Of Modeler Amps and Very Good Soft Synths and Mixes - A Manifesto

[László]

I think we would've made an interesting team. There seems like a natural order of compartmentalization in place.

Yeah, that's quite true!

I have experience in experimentation, but what I mostly do/get called upon is very regimented.

I help making new songs, but most of them have specific musical tradition's that I have studied and learned, rather than discovering on my own. I'm actually kinda mean to indie bands that want to blow some of their budget on studio time experimenting, explaining they'll be better off paying for mastering and t-shirts.

I once told a band they'd be better off practicing their songs.

Find four more students for a week in Chicago, at nearly half the price of a 2-week long Princess Cruise for a recording experience you'll never forget!

As part of the deal, I'll throw in a series of lessons on understanding copyrights. Because people simply don't have a clue.

 

[László]

My son is putting together a room in his place for working out song ideas and doing some recording when he's not at the studio he shares with his writing partner. But noise is an issue where he lives, so I convinced him to try a Mesa Cab Clone, as like me, he's not into modelers. He's got a good set of studio monitors, and a nice collection of vintage and modern analog synths, too (he's a Moog endorser).

He'll also be able to use it in the rehearsal space and even on fly dates if he just wants to grab a head and go.

Anyway, I just got a text that he picked one up.

I said, "Well, that's what I should do, too! Let me know how you like it." However, being too impatient to wait for the review, I immediately ordered one. LOL!

Should be a great little studio Swiss Army knife! I'll be able to go direct, completely silent; or blend a real cab for different kinds of tones, or just to add in the sound of a real speaker moving air.

I'm moving forward with this "use hardware whenever possible" thing on a lot of fronts. Even picked up some new mics.

 

[alantig]

The Cab Clone is a very cool little tool. You'll (Les) likely be able to pick it out of a mix - there is a bit of a signature to the sound - but it is so cool to be able to crank an amp and only hear what comes through the monitors.

One thing I had w/mine - I had it hooked up to my C but sitting on my Archon head. It seemed to be getting interference from the Archon. The buzz went away when I turned the Archon off. But when I tried to recreate it, I had no luck. Have to play w/that again sometime. Simply moving it off the amp eliminated the noise as well.

 

[László]

The Cab Clone is a very cool little tool. You'll (Les) likely be able to pick it out of a mix - there is a bit of a signature to the sound - but it is so cool to be able to crank an amp and only hear what comes through the monitors.

One thing I had w/mine - I had it hooked up to my C but sitting on my Archon head. It seemed to be getting interference from the Archon. The buzz went away when I turned the Archon off. But when I tried to recreate it, I had no luck. Have to play w/that again sometime. Simply moving it off the amp eliminated the noise as well.

I'm looking forward to using it for guitars, of course, but one big reason I got it was simply to run synths through my guitar amps to get a different kind of vibe going, and since I'll be doing that while mixing, the idea of not having guitar cabs ringing in my ears seemed like a good idea!

I run 25-50 foot cables from amp heads to cabs around my studio, so I'll be running a long cable to my workstation area from the amps, and sitting the cab clone on one of my racks, etc, so I can tweak it while using it and recording. No problem if it was transformer noise that way, either. However, my guess is that you might have had a simple grounding issue connecting one of your amps to your recording rig. Ground loops can exaggerate EMI noise leaking from adjacent gear.

 

[László]

Consistent with my "Let's just go for the best sound and not worry so much about convenience" theme, I got the ball rolling on a Prophet 12 synth today. It'll be my first new hardware synth in 15 years! :top:

I decided to start with things I'm recording, instead of things like summing mixers, on the good ol' "garbage in, garbage out" principle.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Bangin'!

 

[László]

Bangin'!

Knobs!

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Knobs!

And wooden end panels!

 

[László]

And wooden end panels!

Not just end panels, my brother Serg, it's very old school in its decor, and one knob per function for nearly everything:

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Not just end panels, my brother Serg, it's very old school in its decor, and one knob per function for nearly everything:

No cassette tape data storage though... I don't know how you'll save your patches. :wink:

 

[László]

No cassette tape data storage though... I don't know how you'll save your patches. :wink:

Haha. I remember those, in fact, Sequential Circuits made a standalone cassette backup for their patch storage back in the day (you probably know this!).

 

[kingsleyd]

There would have been a difficult choice, and I am bad at difficult choices when both alternatives are good ones!

You wouldn't do well trying to pick a guitar and amp to use at my house.

But you knew that already.

Good thoughts in the OP. A lot of it resonates with my own (limited) experience.

 

[László]

You wouldn't do well trying to pick a guitar and amp to use at my house.

But you knew that already.

Good thoughts in the OP. A lot of it resonates with my own (limited) experience.

Choosing between which of your amps and guitars to play? Piece o' friggin' cake.

Not a difficult choice. Wouldn't affect my life or work.

Choosing between two really nice guitars or amps to buy for my own studio? Now that's what I mean by a tough choice.

Affects my life and work.

Incidentally, your PS hollowbody with the spruce top and the Aether would be my choices, and it wouldn't even be close.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Haha. I remember those, in fact, Sequential Circuits made a standalone cassette backup for their patch storage back in the day (you probably know this!).

No! I wasn't aware they had their own units! I could never get that sh!t to work... The only use I ever got outta those was making random square wave tapes. :redface:


So, did you buy this yet? I got so intrigued by the looks of this thing that I watched a video with Dave, and it looks cool with all the features but, kinda doesn't sound that dope.
The digital oscillators just make this thing a Korg Electribe with $500 worth of effects processing and a cool looking MIDI controller attached. I suppose if you used a sh!tty cable from the synth to your patch-bay that might inject some analog noise in there, if you could get your wife to run the blender upstairs while recording, that'd add even more mojo.

Without analog VCO's what's the point in buying a hardware synth? You could buy that Moog filter and run your soft synths through it and get the same the same effect, or you could get two used Moog Voyager RME's or an Alesis Andromeda and have a real analog polyphonic synth for the same money.

 

[László]

Without analog VCO's what's the point in buying a hardware synth? You could buy that Moog filter and run your soft synths through it and get the same the same effect, or you could get two used Moog Voyager RME's or an Alesis Andromeda and have a real analog polyphonic synth for the same money.

Here's the point. The Prophet 12 also does Wavetable synthesis, like a PPG/Waldorf Wave, and for that you need digital oscillators. Wavetable synthesis is a personal favorite I've had for many, many years. But wait, there's more.

It also has 6 SHARC chips dedicated to the 5 oscillators for each of the 12 voices. For comparisons' sake, think about the good sounding UAD-2 processors; a UAD-2 Quad chipset with 4 of these SHARCs on it is by itself a grand. No synth with digital oscillators has ever had even a tiny fraction of the processing power of this thing, including any soft synth. But the analog filters are of course the stars of the show. Still, factor in the cost of those chips and you have an idea why this thing costs.

Also, think about this: A single Moog 500 series ladder filter is $800. The filters on this are even more powerful, and there are more of them. You'd need four or more Moog filters in that 500 series rack to approximate what this synth does with its analog filters. As you can see, this all starts to add up. Throw in a few high quality analog distortion boxes in four flavors for stereo operation. More investment.

To have a 12 voice polysynth, you'd need 12 Voyager rack mount editions. Not one or two. Yeah, what, 6-7 grand, used? Not that having that wouldn't be a ton of fun...

I've got a lot of experience with the Andromeda, and I didn't like its filters. Just my taste. I do like Moog filters. Speaking of Moog, I've mentioned that my son is a Moog endorser, and has a custom Voyager, and a Sub Phatty. But he also has a Prophet 12 and his sounds killer. So there's that.

The Electribes...as you know I've had the originals. I think they aren't very good, even the newer ones.

But the stars of the show on this synth are the analog filters, and Dave Smith designs a hell of an analog filter. I've lived for years with a Prophet 5 and a Prophet VS, the original Vector synth, in the studio. I think the new 12 sounds better. Seriously, because it does a lot more and it still has that filter set, only the filters are greatly enhanced on the new synth. As a guy who does a lot of sound design, I hear a lot of possibilities.

Sound quality, I love the way it sounds. I've heard it in person, and it just sounds huge, exactly what I want. And of course, the ease of use of the knob per function interface makes for a much better workflow than a hodgepodge of rack gear and patch bays.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

The thing I didn't like about the Dave Smith demos on Sweetwater was the demonstrations of the synth doing FM and AM synthesis. It just sounded like John Carpenter cues for "The Thing". I don't need to pay for a hardware synth for that, and if I did, I could buy a Yamaha TX802 for $50 on eBay. The wavetable stuff... Hey, if you can use it creatively then you should get back into subtractive synthesis, 'cause that's where the real purist revolution will begin. Save up for a Synergy and a MuLogic cartridge writer so you can pretend to be Wendy Carlos. Nobody else is doing it yet!

SHARC chips run from $7 to $34(rounded up)... I wonder which ones they're using for a $2999 synth. Your defense that these are the most powerful processors ever is exactly the same marketing for every new modeler and soft synth (which I like) but it still doesn't sound the same as a voltage controlled analog sound-snake does!

The Moog Voyager is capable of two-note polyphony. I'm not sure if it's voltage-divider technology or if you use the LFO oscillator (it's been a while and I won't look it up) but two of those would let you rock a triad and a bass line... What else could you need?

The Electribe thing? It was the "tunable feedback" function that reminded me of them. It just has "that" sound to me.

Hey. If the keyboard inspires you and fulfills your needs then, that's all that matters. I have owned a DrumTraks and a Prophet 5, and the most used function of the "P-5" was for patch #35 to sound like Rick James or Prince, or the DrumTraks high-hats and claps to sound like Rick James or Prince.

I'm only responding in a critical way because I admire the ideals of your manifesto, and I want you to buy all the sh!t I can't afford to.
If the thing does Rick James and Prince in person, I'd be psyched.

 

[László]

I'm only responding in a critical way because I admire the ideals of your manifesto, and I want you to buy all the sh!t I can't afford to.
If the thing does Rick James and Prince in person, I'd be psyched.

No worries. I like the sound of the thing, and it'll work well for me.

Sorry for my earlier somewhat harsh reply.

 

[László]

Manifesto Implementation: Day Of The Long Knives!

Kind of a light day today in the studio meant that after catching up on a bunch of contracts invoicing and other monkey work, I could get down to implementing the Manifesto on my computer; that is, ruthlessly eliminating soft synths, sample players, and audio plugins from my system. I'm changing my workflow, and there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't cut it at this point (admittedly, some software never did cut it).

So I went through every plugin, and decided then and there whether it was useful or whether it would be axed, gone, deleted, made to disappear, exiled and "resettled."

The criteria were:

1. Has to sound good enough to be used on its own or in conjunction with some hardware and mix at least decently.

2. Must have been used on a track in the last six months, or must have inspired creative ideas during that period if not used on a track.

Everything else had to go!

Ruthlessly Liquidated:

Absynth, Massive, FM8, Alpha, Morpho, CRX4, Octopus, RMV, Predator, Electra2, Oxium, Syn'X, Strum, String Studio, Ultra Analog, Chromaphone, Tassman, Strum Electric, Ohmicide, Ohm Boyz, Fromage, Quad Fromage, Sample Tank, SampleTron, T-Racks, Symptohn, Miroslav, Predatohm, dozens of Waves plugins, GTR3, Studio Devil's amp modeler, Independence Pro, Mach Five, and Amplitube.

Goodbye! See yaz! Nice knowin' ya! Have a nice afterlife!

No point in having the Revolution slowed down. No sense in auditioning patches or otherwise fussing with a piece of software I haven't found useful in forever, or one that doesn't sound good enough to be used on a project. Money down the tubes? Well, I used some of this stuff a long time ago, and most of it appeared on tracks and paid for itself. A significant percentage never got used at all, once I started working with it and discovered the relationship wasn't going to work out.

Having shown my commitment to the principles of the Revolution by my action day, I can now await the arrival of The Prophet with the proper revolutionary attitude.

Note: I will concede that there is some good sounding software that remains on my computer. Lots of it. In the soft synth world, this is stuff that I can process through some analog gear, or even some plugins, and get pretty good results, because it's powerful stuff.The stuff that's remaining will most likely be run through at least one analog stage while mixing simply to give it a little more weight, but some of it I'll just keep around because it inspires creative ideas.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Sorry for my earlier somewhat harsh reply.

It's all good! The analog/digital debate has left trails of bodies throughout the years. I apologize for being a boner about it too.

 

[László]

It's all good! The analog/digital debate has left trails of bodies throughout the years. I apologize for being a boner about it too.

For me, it's less about analog/digital than what happens in a mix. I have nothing against digital, I use it on every project and always have, going back to my D-50 and TX802 days (come to think of it I had a Yamaha RX5 drum machine that was pretty cool, too). And with the exception of a real plate reverb for a while, I have always used digital effects.

However, all this digital gear back then also had to be converted to an analog audio signal, and go through hardware. Granted, the D/A conversion caused distortion. So did the analog hardware itself. Then I ran it all through my analog console.

All that stuff added a sound. In fact, it added a sound in the way an amplifier and pickups add a sound to an electric guitar, it's just more subtle.

In the case of an electric guitar, that sound of guitar with amplifier has become the sound of the instrument. In fact, the nonlinearities and distortions of a 1930s technology radio amplification circuit, which is all a guitar amp is, are so desirable that people want to emulate that part of it digitally. Same with tape saturation. Same with console emulation.

In fact, now there's even a software sampler that emulates the sound not just of the samples, but of the older hardware samplers.

The question is, given the current state of technology, what's the very best possible way to achieve the sounds that analog circuitry adds to the signal? And is anything missing with the digital emulations of that circuitry?

I will concede that what might be happening is that the ear is simply used to that sound, and craves it for that reason. Moreover, I will also concede that listeners might eventually not want that analog sound added at some point down the road. Before recordings, and before electric instruments were invented, and before microphones existed, the ear craved only acoustic sounds. Obviously, there was no distortion.

So things might change.

My Manifesto idea is strictly for my own taste, and it only applies to the alternate reality of electric and electronic sounds that are produced in my own little space, for my own compositions and work. As I said earlier, it's certainly not a prescription for everyone.

And given the fact that I have to absolutely make use of soft synths and soft samplers in my work (soft samplers are infinitely more powerful than the old hardware samplers because of the computers) because budgets do not allow me, for example, to hire an orchestra for a project, I have to cobble together as best I can some way to give the sounds I use the ability to blend together in a pleasing way.

The problem is that my clients want, and I like, blending in real instruments, like electric guitar, bass, drums, and vocals. The mix is the place that the soft noisemakers and the hard noisemakers intersect. So how best to do that? What's going to make these various elements work together?

That is the problem I'm trying to solve. I'm not trying to become all analog. I'm trying to find methods to first, get the best possible sounds out of each instrument, hard or soft, into the recording medium while tracking; and I'm trying to solve the problem of bringing these diverse elements together in a mix, in a way that nothing "mushes out" or gets lost, otherwise, what's the point of tracking the part in the first place if you can't hear it?