Amps, Settings, Tone & Other Stuff

[László]

Let me start off by acknowledging that everyone's belief as to what is 'good tone' varies. Well, the term, varies, seems to put it mildly. I hear tones that sound like One Billion Buzzing Bees from some of my friends, and they love it, and look at me and say, "Isn't this amp sounding great?"

And all I can do is say, "Well, my taste runs to a more...um...different kind of thing." I'm sure they feel the same way when they hear me play.

One of my jazzer friends was over at my place recently, and I said, "This HXDA has great clean tones, check it out." After playing about as clean as I could stand it, he said, "Yeah, the amp sounds awesome. So when are you gonna play the clean tones you were talking about?"

I guess I'm that guy who sets his amp to Billion Buzzing Bees to this jazz guy. OK.

So it's subjective, it's personal, it's everyone's individual ears. And yet, many of us find certain recordings stellar examples of what makes up good tone, and we can often agree on how good they sound. Which leads me to wonder, if they're hearing the same thing I'm hearing on those recordings, how can they possibly want to dial in their amps to sound like One Billion Buzzing Bees?

I mean, if you and I can agree that, say, "The Wind Cries Mary," by Hendrix is one of the greatest clean tones ever put on a record, and that, say, Duane Allman's tone on "Live at the Fillmore" is one of the best medium gain tones ever recorded, and that perhaps Dave Grohl's tone on his recent records is a fantastic high gain tone, how is it that you set your amp to a Billion Buzzing Bees, and I think I set mine to something that's a whole heckuva lot closer to those same records we both agree on?

I never tire of marveling over this difference.

Is something wrong with one of our sets of ears, or is the problem in how we interpret what we're hearing inside our brains, or what?

Granted, some folks just buy the wrong amps. I have a close friend who has done session work for me, and while he can afford to buy whatever he wants, and is a terrific player when I make him play through my amps on a session, he always seems to choose some bargain, off-brand amp and guitar because he can't resist what he considers a good deal. His tone absolutely sounds like garbage to me, but he seems thrilled with it.

"Listen to this amp, can you believe it was only $300?"

I can then respond with, "I certainly can," which I'm thinking will hurt his feelings, or I can say, "It's certainly a bargain!" So I generally say, "It's certainly a bargain."

It's kind of a sin by omission to refrain from saying, "Actually, it sounds awful." But I try to be more of a diplomat in person...I mean, it's not really my business to tell someone they sound like a Billion Buzzing Bees, is it? Or that their amp sounds like cardboard clean?

So what I'm about to do is state Les' First Rule Of Tone When Setting Up An Amp For Recording, and when you consider the validity of this rule, please understand that Your Mileage May Vary Because Your Idea Of What Sounds Good May Be Different From Mine.

Here goes:

Les' First Rule Of Tone For Recording:

There's a potential balance that exists between the preamp section and the power amp section of your amp. Achieving this balance matters. Turn Down The God-Damned Gain and Turn Up The Master Volume And Find That Balance.

Your recordings will thank you. I will also thank you. Have a good day!

 

[rugerpc]

I'm with you all the way on this, Les.

That One Billion Buzzing Bees tone for me is Ice Pick In The Ear by setting the treble too high.

Maybe the gain control should be renamed OBBB and the treble control renamed IPITE.

100% serious.

 

[László]

I'm with you all the way on this, Les.

That One Billion Buzzing Bees tone for me is Ice Pick In The Ear by setting the treble too high.

Maybe the gain control should be renamed OBBB and the treble control renamed IPITE.

100% serious.

And I 100% agree with you!

Part of the problem, IMO, lies in folks not hearing the treble coming from their amps the way the audience (or the mic) does, when they set the controls.

If you're standing up and your ears are above the speaker cab while setting up the amp, your ears are not in the area where the speaker projects. You're hearing room reflections mostly.

To set the treble on an amp, one has to have one's ears about level with the speaker cab, or at least in that area where the speaker truly projects directionally -- as we know, treble is very directional because higher frequency wavelengths are short. There's very little omnidirectIonality with treble, as there is with bass with its long wavelengths.

That doesn't mean you put your ear next to the speaker at volume of course, but it's a good idea to at least sit down several feet from the front of the cab, and at least listen to what you've dialed in from the audience's (or the microphone's) perspective!

If most players did that, the world would certainly be a better place to listen to music, because an awful lot of guitar players would turn down that treble control!

And to take it one step further in the OBBB category, increasing the treble increases those very frequencies where the bees live.... so that's something to watch out for as well.

 

[rugerpc]

My main amp at this point is a Hughes and Kettner Trilogy into a 4x12 cab. I sit to play - that puts me in direct line with the upper 2 speaker cones. I hear what a well placed mic would hear.

 

[László]

My main amp at this point is a Hughes and Kettner Trilogy into a 4x12 cab. I sit to play - that puts me in direct line with the upper 2 speaker cones. I hear what a well placed mic would hear.

Yup, that is exactly the way to do it. Most excellent!

 

[dkilpatrick]

I usually start on the clean channel with all settings at noon and then start tweaking from there moving from left to right on most amps.
Gain sits somewhere between 11 and 1
Treble typically stays at noon
Mid up slightly at 1
Bass moves between 11:30 and 1 depending on what size cab I'm playing through
Presence at 1
And then master at whatever level is comfortable for the room.
I find you don't have to move the eq to the extreme in any direction to dial in the amp and get a great tone out of it.
You can then use pedals in front to contour the tone more towards the style you're playing.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

...Dave Grohl's tone on his recent records is a fantastic high gain tone...

You mean, since he got The Desk?

(wanders off to listen to Sonic Highways...)

 

[Rider1260]

To me you have to set an amp to play along with something ( band , track etc ) just setting your sound to nothing seems pointless how your sound sits in the mix is way more important that how you guitar sound when you are sitting in front of it.
Might my sound be a bit bright when recorded ALONE yes but add a TRACK or band and its big and full but cuts thru the mix and can be heard without being 130db
As a general rule I play pretty quite or as low as I can and get a good tone for the room I am in, I find that when I play with less level I can work the guitar harder and be more expressive in my playing

 

[andy474x]

Finding an amp with a good EQ balance, as well as good gain character, is a chore.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I don't really believe in "good tone" or "bad tone", I kinda classify tone in terms of appropriateness and preference.

People's perception of "good tone" is directly related to the music they enjoy, which is to say it's completely subjective.

I mean, if you and I can agree that, say, "The Wind Cries Mary," by Hendrix is one of the greatest clean tones ever put on a record, and that, say, Duane Allman's tone on "Live at the Fillmore" is one of the best medium gain tones ever recorded, and that perhaps Dave Grohl's tone on his recent records is a fantastic high gain tone...

See, I don't care for the music that any of those dudes made/make. I can respect them, their contributions to music, and agree that (two of them) were amazing guitar players, but since their music doesn't motivate me in a positive way... We will never agree that those are the greatest or best tones. And that's totally cool. We just like different stuff.

I feel there are a ton of bands and songs that benefit from having what the majority of people would call "bad tone".
I mean, I won't make a list of who would sound "better" or "worse" if they adhered to the list of tones you mentioned because.. that'd be a huge list!

I believe that even the "angry bee's" tone has a style of music where not only is it appropriate, but it is actually preferable to sounding like Foo Fighters. IMHO,YMMV, etc..

 

[László]

See, I don't care for the music that any of those dudes made/make..

You missed the point completely. You got hung up on whether you like the examples instead of understanding WHY the point of the comparison was made.

I was just using them as an example of sounds people might agree were good ones to show that even whey they agree, they're not going to set their amps up the same way.

To show, apropos of your point, that good tone is subjective. And I said so.

So I started out by saying, "if we can agree that, say, Hendrix..." etc. had good tone on this or that song...

The idea is that even if the theoretical people would agree that a particular tone is a good tone, they're still going to set their amps up differently, and often, one of them is likely to do it terribly enough that they're going to get a bad tone as far as I, Les, am concerned. There was also a little HUMOR involved and some SARCASM involved. That you missed.

As far as you, Serg, are concerned, it's OK to get the buzzing bees and that's fine just don't make me listen to your record, 'cause then I'm gonna have to lie and tell you that it was good when it actually sounded terrible and I couldn't finish listening to the first tune, let alone the whole thing.

But these are MY rules of good recorded tone, not yours, so I don't really care what you think sounds great or not.

And my point is that even if those same two people say, "Yeah, that's a great tone," and set their amps up to get that same tone, they're gonna do it differently. This is not, repeat not, about whether those players have great tone.

In fact, whether those examples are good or bad to you, it doesn't matter at all, because we haven't agreed that they're good, nor have we set up our amps to sound like them.

So the Foo Fighters were merely listed as an example of a band two people MIGHT agree had good tone. Same with the others.

Sure, it can be fun to find a tone that's nominally strange, and in the right context it's cool. E-Pro from Beck's Guero, with its broken fuzz thing might be such an example...and I said MIGHT, OK? Get it now?

Then again, honestly, I do not care if you disagree with my examples, because the point of the examples was that PEOPLE HEAR THINGS DIFFERENTLY AND TONE IS SUBJECTIVE. AND I SAID SO! Here's a quote from my original post. I would appreciate it if you'd read the damn thing before commenting!

"So what I'm about to do is state Les' First Rule Of Tone When Setting Up An Amp For Recording, and when you consider the validity of this rule, please understand that Your Mileage May Vary Because Your Idea Of What Sounds Good May Be Different From Mine."

I hope that's cleared up now.

 

[László]

You mean, since he got The Desk?

(wanders off to listen to Sonic Highways...)

No, I was merely using his work as an EXAMPLE of tones people MIGHT agree on. I know nothing of The Desk. I just was using him as an example because a lot of my clients specifically love the Foo Fighters tone, and have asked for something like it on tracks.

However, Dave Grohl did teach my son's bandmate Noah how to play drums when Noah was a little guy. So I will always like him for that.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

I know nothing of The Desk.

I highly recommend watching the movie, Sound City -- it's a fun movie for people who enjoy behind-the-scenes/making-of type stuff of music-making. It's about the studio that made some of the greatest sounding records of all time. Anyway, he bought the Neve mixing console from there in 2011 ish, so not sure if Wasting Light was recorded on it.

 

[rugerpc]

I highly recommend watching the movie, Sound City -- it's a fun movie for people who enjoy behind-the-scenes/making-of type stuff of music-making. It's about the studio that made some of the greatest sounding records of all time. Anyway, he bought the Neve mixing console from there.

I strongly second this!

 

[sergiodeblanc]

You missed the point completely. You got hung up on whether you like the examples instead of understanding WHY the point of the comparison was made.

I was just using them as an example of sounds people might agree were good ones to show that even whey they agree, they're not going to set their amps up the same way.

To show, apropos of your point, that good tone is subjective. And I said so.

So I started out by saying, "if we can agree that, say, Hendrix..." etc. had good tone on this or that song...

The idea is that even if the theoretical people would agree that a particular tone is a good tone, they're still going to set their amps up differently, and often, one of them is likely to do it terribly enough that they're going to get a bad tone as far as I, Les, am concerned. There was also a little HUMOR involved and some SARCASM involved. That you missed.

As far as you, Serg, are concerned, it's OK to get the buzzing bees and that's fine just don't make me listen to your record, 'cause then I'm gonna have to lie and tell you that it was good when it actually sounded terrible and I couldn't finish listening to the first tune, let alone the whole thing, so as not to hurt your feelings!

But these are MY rules of good recorded tone, not yours, so I don't really care what you think sounds great or not.

And my point is that even if those same two people say, "Yeah, that's a great tone," and set their amps up to get that same tone, they're gonna do it differently. This is not, repeat not, about whether those players have great tone.

In fact, whether those examples are good or bad to you, it doesn't matter at all, because we haven't agreed that they're good, nor have we set up our amps to sound like them.

So the Foo Fighters were merely listed as an example of a band two people MIGHT agree had good tone. Same with the others.

Sure, it can be fun to find a tone that's nominally strange, and in the right context it's cool. E-Pro from Beck's Guero, with its broken fuzz thing might be such an example...and I said MIGHT, OK? Get it now?

Then again, honestly, I do not care if you disagree with my examples, because the point of the examples was that PEOPLE HEAR THINGS DIFFERENTLY AND TONE IS SUBJECTIVE. AND I SAID SO! Here's a quote from my original post. I would appreciate it if you'd read the damn thing before commenting!

"So what I'm about to do is state Les' First Rule Of Tone When Setting Up An Amp For Recording, and when you consider the validity of this rule, please understand that Your Mileage May Vary Because Your Idea Of What Sounds Good May Be Different From Mine."

Dial it back a bit, buddy. I wasn't attacking you, I was agreeing with you and trying to add that it's because of all of our (meaning everybody's cumulative) preferences, that people will set their amps/effects up differently to try to reach a similar outcome.

I think people do hear things differently, and I think it's because of all the things they like and all of the things they don't like.

I guess I'm not explaining myself very well, but you don't need to be all f@cking aggro about it.

 

[László]

I highly recommend watching the movie, Sound City -- it's a fun movie for people who enjoy behind-the-scenes/making-of type stuff of music-making. It's about the studio that made some of the greatest sounding records of all time. Anyway, he bought the Neve mixing console from there in 2011 ish, so not sure if Wasting Light was recorded on it.

I've seen that movie. Didn't know Grohl bought the console - might have forgotten it if I knew at one point.

Though...it's a Neve console, I've worked on plenty of them over the years, and in fact had a Neve summing mixer and Neve outboard a few years back before...before...I succumbed to the dark side, got into...um....plugins...and...uh....bought a guitar and amp with the um....proceeds.......



Edit: Then again, I don't think he gets his guitar tone from the console. Whether one likes, or dislikes (like Serg) the tone is not important. But the board doesn't have much to do with it, you can only do so much with EQ and a mic preamp.

 

[László]

I think people do hear things differently, and I think it's because of all the things they like and all of the things they don't like.

I guess I'm not explaining myself very well, but you don't need to be all f@cking aggro about it.

OK.

I'm still not listening to your One Billion Buzzing Bees record, though. I mean, there are limits. A man has to keep his dignity.

 

[alantig]

I highly recommend watching the movie, Sound City -- it's a fun movie for people who enjoy behind-the-scenes/making-of type stuff of music-making. It's about the studio that made some of the greatest sounding records of all time. Anyway, he bought the Neve mixing console from there in 2011 ish, so not sure if Wasting Light was recorded on it.

I third it - this is a great behind the scenes doc. And I love the in-studio stuff - always have.

Sticking w/the Foos, there's another doc about them recording Wasting Light and Grohl buying the desk - shows the installation and everything. There's a history, too. The coolest moment, at least for me, was Grohl recording a solo, and his daughter comes in and grabs his arm while he's playing, and he doesn't miss a note. She said, "You said we could go swimming!!!" And he said, "I have to finish this first." Still playing, as I remember it. Just a gorgeous moment.

There are tons of these things that I just love. Metallica's "Year And A Half In The Life Of", Queen's "Magic Years". And so on. The Classic Album series is a gold mine to me.

 

[Boogie]

Turn Down The God-Damned Gain and Turn Up The Master Volume And Find That Balance.

In the immortal words of the wise, "DUH!". The judges would have also accepted, "no DOY!". Because, even if you're shooting for OBBB tone, you want to shoot for the best. Starting low and working up is always a sound strategy. Even with a Mesa/Boogie.

As a tangent, after reviewing some total shite videos of one our recent performances, even in small venues, I can turn up more. By having the cab on an angled stand and me being in front of it most of the time, there is no laser beam of death. And in the recorded mix, I need more treble, which scares me. Otherwise, I'm just not cutting thru the mix with enough articulation. Granted, a better sound system would probably yield the same results at lower SPL.

 

[László]

Starting low and working up is always a sound strategy. Even with a Mesa/Boogie.

+1

I've had quite a few really nice Mesas over the years, and I've never quite understood the criticism that they have a very narrow "set it and forget it" sweet spot. Granted, something like the HXDA might have a more flexible architecture, but I've always found Mesas very adaptable.

I've also never gotten the "hard to dial in" criticism. To me, they're among the easiest amps to dial in a good tone with. Heck you can usually set the dials to 12 o'clock and find some good tones before even experimenting!

Though I've posted about how I like to try out a new amp (or even a recording EQ, etc.), sweeping through each control's entire range to see how it affects the gain and frequency spectrum. You really can learn a lot about the amp that way, instead of just starting with all the dials in the middle and doing tiny tweaks. Turn those dials, boys, the amp won't break.