CITES

Discussion in 'PTC - PRS Tech Center' started by danktat, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. danktat

    danktat Award winning tattoo artist ... Amateur guitarist

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    As you all know, I have a limited run guitar with a Brazilian rosewood board and headstock veneer. I purchased it used and got most of the case candy with it. However, being as though it has the Brazilian board and is clearly marked "Brazilian", would I need a CITES document to travel with it? And if so, Is there a way to get one from PRS just to keep in the case with the guitar just in case?

    And a pic just to add interest......
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. dkilpatrick

    dkilpatrick Makes guitar faces

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    Only if you were to travel out of the country with it, and you are on your own to get the proper documentation.
     
  3. bodia

    bodia Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved

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    Actually, personal property does not need CITES, as long as you are traveling with it, I believe. So, you could get on a plane for Belize with your axe over your shoulder, and be fine.
     
  4. veinbuster

    veinbuster Freeze zone

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    The risk is the discretionary power of the border agent. The original bill of sale (some people do keep them) would probably help demonstrate the personal property part of that.

    If I was flying, I would probably take something not clearly labeled Brazilian and maybe without any rosewood.
     
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  5. 11top

    11top Cousin Eddie's cousin

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    Pete's right. You might not get it through customs without proper documents, and they are a b*tch to get. Having "Brazilian" written on the HS might be a problem. :eek::p

    "Personal property" has nothing to do with it though.
     
  6. MuddyDitch

    MuddyDitch New Member

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    If I was a customs agent I would seize that contraband on sight. And then it would be lost in the warehouse forever.
     
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  7. bodia

    bodia Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved

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    It does, actually. It was mentioned on a CITES thread somewhere on this forum. Here's an example from "A Guide To CITES Law On Rosewood:" And again, you have to be traveling with your guitar. As in carry on.

    Regardless, it's not something I would do. Becoming an ex-Pat may change that. I'd cross that bridge when/if it ever happens.

    Do I need CITES Certification for my guitar?
    Not necessarily. If your guitar or instrument was made before 2nd January 2017, you won’t need any certification to travel with your guitar. In addition, the law only requires you to produces a CITES Certificate if you’re carrying over 10kg of Rosewood,which is highly unlikely – you do have to travel WITH your guitar though.

    The CITES Law mainly affects dealers and brands. Brands will start shipping their guitars with CITES Certification, or provide you with a website link to get your certificate, should you ever need to prove where the wood is from.

    You can:
    You can still buy and sell guitars with rosewood (and other regulated woods) within your country and freely within the EU.

    You can travel with your guitar freely as long as you don’t have over 10kg (22lbs) of rosewood and other regulated woods.
     
  8. 11top

    11top Cousin Eddie's cousin

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    Do you have a link? That information is not what I've been led to believe. I read something like this on Reverb once, and I don't think it was accurate. I hope your information is correct, but I'd like to see the source.

    Edit: This is the language that I just copied off the Reverb website. I admit it is taken out of context:

    "..... but nothing contained herein should be construed, or relied upon, as legal advice. Instead, we are simply passing on some best practices that have worked for Reverb users in the past."
    I also called Reverb, and was told that their "buyers protection" did not cover confiscation by public authority for Cites violation.

    That doesn't sound very rock solid to me. About 2 years ago, I was attempting to sell a guitar and ship it to Europe. I personally called the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and I was told that I would have to take the guitar to an inspection facility (150 miles was the closest) and show proof of the origin of the BRW. There was also a fee to do so. I wasn't carrying the guitar, but I was led to believe it didn't matter.
    If someone here could provide a link to a website that clarifies the law, I'd be really interested. I hope I'm wrong.


     
    #8 11top, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  9. bodia

    bodia Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved

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    There's also this on the US Fish & Wildlife website.

    Musical instrument certificate (“passport”) for frequent cross-border non-commercial movement of a musical instrument containing species listed under CITES and/or the ESA

    To ease the paperwork burden on musicians traveling with musical instruments made from CITES-listed species, the United States put forward a proposal at the 16th Meeting of the Conference of the Parties to implement a passport program that would facilitate the frequent non-commercial, cross-border movement of musical instruments for purposes including, but not limited to personal use, performance, display, and competition with the issuance of just one document.

    The cut/paste in my previous post was mainly talking about traveling to the EU. Here it is.

    https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/blog/2017/05/19/a-guide-to-the-cites-law-on-rosewood-guitars/

    Still, not something I think I would risk doing.
     
  10. bodia

    bodia Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved

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  11. Alnus Rubra

    Alnus Rubra Loving nature’s wonders

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    I remember the gear video for Carlos Santana,where Salmon (Br Rosewood neck) has a European counterpart, son of Salmon (Indian RW neck) that they consider safe to use for the Euro leg of any tour.

    If his tech isn’t confident to take the risk, I wouldn’t be either.

     
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  12. 11top

    11top Cousin Eddie's cousin

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    There is language on the US Fish and Wildlife site regarding "personal effects," so I retract my earlier statement that personal property has nothing to do with it. The language is somewhat complicated though. I think Peter was on the right track when he said it might be up to the discretion of the border agent. I'd be very nervous carrying a dalbergia piece across the border.
     
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  13. bodia

    bodia Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved

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    Totally agree, to both!
     
  14. 11top

    11top Cousin Eddie's cousin

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    "The new 2017 international regulations don’t apply to non-commercial transportation of guitars and similar instruments, however. This means, at least in theory, that guitarists shouldn’t have problems when carrying their own instruments." (bold emphasis on phrases is mine).

    I got 2 important pieces of info from that. 1) New regulation in 2017, so they must be at least working on trying to improve things, and 2) "at least in theory" doesn't provide the comfort level I'm after with an expensive guitar.
     
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  15. bodia

    bodia Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved

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    Yeah, I think individual border agents would be a concern, and also what country I was going to. That whole "passport" thing was passed back in 2013, and I think it was a couple of years before "they" got around to creating it.
     
  16. bodia

    bodia Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved

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    Think you could do it "mule" style? You know, stick it in a condom and swallow it before you cross the border? :D
     
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  17. Alnus Rubra

    Alnus Rubra Loving nature’s wonders

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    Ouch! :confused:
     
  18. dmatthews

    dmatthews Dave's not here...

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    So what's better...
    Buying a guitar with RW from the States and getting it shipped to Canada, or getting it shipped to my PO box across the border and going and picking it up?
    Too bad the choices up here are a smaller number otherwise local shopping would be obvious.
     
  19. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc Plugged In.

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    That warehouse with the Archon, I presume...
     
  20. Rusty Chos

    Rusty Chos Don’t mean a thang if it don’t twang

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    Swallowing it might be a stretch, but the other option would REALLY be a stretch!
     
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