have the amp then this conversation is over !

actually, I guess I didn't read all the way through your post before replying, so please forgive my long winded reply as I didn't know the conversation was over. Again, no offense intended. Please feel free to write this off as "another guy on the internet who thinks he knows every but doesn't!

I don't own a Sonzera, so good luck with yours and I'll bug out now.

 

[Bogner]

I'll bug out now.

Bring Back Winger!

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Bring Back Winger!

Winger also knows about tubez and internet folklore.

 

[Bogner]

Winger also knows about tubez and internet folklore.

This Is True But He Doesn't Butt In With Intelligent Advice And And Say Mean Things To Offend People. Plus...He Has Kind Eyes And That Is Important For The Interweb Folklore.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

This Is True But He Doesn't Butt In With Intelligent Advice And And Say Mean Things To Offend People. Plus...He Has Kind Eyes And That Is Important For The Interweb Folklore.

If I was offensive, I apologize. Again. I tried multiple times to say things nicely. Tried several times to say I wasn’t refuting what he heard and offered technical explanations for why, while emphasizing that if it sounded better it was better. Apparently I failed to do so in a friendly manner.

 

[Bogner]

If I was offensive, I apologize. Again. I tried multiple times to say things nicely. Tried several times to say I wasn’t refuting what he heard and offered technical explanations for why, while emphasizing that if it sounded better it was better. Apparently I failed to do so in a friendly manner.

I Am Just Busting Your Balls A Little To Get Your Tube Folklore To Go Microphonic And Perhaps Even Cause Your Bias To Drift.