Moving Countries and Made for USA Only BRW guitars

Jo-

f-hole lover
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Connnecticut, USA
If I was to move from the US to go back to the UK would it be possible to get some sort of license or pay a fee to be able to move my “For USA Only” Brazilian guitars with me?
I’m starting to realize that I’ve gathered a few nice Brazzy guitars and I would hate to have to lose/sell them.

I also have a couple older BRW fretboard guitars that I got before they started putting that designation on them. I presume that these would also fall under the same CITES treaty laws.

Is there a legal way I would be able to keep these guitars?
 
From my little knowledge importing to the EU you would need a document from PRS or the dealer you bought the guitar from that states the origin of the used wood and a certification number from the environmental department (I guess that is the US wildlife service in the USA?).
With these you can apply for an export document and you have also have to apply for an import document in the UK .

Unless you have a document that states the origin of the brazilian rosewood either as pre convention or the certification number of the original import document I suppose it will be hard to get the guitar back to the UK.

But I am no expert, it's just the way it worked for me by importing to Germany.

I would try to contact PRS and see, if they have documentary, or maybe an advice if it is somehow possible to convince the US Wildlife service, that the wood used was pre convention and therefore can get new documents.

As stated above, no expert on this, so, no guarantee :)
 
Great question. I wonder how that would apply to something like furniture, as well. How do you get a nice table that is on the protected list, to the country you're moving to?
 
Great question. I wonder how that would apply to something like furniture, as well. How do you get a nice table that is on the protected list, to the country you're moving to?
I'm sure jurisdictions are different, but an uncle collected a bunch of nice wood thinking he would build stuff out of it when he retired. He planned to move back to Canada and ship the stuff here. Not allowed, so he bought equipment where he was, set up shop and turned it all into furniture before he came back here with it.
 
If I was to move from the US to go back to the UK would it be possible to get some sort of license or pay a fee to be able to move my “For USA Only” Brazilian guitars with me?
I’m starting to realize that I’ve gathered a few nice Brazzy guitars and I would hate to have to lose/sell them.

I also have a couple older BRW fretboard guitars that I got before they started putting that designation on them. I presume that these would also fall under the same CITES treaty laws.

Is there a legal way I would be able to keep these guitars?
I think you have a decent chance off getting it into the UK. Germany would be very low odds.

I suspect that if you ask the question before moving, the answer is likely to be no. Your odds of getting the correct paperwork via PRS are very low. They started marking things USA Only because the paperwork was too demanding. I've never had an issue with a guitar I've transported myself, but I've never carried 5 Brazilian pieces at the same time.
 
I contradict the statement of German low odds, because perhaps Germany is still part of EU regulations - Great Britain has since Brexit only their national law.

Around 2014 (or so) Germany even put up higher standards of control of endangered species, which don't fall under CITES I (talking about wood: dalbergia nigra or Brazialian rosewood), but under CITES II (wood: other rosewood species, ebony).
For example all owners of instruments with wooden parts falling under CITES II must register their belongings at the local offices with their evironmental protection departments. Mentioning time of purchase, and best proven correct by submitting a copy of the bill.
In return you received a letter of confirmation.

A few years later German federal states lowered tje respective regulations concerning CITES II: No registration needed.
But CITES I high pretection standards are still vivid.
Selling CITES I goods is under high rules within Germany, and the rules are much higher in terms of import/export (even for private persons). You need permission by federal states own ministries of environment or in some circumstances at least by the federal ministry of environment.
 
Undoubtedly you could ask this question on all the musical instrument sites and get the whole spectrum of "possible" responses.

I also have a couple older BRW fretboard guitars that I got before they started putting that designation on them. I presume that these would also fall under the same CITES treaty laws.
If you can prove they were made prior to the CITES I ban being implemented, they are grandfathered in, AFAIK. You need to show the serial number matching a production year, etc. There is a "musical instrument certificate” from USFWS you can get for such instruments, but it is intended for instruments returning to the US, not permanent exports.

I suspect the "totally by the books" answer is "Get an export permit and an import permit" for each instrument.

How you get those permits is the tougher nut to crack, because it requires "proof" the wood is pre-ban and the proof needs proof it is accurate, etc.

Frankly, it might not be worth the hassle.

Which annoys me, because I have a couple of nice Brazzy-content guitars, and that means they wouldn't follow me if I moved to another country.

The rule/law is stupid, because it impacts everyday people far more than it does the smugglers, who I am sure manage to get illegally harvested wood snuck into places all the time (probably mostly China at this stage). Along with Pangolin scales, bear paws, meth, coke, and all the other contraband that is far more valuable and/or dangerous than my 2007/2013 (or whatever) McSoapy Brazzy.
 
The rule/law is stupid, because it impacts everyday people far more than it does the smugglers, who I am sure manage to get illegally harvested wood snuck into places all the time (probably mostly China at this stage). Along with Pangolin scales, bear paws, meth, coke, and all the other contraband that is far more valuable and/or dangerous than my 2007/2013 (or whatever) McSoapy Brazzy.
The CITES Treaty is one of the many legal solutions passed with the best of intentions that winds up screwing people who also have good intentions.

A blanket ban is like the old Prohibition law; it doesn't accomplish what it's supposed to, and hurts people whose use of the banned wood is marginal, like guitar makers and buyers.

I'd say it fails on a lot of levels. Wasn't thought through fully.
 
Selling CITES I goods is under high rules within Germany, and the rules are much higher in terms of import/export (even for private persons). You need permission by federal states own ministries of environment or in some circumstances at least by the federal ministry of environment.

Just to add: this is not a special case in Germany, I have dealt with the same rules and documentary (which btw has been ratified by the EU in accordance to CITES which a lot of countries in the world comply to) so far with goods imported/exported from these countries:

China
Switzerland
Czech Republic
Poland
Slovakia


Checking for the UK, you need the exact paperwork, as in Germany or any other EU country and most countries which are complying to CITES listings:


That doesn't mean that some countries may have a tighter monitoring than others. But basically, selling, importing or exporting CITES I listed goods without paperwork is basically not legal in most countries and for good reason in my opinion. Owning the piece is not illegal.

I can fully understand that this is quite frustrating for the OP. From my experience with the local environmental department, they were very willing to help in any way. They even offered one time to accept a testimony from a witness to verify the legality of purchase of Brazilian Rosewood and prepared all needed paperwork for commercial use.
Therefore, I would just contact the responsible department of the country, where the goods are exported to and see, if they may have a solution or had similar cases before and know what to do.

I do not believe they would register your name on a blacklist and immediately seize you at the airport when you enter the country and check you for guitars :)

I would also contact the US Wildlife department and see, what their experience is. I mean, musicians are still using instruments with CITES I listed materials on a professional bassis for touring around the world (although most of them were made before the CITES I listing came into effect) so they must have experience with such cases.
Besides, at least in Germany we have officially approved experts who offer the service of examination of such pieces and are able to provide the needed documents after they have given their approval. This is common for vintage guitars, maybe such services are offered in the US as well?
 
Per my job as a Moderator, I feel I must step in...

Just how well do we know this guy?

As someone who you've known much longer, someone who's actually been to your home, I think they would be much more secure at my house...

And yes, I'm pulling rank! :p
That’s a thought. And I could just take your tigers eye HB to keep me company.
 
Per my job as a Moderator, I feel I must step in...

Just how well do we know this guy?

As someone who you've known much longer, someone who's actually been to your home, I think they would be much more secure at my house...

And yes, I'm pulling rank! :p

Don't do it, Jo! He's already announced his plan to move to an undisclosed address, and then your guitars will be gone forever!
 
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