Pedal chain help

[dkilpatrick]

I also never thought of Wah before tuner. Looks like I have a little work to do.

A lot of modern wah’s have a separate tuner out to keep it after the wah and out of the main signal chain.

 

[Xtyfighterx]

Just finished building my DIY pedal board

 

[dkilpatrick]

So how would I connect everything then?

This is all preference, but I would set it up as:
Guitar -> wah-> tuner-> compressor -> noise gate with BE-OD in it’s loop-> amp.
Delay and reverb in the amp’s loop.

Also try some other configurations listed above and see which you prefer.

 

[bodia]

A lot of modern wah’s have a separate tuner out to keep it after the wah and out of the main signal chain.

Not on the Buddy Guy Dunlop

 

[dkilpatrick]

Not on the Buddy Guy Dunlop

Nope,
I don’t think that would be considered a modern wah.

 

[Xtyfighterx]

This is all preference, but I would set it up as:
Guitar -> wah-> tuner-> compressor -> noise gate with BE-OD in it’s loop-> amp.
Delay and reverb in the amp’s loop.

Also try some other configurations listed above and see which you prefer.

So BE-OD input goes to the send and output goes to the return on the noise gate. Then then input of the noise gate goes To the compressor and output of the noise gate to the amp head? Correct

 

[dkilpatrick]

So BE-OD input goes to the send and output goes to the return on the noise gate. Then then input of the noise gate goes To the compressor and output of the noise gate to the amp head? Correct

Yes

 

[Xtyfighterx]

Yes

So this does what exactly? Only gates my OD?

 

[Deleted member 5962]

On the comp>OD vs OD>comp. One thing you need to do when asking for suggestions is study the player and the tones they are going for, THEN and only then, apply what they say to what you are going for. We all know Les is more a vintage tone, clean to mid gain player. I am more a classic rock to high gain player. If Les and I suggest different things, then you need to know which is closer to your application and factor that in. It's not that one is right and one is wrong, it's that we generally are going for a bit different things. And that is what makes ALL the difference.

If you want more vintage tones, and your amps are set that way, then you use an OD pedal with it, then you factor that Les gets to play pretty loud at home/studio, then the way he suggests you go, OD>Comp, makes perfect sense. You're already loud. You're already driving the amp. You just want to tame the peaks a bit that the OD is slamming the amp with, so put it after the OD.

If you're playing a really dynamic OD, like the OCD for example, and you like to roll off for clean, then again, OD>Comp works better.

If you're playing the OD as your main tone and just want to tame the peaks a bit, then comp>OD can be better.

The best part, if this sounds unclear, just try both ways and you'll see there are differences and they are totally dependent on your setup/tonal objectives. Playing at lower volumes, or simply wanting to "even out" your playing can make comp>OD better.

 

[László]

On the comp>OD vs OD>comp. One thing you need to do when asking for suggestions is study the player and the tones they are going for, THEN and only then, apply what they say to what you are going for. We all know Les is more a vintage tone, clean to mid gain player. I am more a classic rock to high gain player. If Les and I suggest different things, then you need to know which is closer to your application and factor that in. It's not that one is right and one is wrong, it's that we generally are going for a bit different things. And that is what makes ALL the difference.

If you want more vintage tones, and your amps are set that way, then you use an OD pedal with it, then you factor that Les gets to play pretty loud at home/studio, then the way he suggests you go, OD>Comp, makes perfect sense. You're already loud. You're already driving the amp. You just want to tame the peaks a bit that the OD is slamming the amp with, so put it after the OD.

If you're playing a really dynamic OD, like the OCD for example, and you like to roll off for clean, then again, OD>Comp works better.

If you're playing the OD as your main tone and just want to tame the peaks a bit, then comp>OD can be better.

The best part, if this sounds unclear, just try both ways and you'll see there are differences and they are totally dependent on your setup/tonal objectives. Playing at lower volumes, or simply wanting to "even out" your playing can make comp>OD better.

The thing to keep in mind is that both compressors and overdrives compress the signal. They do it by different means.

Dream Theater is right; it’s a matter of what works for you.

Putting a compressor in front of an overdrive removes the dynamic peaks going into the overdrive, which changes how the OD sounds. Whether that’s good or bad is your call.

Putting the compressor after the OD allows the OD to sound like it sounds normally, and then simply tames the levels. BUT - If your overdrive is noisy, a compressor can make the noise louder, because a compressor both reduces peaks, and makes soft signals louder; noise is usually softer than guitar notes, so you might take that into account in deciding where to put it.

Everything involves tradeoffs in the signal path.

Most players put the compression before overdrive. I don’t, but my overdrives arent noisy, so it isn’t an issue.

In the studio mix world, I like EQ before compression at times, and EQ after compression at other times. There are no rules with this stuff. Do what sounds good!

 

[Xtyfighterx]

The thing to keep in mind is that both compressors and overdrives compress the signal. They do it by different means.

Dream Theater is right; it’s a matter of what works for you.

Putting a compressor in front of an overdrive removes the dynamic peaks going into the overdrive, which changes how the OD sounds. Whether that’s good or bad is your call.

Putting the compressor after the OD allows the OD to sound like it sounds normally, and then simply tames the levels. BUT - If your overdrive is noisy, a compressor can make the noise louder, because a compressor both reduces peaks, and makes soft signals louder; noise is usually softer than guitar notes, so you might take that into account in deciding where to put it.

Everything involves tradeoffs in the signal path.

Most players put the compression before overdrive. I don’t, but my overdrives arent noisy, so it isn’t an issue.

In the studio mix world, I like EQ before compression at times, and EQ after compression at other times. There are no rules with this stuff. Do what sounds good!

So I could do the OD then compressor then noise gate to kill any noise made right? Or is the compression pedal before a noise gate not a good idea.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

It makes it harder to tune the appropriate levels but it's not impossible, depending on how extreme you put the compressor settings.

I also agree with Les -- I am in the dynamic-signal-before-dirt pedals school, because I like the way it sounds, but it is truly a preference thing.

And don't forget to try gate before both compressor and dirt pedal -- just in case it's your guitar that's noisy. That's what I would try first, but that's because I have a lot of EMF in the air around me (apartment).

Note: I haven't used a dirt pedal in months, other than to try out the Eruptor briefly. And I have a Boneshaker I need to try out, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

 

[László]

So I could do the OD then compressor then noise gate to kill any noise made right? Or is the compression pedal before a noise gate not a good idea.

Sure! It’s always a matter of trying various pedal orders out to see what works well with your rig and your hands/ears/brain.

No rules. You can gate a signal before or after effects, the idea being to gate the source of noise. That could be anywhere in your chain.

As you probably know, all a gate does is silence noise below whatever level you set the gate to “close”. When that threshold is reached by a louder signal coming earlier in the chain, the gate opens. The noise comes through at that point, along with the signal, but the signal masks the noise for the most part.

I honestly believe that the best thing to do (if possible) is use gear that doesn’t make noise in the first place, because even with high end studio gates, setting them up can be finicky. Took me a really long time to find the combinations that weren’t noisy but also had the tone I was looking for.

Gain is just another word for volume. With devices that go into high gain, what they’re doing is increasing the volume hitting the circuitry. Increase the volume hitting the circuit, and along with the signal you also increase the noise in the signal. It can’t be helped. This is why gain staging is so important in a studio setting, and equally important in a guitar rig build.

In a studio, you’re mostly dealing with very low noise, like microphone self-noise, or HVAC noises, etc. But guitar pickups are noisy beasts due to their very nature. So the chain tends to be noisy in comparison.

There’s nothing wrong with gating off guitar noise. You just have to remember that it takes a few milliseconds for the gate to transition from closed to open. With a plucked instrument like guitar, the attack of pick or fingers is a big part of the sound. So the faster that gate opens, the better. And that’s the trick to getting it right. One problem with gate circuits in guitar pedals is that you’re not dealing with a big studio box crammed with high end circuitry due to size and expense. So it’s hard to find one that doesn’t suck out some tone.

 

[Xtyfighterx]

I’ll be home tomorrow and starting trying out combos. Defiantly want to take advantage of the effects loop on the pedal.

 

[Deli6505]

I can honestly say that I have never heard of the "wah before the tuner" rule before. I know to put all time=-based effects (ie delay, reverb, flanger, phaser) in the FX loop of the amp but the wah before the tuner? In a strange way, it does make sense but to be honest, I never once put a wah as the first thing on my pedal board. In fact, I also use a Whammy (and lately a Morpheus Bomber) pedal and they always have went after the tuner for me. Works just fine for me.

 

[László]

I can honestly say that I have never heard of the "wah before the tuner" rule before.

It’s not a rule; the most significant difference comes with some good vintage-style wahs, but sometimes it makes no difference at all.

It all depends on the wah, and whether it’s especially sensitive to pickups. I found the Teese and Fulltone wahs seem to work best first in the chain, other wahs seem to not care.

It’s all personal preference.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Agree with a slight amendment to what Les said. It's "mostly" preference. In some cases, there are real electronic reasons for one way or the other.

One of the issues with Wah pedals over the years is that to do their best, they rely on a direct connection to the pickups... no other devices in front of them, in order to sound and work their best. Mike Fuller, colorful gent that he is, has written some interesting things about this, as well as fuzz pedals and the interaction between them. From what I've read, I'd never put (well, OK I would try it maybe, but wouldn't expect it to work well) a buffered pedal in front of the Wah. Given what I've read about them, I probably wouldn't put ANY pedal, TBP or not, in front of a wah, as a "guideline." Read what Mike says about Fuzz and Wah. "Jimi couldn't make it work and neither can you!" LOL That was still on his web site last summer. Haven't looked at that page lately, although I am going back to do some research now that I got the new Clyde Deluxe for Christmas. I'm going to go back and read what I can before I put the Fulltone 69 back on the board. Then I'll have to try it both ways and see what actually works. I intend to create a "Hendrix chain" and a "Trower chain" of pedals to try out. I'll probably try both the new OCD and the Fulldrive 3 in place of the RTO (for the Trower chain). But honestly, my Custom 50 lead channel tones are really "there" so I probably won't even need the OD pedal for Trower stuff.

I know the Hendrix thing will be trickier. Side note: While you also generally never put anything in front of a germanium fuzz (most of them), I've had good luck with my SHO clone in front of them.

 

[gtrdave]

On my board, my wah is first in the chain. I do this so that a) everything that follows is affected by the wah pedal and not the inverse and b) the wah gets 100% of the pickup output.
I then have my comp (always on), overdrive, distortion, all time-based effects (chorus, analog and digital delay, reverb), EH B9, clean boost and then TU-2 tuner and out.
I've tried random orders of pedals over the years and the above order seems to have worked the best. I'm old school and haven't used an effects loop in decades. Too many cables and not enough benefit for me to justify it, so straight through it is.

My board has been an ever-morphing work-in-progress since 1994 when I first started building it and the only pedal that has lasted through the years is the TU-2. Everything else has changed and everything is subject to change because...pedals. I have another dozen+ pedals not in the board and I'm thinking of creating a second pedalboard.

It's madness, but it's fun.

 

[Ovibos]

On my board, my wah is first in the chain. I do this so that a) everything that follows is affected by the wah pedal and not the inverse and b) the wah gets 100% of the pickup output.
I then have my comp (always on), overdrive, distortion, all time-based effects (chorus, analog and digital delay, reverb), EH B9, clean boost and then TU-2 tuner and out.
I've tried random orders of pedals over the years and the above order seems to have worked the best. I'm old school and haven't used an effects loop in decades. Too many cables and not enough benefit for me to justify it, so straight through it is.

My board has been an ever-morphing work-in-progress since 1994 when I first started building it and the only pedal that has lasted through the years is the TU-2. Everything else has changed and everything is subject to change because...pedals. I have another dozen+ pedals not in the board and I'm thinking of creating a second pedalboard.

It's madness, but it's fun.

I have an EH C9 - How are you mixing dirty guitar and keyboard sounds? I've been monkeying with splitting out of it and combining later...

 

[gtrdave]

I have an EH C9 - How are you mixing dirty guitar and keyboard sounds? I've been monkeying with splitting out of it and combining later...

It's odd that the pedal is even in my board as I used to use it for only one song (Dwight's "Fast As You") back when I played in a country band.
I guess I do still use it in the rare instance where we play "Don't Dream It's Over", but mostly I use it only in the studio on occasion.

As far as mixing the sounds, live I would use only the organ sound and have the dry direct signal control at 0. In the studio it's a crap shoot and what sound I use is usually at the whim of the producer and what he wants to hear. We have blended the dry and effect before and the result was pretty cool, especially w/ the bell organ effect. Makes for a nice chimey guitar sound on lead lines and arpeggios, etc...