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Recommendations for Good Sounding Quiet Amps
- Thread starter Steven Mal
- Start date
I'm a big fan of Bad Cat and Matchless amps. One I had was an early Hot Cat 30. Man, it sounded great. And yeah, LOUD!
Yet another piece of gear I wish I still had. The story of my life!
Yeah - I had a Hot Cat too. The output difference between clean and drive channels was HUGE. Sounded great, but wow .. CH 2 was overpowering. I believe the current mods with the K Master are a significant improvement, and now useable at bedroom levels. That said, I've also learned the value of taming hot drive circuits with a 12AT7, so that could help further if another one ends up in the stable .. you never know
Yeah - I had a Hot Cat too. The output difference between clean and drive channels was HUGE. Sounded great, but wow .. CH 2 was overpowering. I believe the current mods with the K Master are a significant improvement, and now useable at bedroom levels. That said, I've now learned the value of taming hot drive circuits with a 12ay7, so that could help further if another one ends up in the stable .. you never know
I didn't find the Hot Cat's volume a problem. An amp that can cut through a dense mix with authority is a feature, not a bug!
Seriously, though, a proper amp recording (talking rock tracks here) depends not only on amp distortion; getting the speaker to react and break up in certain ways is part of the equation. Another important thing for me is pushing a dynamic mic close to the amp, and getting a room sound with a second mic. I have to move a lot of air to get that right.
But then, I'm old-school when I record. Because I'm actually...um...pretty long in the tooth.
MarcWink
New Member
If it were me, I'd have a hard look at an Orange Crush 35. They're solid state amps with digital reverb, but the tone is modeled on the Rockerverb.
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Deleted member 5962
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I have not played one of these amps. Always important to note that. I've heard them though, and read posts from, and talked too people who've owned amps with the k-master. If you're familiar with power scaling, it can be done in several ways. Power scaling is via one method or another, reducing voltage to the amp. The various ways include reducing the voltage to the whole amp, reducing it only to the power stage, etc. Reducing voltage reduces headroom. If any of you have ever tried an OD pedal at 18 volts vs. 9, you'll know that the pedal is more open and dynamic, but has less distortion or drive. The drive/distortion/compression factor is from a gain stage exceeding it's voltage capabilities. If you've ever tried the same pedal at 8 or 7 volts, it will have less headroom, but more gain/distortion. The voltage rails are lower, you're exceeding there limits more easily = more gain/distortion, but lower volume and headroom.
Think about this. By using a variac, what Eddie was doing was "power scaling" the whole amp. He used the variac to reduce voltage sent to the amp. After being quite secretive and even telling "stories" about many aspects of his tone for years, he finally opened up a couple years ago and told the "whole truth" about how he used the variac. He said he dimed everything on the plexi he was using because that was the way it sounded best, but it was simply too loud that way. He said he literally set up in each club, and left the amp completely dimed, but then adjusted the variac to the size of the club.
Sorry about the rabbit trail, but that also explains why his "plexi" had WAY more gain than anyone had ever heard. All those "he had gain stages added" etc. were not correct. But reducing the voltage to the 90s or even 80s per him, gave the amp WAY more apparent gain.
Ok, now to the K master- as people exerimented (I have) with power scaling, you could use it on the whole amp, or sections of the amp. Many felt that scaling only the output section was the best overall because it leaves the preamp section alone, maintains the tone and levels you are used to there, but only scales down the power output to tame volume. This works VERY well.
All that to preface this. All the K-master does, is that he tied a voltage reduction circuit to the master volume control. So it only only reduces volume, like normal, but it reduces voltage. What makes it unique, is what it reduces voltage too. It only reduces voltage to the PI stage. Not the whole amp, and not just the power output stage. ONLY the PI stage. So, all you guys who have claimed you love the tone of "power stage distortion" are almost always really describing the distortion that results from overdriving the PI stage, not the power tubes (which don't really distort in the way most people think). What this K-master does is reduces voltage so the PI stage overdrives more easily and at lower volume. So as it lowers volume like a normal master, it reduces voltage to the PI stage at the same time. While it took some implementation to make work correctly, it's actually quite simple. And quite genius.
An enterprising person could actually incorporate it into any amp. Trust me, the first thing I wondered when I learned about it was "boy wouldn't that be killer on an HX/DA." One of the developers of a patented power scaling circuit was an acquaintance of mine from the tube amp forum days, and he sent me one his now patented power scaling devices. I have a schematic for how to incorporate it as full or power stage only power scaling for a simple SE 5 watt amp, but I think it will work for larger amps as well and if not I know he makes some that will.
It's been out for a few years now. I'm surprised more big amp builders haven't come up with their version of it.
Think about this. By using a variac, what Eddie was doing was "power scaling" the whole amp. He used the variac to reduce voltage sent to the amp. After being quite secretive and even telling "stories" about many aspects of his tone for years, he finally opened up a couple years ago and told the "whole truth" about how he used the variac. He said he dimed everything on the plexi he was using because that was the way it sounded best, but it was simply too loud that way. He said he literally set up in each club, and left the amp completely dimed, but then adjusted the variac to the size of the club.
Sorry about the rabbit trail, but that also explains why his "plexi" had WAY more gain than anyone had ever heard. All those "he had gain stages added" etc. were not correct. But reducing the voltage to the 90s or even 80s per him, gave the amp WAY more apparent gain.
Ok, now to the K master- as people exerimented (I have) with power scaling, you could use it on the whole amp, or sections of the amp. Many felt that scaling only the output section was the best overall because it leaves the preamp section alone, maintains the tone and levels you are used to there, but only scales down the power output to tame volume. This works VERY well.
All that to preface this. All the K-master does, is that he tied a voltage reduction circuit to the master volume control. So it only only reduces volume, like normal, but it reduces voltage. What makes it unique, is what it reduces voltage too. It only reduces voltage to the PI stage. Not the whole amp, and not just the power output stage. ONLY the PI stage. So, all you guys who have claimed you love the tone of "power stage distortion" are almost always really describing the distortion that results from overdriving the PI stage, not the power tubes (which don't really distort in the way most people think). What this K-master does is reduces voltage so the PI stage overdrives more easily and at lower volume. So as it lowers volume like a normal master, it reduces voltage to the PI stage at the same time. While it took some implementation to make work correctly, it's actually quite simple. And quite genius.
An enterprising person could actually incorporate it into any amp. Trust me, the first thing I wondered when I learned about it was "boy wouldn't that be killer on an HX/DA." One of the developers of a patented power scaling circuit was an acquaintance of mine from the tube amp forum days, and he sent me one his now patented power scaling devices. I have a schematic for how to incorporate it as full or power stage only power scaling for a simple SE 5 watt amp, but I think it will work for larger amps as well and if not I know he makes some that will.
It's been out for a few years now. I'm surprised more big amp builders haven't come up with their version of it.
If it ain't broke...
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Deleted member 5962
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Well, yes and no. How many more HX/DA's could they sell if they sounded as great at medium volumes as they sound cranked up? And what if it still sounded really good even at lower volumes? Could they sell enough more that maybe the amp would still be in production?
TBH, Paul said it again in the video they put out a couple days ago. "People are still using 100 watt amps on stage." His studio has cabs at least one level below where they play/record. I don't think he buys into the need for adding something to an amp that makes it more friendly for different volumes. In fact, I think (from this and other remarks he's made) that he thinks it's on the owner to find a way to tame the volume. He's mentioned the new devices for doing so. I think he feels he should build the amp and the owner should find a way to tame the volume if needed. That's all well and good, but spending $2-3K on an amp, then another $1200 on an OX or $700 on a Power Station just so you can use it at even medium volumes is not something everyone is willing to do. I mean, you can't sell ALL the amps you build to touring professionals and recording studios.
We all know I tried multiple times to trade for an HX/DA. One time recently, you pointed out that if I really wanted one, I'd have had one. You're mostly correct. I did really want one, and could have afforded to buy one, but wasn't on board with immediately running out and getting an OX or Power Station, even though I've always wanted one (PS, Ox is relatively new) but never had to have one to make my amps sound good. If any of those trades had worked, I was already aware that I'd need to get some kind of device to reduce volume, and if I'd got the amp, would have done so. But now that the trade bait is mostly gone, I haven't pursued it much. If one came along, I'd probably take a stab at it, but I stopped looking and chasing.
Have you played through one? The master volume is quite good. I don't own an OX or other attenuator. If I needed one, I'd get one.
I can't worry about how many amps PRS sells, nor do I care very much. Ny guess is there weren't that many people eager to buy a $3500 amp, regardless of whether it had power scaling or a master volume, though in my humble opinion, it's the best amp I've ever used. But I got mine, so I'm good.
What I do know, however, is that every circuit that's added to an amp changes the tone. The fewer, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
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Deleted member 5962
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I care some, because I want the amp division to “work” and survive. The popular Archon is now built overseas. And I find your next remark curious... for the larger percentage of users, if they dump premium cash on an amp, they’d like to have something more than a high volume only tone machine. That works for some, but double the volume range that an amp sounds great and you double it’s market. Tag has posted multiple clips of the Louis Electric Cobra that sound PHENOMENAL at LOW volumes.
And yeah, having yours is cool, but the more they make the more chance of more of us getting one.
About the above, there was a guy at TGP that said he had a 30 watt HX/DA and absolutely loved it, favorite amp ever. But he wanted a little more fullness in the lows and lower mids, and had tried a 50 watt and it was exactly what he wanted. So, he sold his 30 while watching for a 50... after a while, with no 50’s available, he bought a Metropolis MetroPlex 50 watt head with a PPIVM and having a great plexi with a great PPIVM made him stop looking for a 50 watt HX/DA. Yeah, it’s just one guy, but his amp list was impressive and the story resonated with me. He said once he tried a truly great plexi amp, that had a great usable master volume, he was hooked for good.
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CandidPicker
Tone Matters. Use It Well.
Same here, Rick. The question I might ask is, does the OP need a quiet amp for his environment (late night practice, noise ordinances, not wishing to disturb family or neighbors, etc.), or can he play loudly and try some noise blocking headphones?
Remember, the best way to hear the quality and tone of an amp is when its loud. And pushing air thru a quality cab. If volume and size were an issue, I'd opt for perhaps an entry level Boss Katana or Roland Cube. Sure, it's solid-state, but the tone quality at lower volumes might be what the OP might appreciate. Your family will appreciate this as well, but I'd not take it out on the front lawn and jam. That might freak out the neighbors.
I said it before, but I'll repeat: The HXDA has an excellent master volume, and sounds phenomenal at low volumes, provided you don't need to hear speaker breakup (I kinda need that). But that would happen with any amp.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that the Cobra is a Dumble clone. It's a completely different sound from the HXDA. There's very little point in getting a Cobra if you want a vintage Plexi sound.
Have you played through both the HXDA and Metroplex? I have.
Both are great. However, there are important differences between the two amps, as I'll discuss below.
The Metropoulos is a nice amp; it's actually made about a half hour drive from my house, and one of their dealers, Motor City Guitar, is nearby. I've played though both the Metroplex and another model based on a vintage Plexi [edit: it's called the Superplex], and they're very impressive. Is the amp better than the HXDA? No, it's merely a bit different
The Metro is based on a Superlead. That's all it does. The HXDA does something the Metroplex cannot do, and that's switch into Superbass mode with the HX and DA switches. The switches make its tone more customizable than the Metro. Essentially, the HXDA is two amps in one, or can be part one, and part the other.
I was able to set up my HXDA with just the right amount of sweetness with the switches. So to me, it's the preferable option.
I didn't think the MV on the Metroplex was any better than the one on the HXDA. Both are good. But there's no need to take anyone else's word for it, whether that's mine or someone on TGP. Try them both yourself. That's the only way to know which one might work for you (or anyone else interested in these amps).
Edit:
The reason I checked out the Metropoulos amps was that one of our members, MA Pete, had them for a while, and raved about them. He also had HXDAs before and afterward. If I'd thought the Metro did anything that made sense to add to what I have, I'd have bought it on the spot, and added it to my studio. But I realized I could get closer to my preferred tone with my HXDA, and dropped the idea.
Probably the same reason I've hesitated to get an HDRX, though I still might, just because it'd be interesting.
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