S2 locking tuners - plastic buttons + remove locks?

[sumitagarwal]

Seeing Paul's focus on removing weight from the tuners on the Core models (open-back tuners, removing string locks from non-trem models, and changing to plastic wing buttons from metal) I'm wondering if I can achieve a lot of the same benefit on my S2 Singlecut Standard simply by removing the string lock screws and replacing the metal buttons with the S2 pearloid buttons?

Any insights?

 

[JasonE]

That seems to be in line with his latest statements on the reason for the change in tuners. I can tell you that I put plastic pearloid buttons on my 06 CU22, I did it for the look, I didn't notice any difference in tone or sustain back then. I still have the guitar and was actually considering swapping the buttons back but haven't because I sill like the look of the ones I put on it. Plus it is easier to not do it.

 

[Erick_S]

The low-mass issue, in this context, is mostly marketing. A couple of years ago, PRS switched the tuners on the Core 594s. They went from Gotoh (made in Japan) Phase 3 locking tuners to Han Chang (made in Korea) non-locking tuners. It is about money more than any mass equation. If it was purely mass, all Cores would’ve changed over.

Gotoh Phase 3s are made with cast bodies and aluminum locking collars and machined aluminum buttons.

Han Chang vintage tuners are stamped metal bodies with plastic buttons. Han Chang makes the SE tuners…they are virtually identical to the Core vintage tuners, except for the brass shaft. So PRS is basically “slightly” modified SE tuners on Core guitars.

Why the change? More likely shaving costs rather than shaving mass. Stamped metal is far cheaper than cast metal. Plastic is much, much cheaper than machined aluminum. Korean production is cheaper than Japanese production (note: they aren’t using Gotoh Japanese vintage tuners). Those savings may be a few dollars per each guitar, but, at scale, that saves PRS a lot of money.

The stamped tuners might be light, but I can’t say if, or much, lighter they might be. With that in mind, PRS could have reduced Phase 3 weight by using wooden buttons, as they weigh next to nothing. However, plastic is far cheaper than wood.

If non-locking vintage tuners are “perfect” on the 594, why aren’t they used on all other Core models? They likely calculated that they could get away with cheaper vintage tuners on the 594 by making a “vintage tone” sales pitch to a tolerant customer base. That wouldn’t work with the other Core models, because those buyers want technical precision and innovative, cutting edge construction (that is the sales pitch). Those buyers have no interest in less-evoked “vintage” tech.

PRS uses a similar pitch with the new winged tuners…PRS says they will improve tuning accuracy. That is BS. Gear ratio, above all else, dictates tuning accuracy. Higher ratios require more button turns to complete one post revolution. Thus, higher ratios allow for finer, more accurate adjustments. The higher the ratio, the better the “fine tuning”. 22:1 > 18:1 > 15:1 > etc.

So why the winged button change? Cost. Again, plastic is much cheaper that aluminum. A wider button may be easier to grip, but it does virtually nothing to improve accuracy.

 

[sumitagarwal]

The low-mass issue in this context, is mostly marketing. A couple years ago, PRS switched the tuners on the Core 594s. They went from Gotoh (made in Japan) Phase 3 locking tuners, to Han Chang (made in Korea) non-locking tuners. It is about money more than mass.

Gotoh Phase 3s are made with cast bodies and aluminum locking collars and machined aluminum buttons.

The Han Chang vintage tuners are stamped metal bodies with plastic buttons. Han Chang makes the SE tuners…they are virtually identical to the Core vintage tuners, except for the brass shaft.

Stamped metal is much cheaper than cast metal. Plastic is much, much cheaper than machined aluminum. Those savings, at scale, amount to a lot of money.

The stamped tuners might be light, I don’t know, but PRS could have reduced Phase 3 weight with wooden buttons (they weigh next to nothing), but that is more expensive.

If non-locking is acceptable for 594 vintage tuners, why are all other Core models equipped with locking tuners? They likely reasoned they could get away with cheaper tuners on the 594 with a “vintage tone” sales pitch. That wouldn’t work with the other Cores, because those buyers wouldn’t bite on the vintage pitch.

The same pitch goes with the new winged tuners…PRS says it will improve tuning accuracy. That is mostly BS. Again, plastic is cheaper that aluminum. A wider button is easier to grip, but it does virtually nothing to improve accuracy. Gear ratio, above all else, dictates tuning accuracy. Higher ratios require more button turns to complete one post revolution. Thus, higher ratios allow for finer, more accurate adjustments.l than lower ratios. 22:1 > 18:1 > 15:1 > etc.

I'm not saying that those aren't considerations as well, but from my read of it they are going non-locking for more of the Core guitars, in particular the ones that don't have trems and even the Floyd since that has a locking nut:

Fine Tuning // Introducing New PRS Wing Button Tuners

At PRS, we are known for 'sweating the details' and the updates to our Core lineup for 2024 are a great example of this fine-tuning.

prsguitars.com

PRS Phase III Non-Locking Tuners with Wing Buttons

• Custom 24 “Floyd”
• Hollowbody II Piezo
• Paul’s Guitar

PRS Vintage-Style Non-Locking Tuners with Wing Buttons

• McCarty
• McCarty 594
• McCarty 594 Singlecut
• McCarty 594 Hollowbody II

As a tangent: looking at the changes PRS are making, with the plastic tuner buttons, non-locking tuners, wraparound bridges, P90-esque pickups, I find myself thinking they're drifting towards making modern Les Paul Juniors. Which, of course, were originally built around cost savings! But a lot of people do swear by their playability and tone, a large part of which seems to be the frequent observation that P90's sound better to most people than PAF's.

 

[Veetwin]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[garrett]

PRS have been considering headstock mass for a long time.

Late 90's they went from the heavy AF Schaller winged keys to the lighter Gotoh.

Around '99-'00 they went further and put plastic buttons on them. Non-trem Customs and Standards got non-locking keys. McCarty solid bodies already had Klusons and Hollowbody models already had non-locking Gotoh with ebony buttons.

Of course they later went to Phase II and then on to Phase III, but the point is: What's old is new again. The S2 tuners are already pretty light as-is, so I don't think you'll notice anything, but it could make an interesting $20 experiment and maybe you'll like it better.