Three reasons why SE's beat all the other imports

[László]

Dazco, the only point you made originally that I disagree with is that you did clearly state that expensive guitars don't have scarf joints.

My point about Taylor is that they make expensive guitars with scarf joints, which has nothing at all to do with whether I like how they sound.

I've had some Taylors, but it was before they came out with the NT neck with the scarf joints. However, I played the later ones, and I don't think the later necks with scarf jointed headstocks sound any different from the same model Taylors I had with one piece necks. At some point I realized that I preferred other guitars to Taylors.

But it's interesting how the mind works.

I was really into Collings acoustic guitars for a long time, and owned two before I switched to the PRS acoustics. I argued many times with Taylor owners that Collings was proof that a traditional neck design with a dovetail joint was superior to the bolt ons Taylor was using.

That is, until someone kindly pointed out that Collings uses a hybrid version of the bolt on neck! Did I ever feel ignorant! Just goes to show that one's assumptions can interfere with the operation of one's grey matter.

I share your feeling that I'd prefer a neck without a scarf jointed headstock. However it's probably like the thing about the bolt-on neck v the dovetail joint -- a matter of mental gymnastics.

Your preferences, like anyone's, are neither right nor wrong. No need to go to war over them.

I like that you're passionate about your SEs.

 

[Tag]

I guess I am the odd man out, but the SE line does absolutely nothing for me. I would not even know they are PRSs when playing them in person. The ones I have played have an awful metallic sound that I just could not dial out, unlike the core line that have a natural woody tone I cant dial out. Some of the low line Epis sound really good to me, and some of the art core Ibanez sound totally amazing.

 

[JStarr]

I guess I am the odd man out, but the SE line does absolutely nothing for me. I would not even know they are PRSs when playing them in person. The ones I have played have an awful metallic sound that I just could not dial out, unlike the core line that have a natural woody tone I cant dial out. Some of the low line Epis sound really good to me, and some of the art core Ibanez sound totally amazing.

I've never played an EPI Les Paul that didn't feel like a complete turd... at least for my taste. You can "dial out" a sub par sounding guitar with a pickup upgrade.

 

[NomadMike]

I had the same feelings toward the SE as Tag, but given that when I tried them it was a few years back and they were also the usual mistreated guitars that you see at big box music sellers. I'd like to try the new Santana and Bernie, but I'm really liking the 25 scale necks these days.

 

[Tag]

I've never played an EPI Les Paul that didn't feel like a complete turd... at least for my taste. You can "dial out" a sub par sounding guitar with a pickup upgrade.

I kind of agree in that I have never played a low line any brand LP style guitar that did not sound like a complete "turd". The epis I have dug were the hollow and semi hollows. Some have sounded downright amazing. Others so so. Ibanez really seems to have the low cost models down, and they seem to sound fantastic across the board to my ear. YMMV, and I am not generally an Ibanez fan at all.

 

[Raymond]

Taylor makes their guitars headstock by cutting the wood and glue it at an angle, that's even on the flagship series. There is nothing wrong with it when done right.

 

[Tag]

Taylor makes their guitars headstock by cutting the wood and glue it at an angle, that's even on the flagship series.

UGGH!!!!! Later for that!!! :biggrin:

 

[leeasam]

Well, I'm not going to debate this any longer because unless face to face it could go on forever trying to explain it in type. But all i need from you is to just answer my question. 2 guitars, both exactly the same except one has a SJ. Same price, everything. Which will you buy? Your answer will either show you agree with the original point i was making or you don't. If you want the one that jointed then a wanna know why Paul doesn't use that on the core models. Maybe he can answer you better than I.

it depends on tone. the scarf with be a stronger joint than the solid. this has been proven in pressure test to breaking point. not sure what Taylor you had but i have never heard a china made acoustic that can come close to my Taylor. I heard decent ones for the money but none good enough that I would own as my main acoustic. I have played ALOT of different brands of Asian models. none of them have any bottom end and most are thin sounding.

 

[Raymond]

Give this a watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HHIl1ggQls

 

[NomadMike]

Something about efficient use of materials just appeals to me.

 

[nicolasrivera]

You may be right, but for me PRS isn't about only the quality of thier imports, it's the PRS design, specifically the elements that make them sound and play the way they do. They're quite unique and the way they feel/play/sound is to me what makes them so desirable to me. The quality is just icing on the cake, but to be honest if the quality was at Epiphone levels i'd still be raving about my santana because it's the design. One thing i learned long ago, particularly from building partscasters is that design trumps everything else even quality. I'd take a mediocre quality guitar of the design/wood type that makes for the best sound and feel every time over one thats top quality but with bad design. Well, bad to me anyway. Take carvin for example. There are no higher quality guitars made IMO. Living near thier hollywood store (which just closed) i've had the opportunity to see and play them for years. But tho they are absolute top quality, tier designs and wood choices are such that they sound sterile and just plain yuk. Granted in recent years they've improved a lot in that area, but much too late to overshadow the bad rep they got from years of maple bodied neck thru's with ebony boards and other such tonally weird recipes.

Point is, take a squier classic vibe....quality is several leagues below carvin but they are proven designs and people have flocked to them and rave about them. And it's the PRS design that drew me in. The 24.5 scale that most of the SE's use makes playing easy and tone fat yet still clear. The neck with a 10" radius with a wide board is a recipe i never see anyone else use and it made for the first and only neck i have ever played that wasn't real thin that i can not only play well on, but BETTER on. That was a shocker. And the #1 thing about it that just floors me every time is the way it sits in a mix. No guitar i've owned in all my years has done that nearly as well, and i still can't figure out how it does that ! So yeah, the sterlings may be made as well. But to me thats just icing on the cake with the PRS SE. Its an amazing design that no one else has combined with quality construction at a unbelievably stupid price ! I now have what i feel is probably my fav electric i've owned in 40 years and i paid 500 bucks for it !!! Sterlings may be made as well, but they are a very opposite design and the chances they would do what i love about the PRS as well or better are slim to none.

But thats just me. If sterling's designs, which are much more based in the fender camp than PRS which is more gibson, were more gibosn like then who knows. But still it's the uniqueness of the scale length and neck design and other things that make the PRS so amazing for me. So nothing else is going to do it for me like PRS regardless of quality. If you simply want a fender style vibe/tone, then a sterling will likely be better than PRS to you. But then again, if i want that i go right to fender.

Sure, but i thought we where talking about import quality and not design! Yes design is so important and unfortunately not even PRS can do all the sounds, as much as i tried with me PRS single coils to make it sound like my Stratocastrs it can't!, comes close, yes, but the design of the Strat has that magic twang.

The Sterling is very different in design from a PRS SE, but both have their place in the sonic spectrum. Now in build quality they are practically identical and i give kudos to music man for achieving this at a lower price point!.

 

[NomadMike]

The quality is just icing on the cake,

In my world good execution of a good design always results in good quality, they are not three separate things.
A good design takes manufacturing or building into consideration.

 

[László]

Give this a watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HHIl1ggQls

I watched the whole thing, and I'm kind of sorry I did!

Like watching sausages get made, as far as I'm concerned. Which I once did, and afterward swore off meat for two years.

Please allow me to pretend that there are artisans tapping wood for tone and combining just the right stuff in the right way, to make a great instrument. Yes I know that doesn't really happen any more!

 

[Duffy]

Probably a good thing. Please do me a favor in the future. Read my entire post as I did yours and every other post I intend to reply to on this forum. It is the respectful thing to do. Replying to my post without having read it is like reading texts on your phone while we talk face to face - it's just rude.

I am with Ruger on this.

I think it is only right to read the post that you are going to feedback on. Not to do so is "dismissing" the value of the persons post as less than getting your complete attention. It is a sort of insult to state that you just skimmed over it, paying it only cursory attention, and then feeding back on it with a follow up comment.

It is a small matter that can very simply be accommodated when making reply posts. Give the other person the a break. Read their whole post and evaluate it with a serious mind before commenting on it.

We can all do this type of thing and it will make the forum stronger.

 

[Raymond]

I watched the whole thing, and I'm kind of sorry I did!

Like watching sausages get made, as far as I'm concerned. Which I once did, and afterward swore off meat for two years.

Please allow me to pretend that there are artisans tapping wood for tone and combining just the right stuff in the right way, to make a great instrument. Yes I know that doesn't really happen any more!

haha, I can see what you mean but i actually like it.

I don't think Paul and Bob is that much different to each other. They both started a relatively young company and both want to make a guitar that is quality and stands out. Both company continues to innovate. PRS with their V12 finishes, Taylor with their electro static way of applying a thin finish. PRS with their snazzy 408 pick ups and Taylor with their expression system. Then there is the NT necks, their own relieve route, the list goes on. People like Gibson and Martin just keep making historic reissues instead!

I am sure the wood matching and selection still are done by hand. You can even pick out the pieces yourselve but the actual construction process now is very streamlined and automated.

 

[Tag]

haha, I can see what you mean but i actually like it.

I don't think Paul and Bob is that much different to each other. They both started a relatively young company and both want to make a guitar that is quality and stands out. Both company continues to innovate. PRS with their V12 finishes, Taylor with their electro static way of applying a thin finish. PRS with their snazzy 408 pick ups and Taylor with their expression system. Then there is the NT necks, their own relieve route, the list goes on. People like Gibson and Martin just keep making historic reissues instead!

I am sure the wood matching and selection still are done by hand. You can even pick out the pieces yourselve but the actual construction process now is very streamlined and automated.

I am all for innovation when it works, and I know its subjective, but I still hear and feel nitro as trumping V12, and I have yet to hear any taylor sound as good as a similarly priced Martin. Gibson historics sound killer for the most part, and are what almost all other electrics are compared to. I say this in a totally friendly manner, and I hope it come across as such. I know taylor makes a very high quality guitar, and of course PRS is my favorite electric guitars, regardless of price.

 

[Raymond]

I prefer the sound of a Taylor myself but tone is subjective.

 

[Desperado]

I've never played an EPI Les Paul that didn't feel like a complete turd... at least for my taste. You can "dial out" a sub par sounding guitar with a pickup upgrade.

The Epi LP tribute plus is probably the best of the regular line and whilst it's a nice guitar, the SE range are still miles ahead.

The thing that surprised me the most was how solid they feel. Most lower end guitars have a cheap feel but not in the case of the SE, these feel like 'real' instruments and not the cheap import guitars like many out there.

I'm yet to play a guitar around the SE's price point that is better than the SE, this includes USA made Gibsons.

 

[László]

I don't think Paul and Bob is that much different to each other.

Yes, in many ways, and yet not so much in others. I've seen a lot of Bob's videos, and of course I still get Wood and Steel, though I haven't bought a Taylor in a while, but I do read it.

Bob seems obsessed with his processes; not just with getting every last ounce out of his materials, but with his machinery, his business activities, his automation, and so on. He's the Henry Ford of acoustic guitar making. Bob asks, "How can we make our nice guitars faster with less waste?"

Bob rarely talks about tone any more, or writes about it.

I'm sure Paul knows all that process stuff, and uses the best of it, but his interests seem to be directed more to sound, tone, etc. When he gives a talk, it's about how his woods, his processes, and so on make the guitar sound better; Paul asks, "How can we make our guitars better guitars?"

Example:

When Bob talks finishes, he talks about how his electrostatically applied UV finishes cure quickly and make the process of building faster (though lately he also talks about the environment in connection with this).

When Paul talks about his finishes, he talks about their affect on the tone of the guitar. Period.

On Friday I had to stop into GC to pick up a Sennheiser 421 mic for a project. My regular sales guy was on the phone with a customer, and I wanted him to have the sale, so I meandered into the acoustic guitar room.

They had several high end Martins, Taylors and Gibsons in there (it's a Platinum GC), and while they mostly sounded very good -- both my former production PRS Tonare Grand and my current PS one are very clearly superior instruments for my purposes. Really, heads and shoulders better for me.

I was a bit surprised by the Martins, as I think they've caught up to the Taylors for playability, and they sounded great; I think I preferred them to the Taylors. The Gibsons were also surprisingly good - for a while they sounded a bit dodgy as far as I was concerned, but I heard improvement up and down the line.

Still, none held a candle to my PRS. Not even close.

And that, I think, typifies the difference between Paul and Bob. Bob's pretty happy with where he's at. Paul's constantly outdoing himself.

 

[FennRx]

The SEs are probably the best imports I've played that have come out of S Korea or China. But the Japanese know how to make a guitar! From the 70s Gibson copies to the more recent Epiphone Elitist series. And are we going to include the high end stuff from companies like ESP?