Let's talk veneer

[show_a_little_faith]

I gotta say I'm on the opposite side of most when it comes to veneers. There's definitely a range, with some looking much nicer than others but if you're able to see it in person or high-quality photos, you can find some spectacular looking veneer guitars. And they still have the full thickness maple cap, it's just got the fancier veneer over it.

I believe Eric Johnson once said he could hear the difference between a Duracell and Energizer battery in his pedals, but I've never heard someone say they heard a difference between a Flame, Quilt or "plain/veneered" maple cap

There's plenty of debate over other aspects of SE vs S2 vs Core (craftsmanship, electronics, etc.) that should factor into buying decisions, but I feel like Veneers offer (usually) a much better looking top than you'd get anywhere near that price point elsewhere. Unless you're planning to refinish it, what difference does the thickness of the very top layer make?

But hey, that's just my opinion, YMMV...

 

[RC Mike]

I gotta say I'm on the opposite side of most when it comes to veneers. There's definitely a range, with some looking much nicer than others but if you're able to see it in person or high-quality photos, you can find some spectacular looking veneer guitars. And they still have the full thickness maple cap, it's just got the fancier veneer over it.

I believe Eric Johnson once said he could hear the difference between a Duracell and Energizer battery in his pedals, but I've never heard someone say they heard a difference between a Flame, Quilt or "plain/veneered" maple cap

There's plenty of debate over other aspects of SE vs S2 vs Core (craftsmanship, electronics, etc.) that should factor into buying decisions, but I feel like Veneers offer (usually) a much better looking top than you'd get anywhere near that price point elsewhere. Unless you're planning to refinish it, what difference does the thickness of the very top layer make?

But hey, that's just my opinion, YMMV...

How would you feel about a printed/stained/paper top that looked great but wasn't *really* what it appeared to be? Does the substance matter or only the appearance?

This won't be a popular thought, but to me... There's not a lot of difference between a "fake" PRS and an SE that's made to look like a US-built PRS. The difference between the knock-off and the SE is just about who gets the money.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

You pays your money and you makes your choice.

 

[László]

There's not a lot of difference between a "fake" PRS and an SE that's made to look like a US-built PRS. The difference between the knock-off and the SE is just about who gets the money.

I wouldn't go that far.

To be clear at the outset, I'm not an SE customer, and veneers kinda bug me on a guitar, too.

But beautiful veneers have been part of woodworking for many centuries. So at least there's an aesthetic benefit for those who like it.

Regardless of the veneer situation, the SEs are excellent guitars with very good quality of parts, materials, electronics, assembly, finish and they have a PRS warranty.

I'm not saying you support knock-offs, I'll bet you'd never buy one.

One has no idea what they're getting with a fake PRS, but that's just the appetizer. Here's the main course:

PRS designed the guitars, trained the SE people, rents or owns the factory, pays the bills, pays the employees, owns the intellectual property rights, and deserves to benefit from their work and investment.

Quality aside, knock-offs are illegal and ethically wrong. I'm sure you agree.

 

[László]

Has anyone here actually had trouble with a PRS SE veneer top?

Lifting? Coming loose? Coming unglued" Peeling? Any of that?

I've owned quite a few and have never had an issue.

Life isn't only a matter of functionality. Folks have things that resonate (emotionally) and that they find satisfying, and things that don't pass muster, and/or turn them off. And for the most part, they're gonna be a mishmash of different things.

Few things are more personal than musical instruments. There are aesthetic choices and practical ones.

No one needs to share another person's aesthetic - the buyer gets to make that choice, whether the criteria are purely rational or emotional. By the same token, no one needs to make the same practical choices as another person. That's personal, too.

As @RC Mike says, it's not about whether the veneer comes loose. It's also not about whether you can hear that there's veneer. It's that there's something inherently satisfying to lots of people about instruments worked in solid woods. I share that aesthetic, I don't need anyone else to feel the same way.

I've said here that I'd rather have one Core PRS than 1,000 SEs. It's true, and it's not because SEs suck. They're pretty nice!

It's because Core models give me more or what I'm looking for in the whole ball of wax I'll lump together as 'aesthetics', be they sonic attributes, feel, or other factors. It's my right and privilege to decide these things my own way, just as it's yours.

An SE fan - bless 'em all - can argue until they're blue in the face why the things that matter to me shouldn't matter. I can argue until I'm exhausted that what matters to me should matter to them.

But:

Try as we might, no one's convincing anyone else when it comes to any of this, because we're all different!

 

[RC Mike]

PRS designed the guitars, trained the SE people, rents or owns the factory, pays the bills, pays the employees, owns the intellectual property rights, and deserves to benefit from their work and investment.

I’m unsure about some of this, starting with the design. While I’m sure PRS provided the specifications of the overall product, I’d suspect Cor-Tek actually designed the guitars. They would be the ones with expertise in their manufacturing methods, production constraints, and methods. My guess is that it’s a collaborative process, with the overall shape/features set by PRS and the actual design being done by the contract manufacturer, based on what their manufacturing process can produce. Samples approved by PRS then go into production.

I’m not so sure about who owns the factories, pays the bills, or employs the workers. If it were all PRS, I don’t think the fine print on the back of the headstocks would say what it says.

Like I said, these are just my thoughts and opinions. It doesn’t actually matter to me one way or other, in terms of what I buy or use. I just see the SEs similarly to how I see veneer tops—something attempting to mimic something it isn’t. That’s not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Maxime Bousquet]

^As Les said^

I would add that the SE range offers superb quality guitars, not everyone wants to pay 4 times the price for a core. There are Sunday musicians, professionals, not all who have the same budgets, different tastes too and fortunately PRS offers instruments for all these beautiful people!

 

[László]

I’m unsure about some of this, starting with the design. While I’m sure PRS provided the specifications of the overall product, I’d suspect Cor-Tek actually designed the guitars. They would be the ones with expertise in their manufacturing methods, production constraints, and methods. My guess is that it’s a collaborative process, with the overall shape/features set by PRS and the actual design being done by the contract manufacturer, based on what their manufacturing process can produce. Samples approved by PRS then go into production.

Clearly PRS created the physical design; and shaping, gluing and finishing wood isn't a great mystery.

As to electronics, parts, etc., I would agree that methods may be more collaborative.

But PRS still owns the intellectual property. PRS buys the product, and thereby directly or indirectly pays the expenses for the manufacturing of the instruments.

That's why I say that knock offs are ethically wrong.

 

[RC Mike]

Clearly PRS created the physical design; and shaping, gluing and finishing wood isn't a great mystery.

You’re discussing the coarse bits—the shape and materials. I’m talking about the actual methods and design specifics. The SEs are not the same designs as the S2s, Bolt-Ons, and Cores. They mimic the shapes and are close on dimensions.

There’s so much more that goes into a manufacturing process than the basic shape and materials. Imperial vs meteric measurements alone result in differences, not to mention different CNC machines. The production methods and actual designs simply aren’t the same—if they were, a person might not be able to differentiate between an SE and a Core.

I’d also suggest that the change in the SE designs from WMI’s Korean factories to Cor-Tek’s Indonesian factories would support my point that each company’s capabilities and processes changes the designs. Look at the Hollowbody SEs with their laminate construction methods—would PRS have developed that method in house, when they would never use it in Maryland? PRS’s prototypes for their guitars appear in the market somewhat often, yet I’ve never seen an SE prototype—let alone an SE prototype built in the US. It may be there’s more to design than rough cutting wood and applying some glue.

It’s fine to say that an SE is a PRS—in many ways (legal and economic), they are.

 

[László]

You’re discussing the coarse bits—the shape and materials. I’m talking about the actual methods and design specifics. The SEs are not the same designs as the S2s, Bolt-Ons, and Cores. They mimic the shapes and are close on dimensions.

There’s so much more that goes into a manufacturing process than the basic shape and materials. Imperial vs meteric measurements alone result in differences, not to mention different CNC machines. The production methods and actual designs simply aren’t the same—if they were, a person might not be able to differentiate between an SE and a Core.

I’d also suggest that the change in the SE designs from WMI’s Korean factories to Cor-Tek’s Indonesian factories would support my point that each company’s capabilities and processes changes the designs. Look at the Hollowbody SEs with their laminate construction methods—would PRS have developed that method in house, when they would never use it in Maryland? PRS’s prototypes for their guitars appear in the market somewhat often, yet I’ve never seen an SE prototype—let alone an SE prototype built in the US. It may be there’s more to design than rough cutting wood and applying some glue.

It’s fine to say that an SE is a PRS—in many ways (legal and economic), they are.

You and I are talking about different things when we use the word 'design'.

I'm using the term, 'design' in regard to PRS' intellectual property - whatever that may include, though at the very least it involves registered trademarks, trade dress, patents PRS owns, and manufacturing rights of various kinds.

SEs are made under license in recognition of these property rights. They couldn't be independently made without that license under international treaties that have the force of law in all countries that are signatories.

Since PRS didn't give away the intellectual property rights it owns, it's more ethical to buy the licensed product instead of the contraband. That was my initial point.

We don't know for sure who developed the processes you're discussing. Standard practice would be that NDAs and other agreements would be signed as part of the licensing agreement, with PRS reserving all rights to the manufacture of the guitars that weren't independently developed by Car Tek prior to working with PRS.

Before I got into the music business 32 years ago, I did this kind of legal work, much to my eternal regret!

The problem with having legal training is that you can never get the stench off!!

 

[Jimi D]

How would you feel about a printed/stained/paper top that looked great but wasn't *really* what it appeared to be? Does the substance matter or only the appearance?

This won't be a popular thought, but to me... There's not a lot of difference between a "fake" PRS and an SE that's made to look like a US-built PRS. The difference between the knock-off and the SE is just about who gets the money.

Fender did that with Foto-Flame tops in the '90s... I had one of the strats and it still sounded like a strat to me... It looked pretty nice too, from a distance, but there was no depth to the flame at all... examined up close, it was very two dimensional...

 

[RC Mike]

You and I are talking about different things when we use the word 'design'.

I'm using the term, 'design' in regard to PRS' intellectual property - whatever that may include, though at the very least it involves registered trademarks, trade dress, patents PRS owns, and manufacturing rights of various kinds.

SEs are made under license in recognition of these property rights. They couldn't be independently made without that license under international treaties that have the force of law in all countries that are signatories.

Since PRS didn't give away the intellectual property rights it owns, it's more ethical to buy the licensed product instead of the contraband. That was my initial point.

We don't know for sure who developed the processes you're discussing. Standard practice would be that NDAs and other agreements would be signed as part of the licensing agreement, with PRS reserving all rights to the manufacture of the guitars that weren't independently developed by Car Tek prior to working with PRS.

Before I got into the music business 32 years ago, I did this kind of legal work, much to my eternal regret!

The problem with having legal training is that you can never get the stench off!!

I’m fully in agreement that an SE is, in legal and commercial terms, a PRS guitar. Even the shape. It’s the actual product that isn’t more than superficially similar to the US-made guitars.

It’s a lot like the difference between a giclée and the real deal.

 

[Longneck Tenon]

I'd take one used PRS Bernie Marsden, veneered top or not, over TEN Epiphones.

I'd put new pickups in it of course.

But I'd never play any of those Epis if I had a Bernie to reach for.

You can find them every day on Reverb for $800.

Is that why you have ten Bernie’s?

 

[Longneck Tenon]

While I completely understand the periodic itch to get something different - I'm that guy, too - I'd like to recommend something else:

Slow down!

No doubt you've heard the expression, "Buy right, buy once."

You made the switch to all-acoustic. That turned out to be a Big Idea that didn't work for you. You decided to get back in the electric game and settled for a Strat only recently. That's not working out, either.

Do you think settling for Epiphone Les Paul will float your boat in the long run? I'm willing to bet it will not. It's a lateral move from mediocrity to mediocrity (sorry Epi fans).

You don't care for the construction of an SE. Nothing wrong with that, personal choices and personal satisfaction are what this guitar thing is all about!

My suggestion would be play the Strat for a while - you made that choice, and it was a compromise. Seems to me you're off and running to another compromise - you're practically saying so yourself - and since you likely won't be any happier with an Epi than a Strat in the long run, I don't see the point.

Don't do it.

Exercise a little patience, and get something that will work better for you a little ways down the road. You had a high quality PRS Vela - a pair in fact - that you loved and sang the praises of. For good reason!

Live with the Strat for a while, don't settle for second best with your next guitar, and when the timing is right get what you really want.

I know your advice comes from a good place, almost fatherly in that respect. But none of us should presume to know what someone else may or may not like in a guitar. I have seen a lot of people get chastised on other boards for their preference of guitar (sound familiar Lew Guitar?), and I don’t want to see that happen here. Opinions are good, and occasionally helpful. But we have to make our own decisions and live with the consequences or rewards.

 

[Prina]

Not really.

Aahzz opened his remarks by saying a veneer top really bothers him.

Why recommend a guitar with a veneer top? Doesn't make for a guy to buy an instrument that has a built-in 'this really annoys me' factor.

While 'drives me crazy' may not be a dealbreaker in a wife it sure looks like it is in this case, partly confirmed by whose comments are getting @Aahzz likes. Nuthin' wrong with that.

But since the question was asked, I think veneers can look great in a really well built guitar if that's about the only 'cheap' quality.
Best luck on the hunt and glad the Marshall Origin is working out!

 

[Lewguitar]

I gotta say I'm on the opposite side of most when it comes to veneers. There's definitely a range, with some looking much nicer than others but if you're able to see it in person or high-quality photos, you can find some spectacular looking veneer guitars. And they still have the full thickness maple cap, it's just got the fancier veneer over it.

I believe Eric Johnson once said he could hear the difference between a Duracell and Energizer battery in his pedals, but I've never heard someone say they heard a difference between a Flame, Quilt or "plain/veneered" maple cap

There's plenty of debate over other aspects of SE vs S2 vs Core (craftsmanship, electronics, etc.) that should factor into buying decisions, but I feel like Veneers offer (usually) a much better looking top than you'd get anywhere near that price point elsewhere. Unless you're planning to refinish it, what difference does the thickness of the very top layer make?

But hey, that's just

Is that why you have ten Bernie’s?

I have five. Most of 'em have different pickups and sound different from each other.

That makes me play differently too.

But I'll admit that five is getting a little carried away.

 

[Mozzi]

Personally I'd rather have an SE 594 with its veneer on top than an Epiphone - at least in general.

At that price, its unrealistic to expect a top that can emulate a core, and at least it's real wood so I don't expect an exact match when the grain is in different directions. I would prefer a solid opaque colour rather than see the joins myself but at least you know how many pieces it was made from and you don't often get 1 piece bodies in numerous models - even at 'high-end' prices. The fact is that Epiphone too will have multiple piece bodies but I don't think their QC process is a good as PRS SE.

I also think the guitars, which may well not be 'made' by PRS, certainly was designed by and has their name on the headstock, is a 'better' design with straighter string pull through the headstock and I prefer their updated ToM bridge too. Feel, tone and playability are somewhat subjective but in general, PRS tick the box at the 'higher' end and I also think they are better than the competition at the lower end price point too. That being said, if you pick up the right Epiphone, it too can tick all the boxes but I'd still think the PRS SE would be a more reliable tool long term.

Each to their own, but If I couldn't afford to pick the materials, let alone having to rely on what other people are selling as surplus to their requirements on the used market, I'd certainly be focusing on sound, playability and/or long term reliability than a veneer or the colour but that's me. I don't know how picky I would be when I can't exactly go into a shop and pick and choose which top/colour I prefer, which feels/sounds better etc...

 

[Longneck Tenon]

I have five. Most of 'em have different pickups that make me play different.

But I'll admit that five is getting a little carried away.

Sorry, I admit I was winding you up just a little bit
Hope you’re feeling better

 

[Palmguy]

How would you feel about a printed/stained/paper top that looked great but wasn't *really* what it appeared to be? Does the substance matter or only the appearance?

This won't be a popular thought, but to me... There's not a lot of difference between a "fake" PRS and an SE that's made to look like a US-built PRS. The difference between the knock-off and the SE is just about who gets the money.

The substance is plenty good on the modern SEs, IMO. I have two 594s; one is a WL and the other is an SE. The SE was about a seventh the cost of the WL; obviously the construction is going to be different. I bought it because it's, by all accounts, a pretty good guitar and it's attractive as well, and I don't have to worry about it as much as it didn't cost multiple times what my first car did.

 

[Longneck Tenon]

Personally I'd rather have an SE 594 with its veneer on top than an Epiphone - at least in general.

At that price, its unrealistic to expect a top that can emulate a core, and at least it's real wood so I don't expect an exact match when the grain is in different directions. I would prefer a solid opaque colour rather than see the joins myself but at least you know how many pieces it was made from and you don't often get 1 piece bodies in numerous models - even at 'high-end' prices. The fact is that Epiphone too will have multiple piece bodies but I don't think their QC process is a good as PRS SE.

I also think the guitars, which may well not be 'made' by PRS, certainly was designed by and has their name on the headstock, is a 'better' design with straighter string pull through the headstock and I prefer their updated ToM bridge too. Feel, tone and playability are somewhat subjective but in general, PRS tick the box at the 'higher' end and I also think they are better than the competition at the lower end price point too. That being said, if you pick up the right Epiphone, it too can tick all the boxes but I'd still think the PRS SE would be a more reliable tool long term.

Each to their own, but If I couldn't afford to pick the materials, let alone having to rely on what other people are selling as surplus to their requirements on the used market, I'd certainly be focusing on sound, playability and/or long term reliability than a veneer or the colour but that's me. I don't know how picky I would be when I can't exactly go into a shop and pick and choose which top/colour I prefer, which feels/sounds better etc...

Absolutely. So let’s talk about that and compare:
• Epiphone 59 Les Paul Reissue:
Gibson Bluesbucker 2 and 3 pickups- together with vintage wiring/volume and tone controls, and CTS pots the sound is unmistakably that of a good Les Paul. The hardware (mostly Switch Craft) is solid and robust. The VOS matte finish looks vintage and feels good to the touch.
• PRS McCarty 594 SE:
58/15 SE pickups - they weren’t bad but were a little dark, and lacked definition.
Electronics/switchgear - this where I had some problems. The input jack clip did not make solid contact with the cord jack. The taper on the controls was nonexistent. I considered rewiring and replacing the pickups as well as the tuners as some recommended on this board. In the end there was too much to overcome.

I have owned 8 PRS guitars, and this is the first one that was a bit of a letdown. I did not expect it to fully measure up to my core or S2 models, but I was disappointed that it did not measure up to the Epiphone which sells for the same price.