It sounds like you're saturating the input buffer on the delay. Have you tried a completely different type of delay for comparison? Or use a rack mount unit that gives you input and output controls?
Let's Talk About Effects Loops
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That's a great way to go, though for less gear to carry, there's always miking up the cab and putting effects on at the PA mixer.
squirrel211
New Member
It's ANY delay, Boogie. Through the loop the effect is barely noticeable, unless I play something, stop playing and listen to the echo. I AM getting a little drive out of the power tubes.
The delay into the front of the amp is a no go.
This is that whole level matching thing rearing its ugly head.
squirrel211
New Member
Level matching? Are you referring to the loop or the front of the amp?
I thought that when playing through the front of the amp the delays staying loud, but getting progressively less overdriven was because the delay signal was getting weaker ("trailing off") and the effect was the same as your guitar volume knob being turned down. The delay is reproducing my guitar's signal, but with less strength; the front of the amp sees that the same as turning the volume knob down, correct? The whole reason that I had for putting the delay in the effects loop is that the delay would be reproducing the overdriven signal from the preamp.
squirrel211
New Member
My latest idea was to use the line out from my attenuators, then run those into effects units, into power amps, into cabinets. I figure that way, my time based effects would be reproducing the entire signal from each amp. But that's going to be $600 in power amps, a rack, $139 for a new speaker, $200 for a cab (or make one?!), and $200 in cables to run it all!!! Plus there's the issue of the space the additional gear will take up in my car/on stage, and leaving 20 minutes earlier for shows to get it set up on time.....
But I think it would sound SOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.
But I think it would sound SOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.
Dusty Chalk
alberngruppenführer
Yeah, from what you described, that's what I thought, too. I think you're farther into distortion territory than Les is used to.
andy474x
Knows the Drill
I recently watched a rig rundown with The Darkness, and Dan Hawkins runs his delays that way out of his 1959SLP's. And if The Darkness does it, it can't be wrong.
I thought you were talking about in the loop, and that your level in the loop was unacceptably low.
Usually, that means a level-matching problem, for example, an effects box isn't getting a hot enough signal from the send, or a hot enough signal from the return, or a +4 device is hitting a -10 device, etc.
Maybe that's not what you meant.
aristotle
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I guess I'm confused reading through the thread. Is the main contention that time based effects in loops don't sound good in a small to medium sized live club setting? If so, then I have hearing problems. The idea of running a mic'd signal from an amp cab (or direct out from the amp) into an effects system that will then get piped out over some stinky PA (and I my experience, any PA for a club sized gig is going to be relatively stinky when it comes to playing out guitar tone) isn't quite the ticket from my perspective. I've never experienced any problems at all running live with effects in the loop.
In a recording environment, sure, I get not wanting to use a loop because that will actually give a better result. And maybe if you're playing the enormodome with some huge arena PA it might tilt the scales in that direction too. The benefits to using a loop in a small to medium sized gig environment strongly outweigh any "tone suck" that you'd never likely notice when playing live (and I don't really notice anyway...)
As evidence (or proof that I'm wrong maybe if I'm off base) I refer you to the Simon McBride video that was posted in another thread. At around 2:20, you can see (and hear) him kicking in delay. It sure sounds to me like he's using the 2-Channel for his distortion, and that he's likely using the loop for the delay. The first question, is do we agree that whatever he's doing, it sure sounds good? (beyond the good playing of course.) The second question is do we agree that he's using the loop? If so, I can't see why you'd need to do anything better than that for a live performance.
In a recording environment, sure, I get not wanting to use a loop because that will actually give a better result. And maybe if you're playing the enormodome with some huge arena PA it might tilt the scales in that direction too. The benefits to using a loop in a small to medium sized gig environment strongly outweigh any "tone suck" that you'd never likely notice when playing live (and I don't really notice anyway...)
As evidence (or proof that I'm wrong maybe if I'm off base) I refer you to the Simon McBride video that was posted in another thread. At around 2:20, you can see (and hear) him kicking in delay. It sure sounds to me like he's using the 2-Channel for his distortion, and that he's likely using the loop for the delay. The first question, is do we agree that whatever he's doing, it sure sounds good? (beyond the good playing of course.) The second question is do we agree that he's using the loop? If so, I can't see why you'd need to do anything better than that for a live performance.
elvis
Hamfisted String Banger
I ALWAYS use the loop. I have, at times, had to go through a lot of trouble to buffer and isolate to get rid of impedance mismatch, level mismatch and ground loops. While I agree that in a perfect world, I would be better off running a power attenuator and having TRUE post-FX, it's simply too much gear for me to worry about. I'm happy if the crowd can hear me at all. And I'm not doing anything all that great with the FX anyway. Just a bit of delay and reverb, maybe some flanger or doubling.
Of course I am also using 100W amps where I never go near pushing the power tubes. If I were, I'd either get an amp where I wasn't, or go the extra mile for W/D or true-post.
Of course I am also using 100W amps where I never go near pushing the power tubes. If I were, I'd either get an amp where I wasn't, or go the extra mile for W/D or true-post.
No. The main contention I started with is that I like my effects in front of the amp, and explained why. Other folks say they like theirs in a loop.
I like them in front of the amp because I like what they do when they get compressed by the amp. Other people like them in a loop better.
I thought I took pains to say there's no right or wrong in this stuff. (I just checked and it appears that I did say this).
A side issue that's raised is what to do as an alternative to loops. I like a wet-dry rig, but I suggest that putting effects on at the PA, as one might in a recording setting, could be very good.
Obviously, that depends on the PA, right? I learned that Larry Carlton does something like this:
On his small gigs, Carlton does a thing where he uses a portable submixer live, mics his amp and plugs the mic into his submixer, and then sends his effects from the submixer to the house PA. I like that idea a lot, because it's a "best of both worlds" solution.
McBride: Sounds great, whatever he's doing.
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aristotle
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gotcha. Sorry! I wasn't as thorough in my review of the thread as I should have been! I definitely get great results with the DG30 with an exotic BB / OCD followed by time based effects all up front. But that's because the amp is used as a canvas in that case with the pedals acting as the paint. With the 2Channel C, it's much more the paint than the canvas. And even the MDT (or HX/DA as I have it set up) is providing more of the paint than the canvas. In the case of the latter two, I do miss a loop. I can set my TC flashback and Boss Chorus so that it works out, but it doesn't sound as good so far as the effects go (but of course the tone of the amp itself makes up for it.) My effects needs are pretty limited though. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had a more sophisticated effects chain.
Me personally? I'd like to see a PRS single channel amp like the MDT or HX/DA with a loop to give that live flexibility. I do see though that you can get great results up front. But the way I like to set the amps up, not as super duper as I get with a loop for live applications.
Me personally? I'd like to see a PRS single channel amp like the MDT or HX/DA with a loop to give that live flexibility. I do see though that you can get great results up front. But the way I like to set the amps up, not as super duper as I get with a loop for live applications.
squirrel211
New Member
Sorry man, I think I meandered a bit! My issue with overdriven amps is that when I put my guitar into a delay, then into the front of the amp, the delays are as loud as the guitar signal, and they simply clean up/get less distorted as they repeat out. I want the delays to stay as distorted, but be a lower volume.
I use the delay in the loop because it repeats the preamp's distortion, and I have control over the volume. Because I have a little drive coming from the power tubes, there is still a slight hint of the delays becoming progressively less distorted.
Neither case is as easy/simple as running dirt boxes into a delay, but ever since I went to amp drive, the dirt boxes just leave me wanting! I struggle to describe what the difference is, but I hear it and feel it when I play. Which is why I'm thinking of the dry/wet rig!!!
I totally get it now!
I play cleaner than some, but not always. Then too, it's all a matter of what one wants to hear. So...all good!
elvis
Hamfisted String Banger
I can only assume you aren't overdriving the amp as much as I am
If I went into the front with everything, it would be pretty mushy. With DA-level drive, I could see using that to compress delays and whatnot.
I can only assume you aren't overdriving the amp as much as I am
We old men can't handle distortion.
The Fight
Long Hair Demigod
I think that's how Neal Schon of Journey does his reverb and delay.
It keeps your signal cleaner, depending on how much delay and reverb you use this could be a better alternative.
Hollis Prince
New Member
I use the loop in my Mesa/Boogie Electra Dyne. I only run an old Line 6 DL-4 delay. I do get a tiny bit of ground loop hum, but I only notice it when playing at home at loud bedroom volume. I've never taken the time to try to quieten it.
I use the amp's drive, a TS-9 to boost the front for more gain(seldom), and the delay in the loop. The amp also has a glorious spring reverb.
The Electra Dyne is one of the best sounding amps ever, and one of Mesa's most underrated. It was released with the Mark V and with it's single channel aesthetics never stood a chance. It's also quite low gain, especially for a Mesa. It's basically a Fender Twin, a JTM45, and a JCM800 - single channel control layout, with 3 footswitchable modes.
My other rig is a couple of dirt pedals and a simple analog delay into a Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue. Both rigs sound great: clean, the Deluxe Reverb gets the nod, barely, but overdriven it's the Mesa all the way. Clean amp + dirt pedals just doesn't quite have the mojo or the magic that a great overdriven amp has imo, or maybe I haven't found the right od pedal.
I would love to try the JHS Angry Charlie or the JHS Andy Timmons @ pedal, plus a Charley Brown to use as a low gain od.
I use the amp's drive, a TS-9 to boost the front for more gain(seldom), and the delay in the loop. The amp also has a glorious spring reverb.
The Electra Dyne is one of the best sounding amps ever, and one of Mesa's most underrated. It was released with the Mark V and with it's single channel aesthetics never stood a chance. It's also quite low gain, especially for a Mesa. It's basically a Fender Twin, a JTM45, and a JCM800 - single channel control layout, with 3 footswitchable modes.
My other rig is a couple of dirt pedals and a simple analog delay into a Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue. Both rigs sound great: clean, the Deluxe Reverb gets the nod, barely, but overdriven it's the Mesa all the way. Clean amp + dirt pedals just doesn't quite have the mojo or the magic that a great overdriven amp has imo, or maybe I haven't found the right od pedal.
I would love to try the JHS Angry Charlie or the JHS Andy Timmons @ pedal, plus a Charley Brown to use as a low gain od.
Hollis, the ElectraDyne is truly a cool amp. It's a shame that so many people think only of super-high gain when they think of Mesa amps, because they do an awful lot of things well.
I'll add one thing; if you like single channel amps, the HXDA and some of PRS' single channel offerings might just knock your socks off. And I say this as a fan (and owner) of the amps made by both companies.
