Let's Talk About Effects Loops

[László]

I've said, here and there, that I don't use effects loops. But it's not just because I'm extremely lazy (which I am) and wiring up a loop is another chore I don't need. I have actual thought-out reasons, but they're not rules! There are no rules when it comes to this stuff, there are only preferences.

In addition, these are preferences that are only applicable to me, and may not be applicable to you. So let's discuss.

Issue One: Noise, Level Matching, and Variability.

Every amp's effects loop is a different thing. Some are fantastically well-engineered, some not. They all seem to have different impedance matching and level matching things happening between the loop out, your gear and cables, and the loop return. Some are parallel, some are serial, and each one does a different thing. And there is a significant ground loop issue that needs to be addressed with many loops. In addition, some loops really need buffering. If you can get your loop to operate without noise, and sound good, you are ahead of the game, because then you actually have reasonably good choices to make to get your sound the way you want it.

I won't get into how to suss out ground loops, but if you have one, deal with it. No one really wants to hear amplified 60 Hz hum or buzzes, or the radio station, coming out of your amp.

Issue Two: To Glue Or Not To Glue

When I'm sitting and doing a mix, after a while, I'm going to want to hear how it's going to sound "glued together." And by that I mean, with a compressor strapped across the stereo bus. That compressor is an important thing, because most mixes are going to be compressed at the end of the mix, before mastering, and again during mastering.

It doesn't have to be a lot of compression, but it's a thing that mixers generally do. And the reason is that all of the disparate, separately miked, instruments and vocals in the mix can sound a little too much like separate takes, done in different places. So we glue them together a bit by adding a small amount of compression, and that helps them sound more the way we hear music in a room.

In an amplifier, you have the preamp, and the power amp. These might be in one chassis, but they are two separate components. The loop comes between these components (though in the case of a parallel loop, there's a blend of the output of the preamp with the stuff in the loop, but for now let's keep it simple).

The preamp of a guitar amp compresses the signal a little if it's clean, or a lot if it's dirty. The same with the power amp section.

I find that running all of my effects into the front end of the amp glues the effects into the guitar sound a little more, so that's the primary reason I put them into the front end, even on amps with effects loops (yes, I kid around that effects loops are evil noisemakers, but that's an exaggeration I use to be funny, since noise can be dealt with). For me, putting the effects in front is analogous to using a compressor strapped across the mix bus of a console. I like it that way.

Because there are no rules, my way isn't necessarily the best way to go, but if you like a more organic, "glued together" sound, you might try your effects, including modulation, delay and reverb, into the front of the amp.

If, however, you like your effects clean, and your amp dirty, you might prefer to use a loop. You'll hear a more pristine set of effects that way, though personally, the only effects I'd put in a loop would be pitch effects ("crystals' anyone?), delay, and reverb. I still like what the front end of an amp does to modulation, even chorus. But I play fairly moderately in terms of gain. I don't play clean, but I don't play high gain. So this may or may not work for you.

One other consideration, of course, is whether to simply run dirt and modulation into the front of the amp, and get your effects at the mixer. Lots of folks do that for live shows, and for recording. That way, if you run a hotter power section where you're distorting the power tubes, you can still have your pristine delays and reverbs, etc.

Issue Three: Are You Contrarianced?

If you are bad-ass enough to run your dirt pedals in the loop, I applaud your uniquely contrary, variety-is-the-spice-of-life, approach, even though I think you might need your hearing checked. But...what if you ran a boost or even a compressor in the loop? People do this if they want a solo boost sometimes. I don't do it myself, but not because I think it's just wrong. Well, even though I think it's just wrong. I also think it's going to blow up my amp for some reason even though it won't unless I do something really, really stupid with level controls.

So for me, it's all about fear.

If you, however, are a brave and bad-assed contrarian, hey, go ahead and try it! You probably won't blow anything up unless you're careless, and even then, you probably won't blow up anything. Except maybe your speakers and I dunno...lose your hearing and stuff.

Anyway, let's summarize my post.

I like the "glue" that running all my effects in front of the amp adds. You might want more clarity from your effects. And/or, you might want higher gain from your preamp section and feel that much gain really screws up your delays and reverbs.

So we might disagree about where to put our effects, but believe me, neither of us is wrong or right. It's just fun stuff to talk about.

Sincerely,

Les

 

[Boogie]

... putting the effects in front is analogous to using a compressor strapped across the mix bus of a console

I never thought about it in this context. Makes total sense. But do you think some amps were designed specifically to work exclusively with a loop?

 

[FlameTop]

My setup is a bit of a hybrid. I dont use a loop. I place all 'guitar' effects before the amp (well a Kemper profiler with a clean model) and a few 'studio' effects after.

By 'guitar' effects I mean any mono stomp effects; overdrive, vibe, wah, phaser etc etc.

By 'studio' effects I mean stereo stuff like a compressor, eventide H9, Strymon Mobious, reverb etc.

All effects on the Kemper are turned off. Its just doing its amp/cab stuff. All this goes into a Focusrite Pro40 firewire interface and then to my PC.

 

[László]

I never thought about it in this context. Makes total sense. But do you think some amps were designed specifically to work exclusively with a loop?

Well, certainly some were designed to at the very least offer the player a set of good alternatives. But I doubt that amps have been designed only to work with a loop, even if some do better with them, and some probably do better without them.

It's my feeling that to a degree, some amps offer effects loops as a sales feature, something to tick off on the spec list. "Oh, it has a loop, and switchable power levels, and you can use either EL34s or 6L6s, and let's see...master volume that's defeatable, and oh yes, here's the dwell control on the reverb, and I see a bright switch, plus there's MIDI and...." And for those amps where the loop is an afterthought, or the design really doesn't sound great with a loop, there's no reason it's necessary other than as a sales gimmick.

But lots of builders really put some effort into their effects loops, and there's a good reason to have one. If I recall, Two-Rock even bothered to clone the Dumbleator, a rack piece that is designed to be used along with their amp to give the professional player a better experience with the use of the loop in matching it with various kinds of gear.

The question for me, as always, is, how well does it function? What's it sound like?

 

[Dusty Chalk]

- The Chemical Brothers got their legendary "big beat" sound by running their drums through some dirt pedals. Originally, it was to get all the different drum sounds to sound holistic, but it developed into their sound. Combination of your points about compression to iron out disparity and using dirt as compression.

- Modulation (chorus, flanger, phaser, vibe) before or after The Dirtying -- still a question in my mind. I like both before and after, for completely different reasons. They're different sounds, both appealing.

- I do have strong feelings about reverb, though -- that's almost always clean. When I got my first effects box (Alesis Quadraverb GT with the analog preamp section designed specifically for guitars), I went through some great contortions to try to get the reverb to get distorted. It sounded awful -- delightfully awful, but awful. That's why I said, "it's a very specific sound". I imagine it's not so bad through riding-the-crest levels of dirt, but I had totally overdriven a full-on distortion, so it just rang and rang and rang and rang and rang...

- Compression across the master bus -- meh. There are so many more advanced tools than that that accomplish the same thing, it irks me that this is still done. Have you tried Izotope Ozone? I realize you aren't always in control, but if you premaster it, and they find they don't need to, if they're smart enough, they won't.

 

[pac90]

I took my TC reverb & delay pedals out of the loop, not for sound quailty, just for practicality. Due to the level of the loop in this particular amp, although the pedals work fine, the tone print function wouldn't work - the signal was not getting seen at the pedal, and I like trying out different artist toneprints

 

[László]

Compression across the master bus -- meh. There are so many more advanced tools than that that accomplish the same thing, it irks me that this is still done. Have you tried Izotope Ozone? I realize you aren't always in control, but if you premaster it, and they find they don't need to, if they're smart enough, they won't.

Gosh. This "meh" thing is something I have to say I find offensive. The assumption behind it - that you think you've got the chops to be dismissive of other professionals' creative processes - is offensive, too.

There are better ways to put a creative point across.

I don't know your discography, your specialty, or studios you work in. I haven't heard any of your work, and it wouldn't be my business to critique it even if I had.

So I won't argue with your technique.

But throw me a bone, here. I've been successful at music production for a lot of years, and the many requests I've had to guest lecture about music production at the University and AES levels, on both analog and digital production, tells me that I'm not too far off-base.

Most folks making professional recordings in both the film and in the major label world - everyone I know in the business, and that's quite a lot of folks - uses at least a little light compression across the mix bus. Some use more than a little. There's a good reason to do so.

I own Ozone, it's been around a long time. If you think you're the first person in the universe to discover it, think again. I took it off my computer years ago, because I think there are tools that engage the creative forces in my brain in a better way. That's all one can ask for.

However, my partner still masters in Ozone. To each, his own.

This is why I suggest to folks to follow their own creative process, and took pains to point out in my post that there aren't any right or wrong answers to the question of using effects loops. It's a matter of what one is trying to accomplish.

You have no idea what my creative choices are. Suggestions are always appreciated, but "meh" is way too dismissive and disrespectful.

 

[Rider1260]

I use a TC Electronic Nova system for all my non drive effects and I run it in the loop on both my amps I am a big fan of Reverb and delay being clean when running gain.
I also really like using a boost and sometimes a bit of compression ( also from the Nova ) in the loop it works really well with my old Mesa and single coil guitars or tapped buckers
I have to admit I did build a completely separate board for my H as it needed completely different setting from my Mesa to sound its best.
As far as noise goes my Mesa MK2 is much quiter than any other amp I have tried, most other amps seem to have a slight noise before level ( I can play and record the Boogie at lower levels with less noise than any other amp I have tried ) On my Marshall and now PRS H there is a bit of transformer noise that is always present in a no volume state regardless of effects or things in the loop ( for me ) once to playing volume it is not heard.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Gosh. This "meh" thing is something I have to say I find offensive. The assumption behind it - that you think you've got the chops to be dismissive of other professionals' creative processes - is offensive, too.

There are better ways to put a creative point across.

I don't know your discography, your specialty, or studios you work in. I haven't heard any of your work, and it wouldn't be my business to critique it even if I had.

So I won't argue with your technique.

But throw me a bone, here. I've been successful at music production for a lot of years, and the many requests I've had to guest lecture about music production at the University and AES levels, on both analog and digital production, tells me that I'm not too far off-base.

Most folks making professional recordings in both the film and in the major label world - everyone I know in the business, and that's quite a lot of folks - uses at least a little light compression across the mix bus. Some use more than a little. There's a good reason to do so.

I own Ozone, it's been around a long time. If you think you're the first person in the universe to discover it, think again. I took it off my computer years ago, because I think there are tools that engage the creative forces in my brain in a better way. That's all one can ask for.

However, my partner still masters in Ozone. To each, his own.

This is why I suggest to folks to follow their own creative process, and took pains to point out in my post that there aren't any right or wrong answers to the question of using effects loops. It's a matter of what one is trying to accomplish.

You have no idea what my creative choices are. Suggestions are always appreciated, but "meh" is way too dismissive and disrespectful.

That wasn't directed specifically at you, sorry. In hindsight I realize the context makes it seem like it was, and for that, I am sorry. I wrote part of that post yesterday, should have gone back and reviewed before finishing and posting. Just sloppy writing on my part.

I realize it's ubiquitous in the entire industry, and was intended to be a comment on the entire industry, "it's still done this way", the vague plural, not that "you still do it this way".

'Meh' is the expression I use when I mean, "I'm not excited by it", not any kind of negative. "I am not excite" vs. "I am disappoint". The only time final compression is a negative is when it's applied so heavy-handedly as to "duck" some of the less bass-energetic parts, or when it ends up brickwalling. From what I've heard of your work -- you don't do either of those things. Therefore not applicable to you.

Quite frankly, I find it frustrating to listen to music without some amount of final compression. Except classical and audiophile music.

I'd be curious if your solution to the bass question of which we spoke in one of your video threads would be made better or worse by compression of the final mix. I would think at the very least it would need frequency dependent compression.

 

[goat-n-gitter]

I use effects loops. They are my friend. I place compressors, wahs, drive pedals and some modulations in front of my amp (Mesa Mk V). I place most modulations and all delays in the loop. I rarely use reverb except a touch from the amps spring reverb, I add reverb in the mix for recording. I usually don't like what high gain preamps do to delay (clearly that can be an effect in itself). The loops in the 2 Mesa amps I've used for the past 26 years (I had a .50 Caliber+ from 1990 until I bought my Mk V around 2011) have rarely had noise or level issues, Mesa seems to have this figured out. My effects situation is made simpler by the use of a Line 6 M13 stompbox modeler, which purists tend to look down on, but I find that the effects it provides, while not exactly like what they try to clone, work just fine for me and most listeners can't tell I'm not using the trendiest unobtainium stomp box. The M13 also allows me to freely configure where the split between the FX in front of and in the loop of the amp occurs. Lastly, I don't like to spend a ton of time rewiring my rig, this is the most stable it has been for years. Nothing kills my creative urge like trying to work through a technical issue for more than 5 minutes.

I do like the analogy of the main buss compressor as "glue". I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I use lots of compression in recording, not quite as much in my guitar rig.

Tom

 

[László]

I do like the analogy of the main buss compressor as "glue". I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I use lots of compression in recording, not quite as much in my guitar rig.

It's a funny thing, because I only recently realized that's why I like the effects in front of the amp.

That said, as I mentioned, in a higher gain track, I will add effects at the mixer instead, where they are even cleaner than the ones in a loop.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I were to tour with a band. I would guess an awful lot would depend on the music.

David Gilmour is legendary for never using effects loops, and always going directly into the front of his amps, but it is also said that he gets his gain only from pedals, and puts his modulation, delay and reverb after his gain pedals.

Not having played with, or recorded with, David Gilmour, I can only guess as to why he does things this way, but I'm thinking that maybe his amp becomes that "glue" for his entire sound in concert.

You get used to doing things a certain way, and it becomes "your sound" and before you know it, that's what you're known for; that is, if you're known for your playing and tone.

Since I'm not known for either, all I can do is my own thing and try to 'splain it to other folks who don't really care what I do, as best I can!

 

[andy474x]

I've been back and forth on effects loops. I prefer to use them because it's just more streamlined for live playing, which is the majority of what I do. Well, aside from hacking around in my basement studio , where it doesn't really matter either way. My loop has delays and reverb. Placing them in front of my amp, but after my drive pedals, would give me two very different delays depending on whether I was using a box, or crunching up my amp. And I prefer my delays to be the same no matter what drive source I'm using. As many of us have probably experienced, placing delay before OD/distortion makes the delays much louder and they usually take longer to trail off. Which can be adjusted for, but it's easier for me when they're in the loop. Also, the repeats interact differently with the distortion if they're in front, and the repeats become cleaner and less compressed as their level drops - not necessarily a bad thing, just not what I want. Another factor for me, I've become keen on the TC units recently, and a lot of their delays and reverbs feature modulation, which I don't think would play well in front of distortion. I haven't tried it to know for sure, but I know that any poor intonation on a guitar is magnified by distortion, at least in my experience, I can play clean and sound at least decently in tune, but throw some OD on and suddenly I'm cringing. So I don't want to mess with that, because I'm lazy.

Where noise is concerned, I use an MXR Noise Clamp in my loop as well, so it cuts down on a lot of the white noise my amp makes. Now, I'm not saying use of the loop doesn't add noise on its own, but having the gate is a big enough advantage to compensate for use of the loop, it cuts down on the total amount of noise. When playing live or rehearsing, no one wants to hear the loud hiss of a hopped up amp during a quiet sequence, or between songs, it just fatigues the ears. Certainly it wouldn't be the choice for signal purity in the studio, but live, no one is going to say, "man, that guy's noise gate is sucking his tone." At least not when you're playing hard rock, and you don't often reach the softer side of the dynamic continuum, and therefore need to worry about the gate clamping off your signal.

Another part of my loop that makes it ideal for live playing, is the LS2 Line Selector I use. It has its own effects loop, and an output control for each loop. So, I put a delay (and any other effect I want, right now just delay) in a loop, and boost that loop's level on the LS2, and I have a one stomp shop (?) for leads, it gives me delay and a volume boost.

So, the effects loop, to me, isn't a tonal advantage when it comes to signal integrity, but it is a tool that makes my life much easier when I'm playing live. I won't deny that loops can alter the tone, although on my PRS amps the loops themselves are extremely transparent and most of what I worry about is degradation due to what's in the loop. I have to hand it to Doug and crew, if you're a loop guy, especially if you use pedals and not rack gear, PRS amps' effects loops are very friendly to use. Some amp builders are still in denial of this, and it's borderline insanity to me. If you're going to put an effects loop on a modern amp, it needs to be pedal friendly! It's the one thing that scares me about Mesa amps, they're notorious for blowing stuff up when there are pedals in the loop and the amp is cranking, because the loop level is tied to the master.

Question for you guys, what effect would there be to adding a compressor at the end of the signal chain, in the effects loop?

 

[László]

Question for you guys, what effect would there be to adding a compressor at the end of the signal chain, in the effects loop?

Your guitar signal and effects would be compressed further. Low level noise would increase a little, as with any compressor, but you've got that issue covered with your noise gate.

It'd be interesting to hear the effect on your output stage. You'd really just have to experiment to know, because every compressor sounds different, and further, affects particular gear in unique ways -- one reason why you see so many types of compressors in use studios.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I like loops! I like to stick my jack in everything.

 

[László]

I like loops! I like to stick my jack in everything.

Well, I'm just a modern guy
Of course, I've had it in the ear before
'cause of a lust for life
'cause of a lust for life
I got a lust for life

---Iggy Pop

 

[The Fight]

Loops all the way for me! Lucky for me, with my g system I can choose to run to the front or the back, series or parallel or both.

There's a difference in sound and some effects to me sound better. Some spring reverb sounds better in the front but some times plate reverb sounds amazing in the back.

I always run overdrive or distortion through the front, always!

So many wires!

 

[vchizzle]

It's a funny thing, because I only recently realized that's why I like the effects in front of the amp.

That said, as I mentioned, in a higher gain track, I will add effects at the mixer instead, where they are even cleaner than the ones in a loop.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I were to tour with a band. I would guess an awful lot would depend on the music.

David Gilmour is legendary for never using effects loops, and always going directly into the front of his amps, but it is also said that he gets his gain only from pedals, and puts his modulation, delay and reverb after his gain pedals.

Not having played with, or recorded with, David Gilmour, I can only guess as to why he does things this way, but I'm thinking that maybe his amp becomes that "glue" for his entire sound in concert.

You get used to doing things a certain way, and it becomes "your sound" and before you know it, that's what you're known for; that is, if you're known for your playing and tone.

Since I'm not known for either, all I can do is my own thing and try to 'splain it to other folks who don't really care what I do, as best I can!

I prefer everything in front of the amp except verb and delay. I prefer the way modulation effects sound out front 98% of the time. Unless I want the modulation more subdued, subtle and clean sounding(rare for me except maybe on a lead line occasionally). Modulation in front of the amp makes things sound much more "effected". My live rig is setup wet/dry in terms of reverb and delay, so I don't use the loop there. Adding a second guitar player to the band has more or less ruined my live sound coming thru the FOH. When it was just me, I could convince most sound guys to mic both cabs and pan hard left/right. Now that there's 2 guitars, it's automatic one guitar player, single mic, pan to their side. If were to change my rig to not have the power amp with the delay/verb in between, I'd have to use the loop. It's getting to the point where, I'm just wasting time and energy lugging stuff around that isn't heard at the FOH. It's frustrating, but I also like the separation on stage. I've been running that type of setup for 11+ years.

Your post here sums up why most guys use loops for time based stuff though. Adding effects at the mixer on your higher gain tracks so it's cleaner is the same concept. It's really to keep things from getting messy and ugly(though, that can be cool for certain things) with high gain.

I've never really researched how Gilmour runs his rig, but all that makes sense if he gets most his gain from pedals. There was a time that I had an old Super Reverb(miss that amp). No loop obviously. I didn't use a ton of effects at the time. A crybaby, one drive pedal, a rotary chorus and an analog delay. I was playing and writing a far different style than now. I'd love to put a similar rig together again. Clean/edge of breakup amp, pedals out front. It's very pure sounding- and feeling. I understand why you like to run your gear that way. Just not practical for guys running a healthy amount of gain on to not use a loop...unless that gain is coming via pedals and the delay is placed behind the gain.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Just not practical for guys running a healthy amount of gain on to not use a loop...unless that gain is coming via pedals and the delay is placed behind the gain.

Unless you're East Bay Ray from Dead Kennedy's... I love that dudes dirty delays!

 

[László]

I will confess that I do things even worse than making delays dirty by running them in front of an overdriven amp when recording...

I will sometimes run a second delay in the mix at a low level. So I'll have a combination of the original, dirty delay going through the amp, and a second, clean delay on top in the mix.

It's very messy.

But I think it sounds awesome.

 

[squirrel211]

Les, I can see the merit in what you're saying. However, I simply can't get delays to work into an already overdriven amp. The delay behaves like me turning down my guitar's volume; it stays at a pretty consistent volume, only progressively less driven. I even have a modicum of that happening through the loop, but the loop provides me much more control for the volume of the delays that brings the effect into the "I can use this in a band" zone.

Since going to basically only using amp drive, I've been toying with a dry/wet rig, just because of this. I'm able to get a line out from my amps/attenuators, and I want to send the line level out to the delay/reverb unit, into a power amp, into a speaker cabinet.

Like I need more to take to shows!!! I'm going to need a roadie soon.