Lesteban Hates Amp Modelers. A Rant.

[Bluesboy998]

+ 1

 

[Bluesboy998]

Cr I tried a kemper loved it had no idea what I was doing but damn it was fun

 

[kes7u]

Cyclops, I see where you are coming from, to an extent.

Les will certainly speak for himself. I feel that giving one's opinion on any of a variety of topics is one of the reasons for this forum.

I don't feel that the purpose of his post was to denigrate those who use modelling amps. Based on what I've seen from him in the past, I feel that often Les posts things like this to stimulate discussion. 'Hating' something will certainly generate more discussion than taking the middle road or otherwise being 'wishy washy' about a topic. 'His' opinion is that he hates the things. Others' opinions differ, and while Les will likely defend his position to the death, I think many of us find the resultant dialogue not only sometimes amusing, but often informative.

In conclusion, I don't feel that he is attempting to be nasty. We're all (mostly) friends here!
Kevin

Les, I do understand, you make a living at recording and playing and I certainly don't, BUT....

Really!?! This kind of rant is one of the reasons I'm not very active here. It's a F-ING tool, for gawds sake, if you don't like it, don't use it. You've tried them and hate them? GREAT! Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Why is it that something different seems to bring out the worst in people? Instead of TRASHING it, be thankful that some alternative even exists. For me, it's a pain in the rear to deal with tube amps. The guys I see gigging out do great jobs with something as 'poor' as Line 6 Spiders, for pete's sake! And, where would ALL of the PRS people be without being an 'alternative'? 'It's not a Gibson or Fender, let's trash the guys that play them'. I *do* seem to remember hearing lots of people trashing PRS for a VERY long time.

Sorry for my soap box, but the 'hate' for stuff has gotten my goat lately.

 

[rugerpc]

I'm not a recording or gigging musician, but if I was in a crunch and a piece of gear let me down, costing me both time and money as it did Les in his OP story, I'd probably use the word 'hate' too.

Les isn't proposing that all of the modeling amps get thrown into the depts of Hell and burned to a crisp, he is just saying that they aren't for him. And he is very detailed as to why.

I think using a tool to make your living gives you the standing to be passionate about how well (or not) that tool helps you do the job.

Modelers, play and enjoy your amps, just don't take one to Les' house for a jam...

 

[László]

Les, I do understand, you make a living at recording and playing and I certainly don't, BUT....

Really!?! This kind of rant is one of the reasons I'm not very active here. It's a F-ING tool, for gawds sake, if you don't like it, don't use it. You've tried them and hate them? GREAT! Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Why is it that something different seems to bring out the worst in people?.

Well, I purposely self-identified the thread as a rant to let other people know that I didn't want everyone taking my expression of this opinion all that seriously. Also, the character "Lesteban" I use from time to time is a humorous creation, showing I try not to take myself seriously. Lesteban is a cartoon character I created for a cartoon I posted on the forum way back when. See, this is Lesteban:



I, on the other hand, am Les.

On the third hand, I don't really care for modelers. And on the fourth hand, I have a bunch of them. So there's that.

Please understand that my posts are not prescriptions that I think others need to heed. They're only expressions of my own opinions.

So Les, I do mostly agree with you, but I'm pretty damn excited about my new rig right now!

The Kemper is absolutely the best of the bunch, no doubt about it. I think it sounds much better than the algorithm-based models, and is especially good at creating clean tones.

However it certainly has its limitations. Whether they matter or not in relation to your context is, of course, always a personal thing. Edit: I'll buy you a beer if you still have it in 18 months!

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Yup. Agreed. Junk. Absolute junk.

Amp modelers are the upright pianos of the guitar amp world. Sure, it may sound "ok" at times but you know what a piece of sh^t it is once you hear a Steinway grand in person. I know, because my mom was the one with the upright and my aunt had the Steinway. Growing up in a musical family helped me understand what a full rich tone is and what it isn't.

Well if we're going to follow that analogy, let's take it all the way: Electric pianos are total pieces of sh!t too. A Rhodes, a Wurlitzer A200, and the Yamaha cp-70 have zero musical value when compared to the full rich tone of a Steinway. "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life", "What'd I Say", "Smooth Operator", "Paperback Writer", "Rock The Casbah", and "Wild Horses" are all total crap that would've gone from sounding "ok" to great songs if only they wheeled in a grand piano.

But the really good news is I finally found the answer to 'what could Sergio wear with a blue guitar?' :

I bet you could cut down on the fear of dinging and scratching your blue guitar in that thing.

And my real question was that in this day and age where there are innumerable great tube amp choices out there, and especially multi-channel, multi-mode tube amps, why would anyone lug around an amp and cabinet plus a modeler instead of a real tube amp? Makes no sense to me at all.

Maybe some people like the way it sounds?

It's a F-ING tool, for gawds sake, if you don't like it, don't use it.

Agreed!
Les did warn us that this was a "rant" though.. It's really no different than somebody saying they hate tomatoes, the color blue, or blade switches on PRS. If he (in third-person no less) needs to freak out we should be supportive of his mental hangups.

Have you ever seen those people on TV that can't even be in the same room with bananas or birds without losing their minds? If Les starts rocking back and forth in the fetal position because there's a red bean-shaped electronic device in his studio, I'll be there for him.

 

[László]

Well if we're going to follow that analogy, let's take it all the way: Electric pianos are total pieces of sh!t too. A Rhodes, a Wurlitzer A200, and the Yamaha cp-70 have zero musical value when compared to the full rich tone of a Steinway. "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life", "What'd I Say", "Smooth Operator", "Paperback Writer", "Rock The Casbah", and "Wild Horses" are all total crap that would've gone from sounding "ok" to great songs if only they wheeled in a grand piano.

True enough.

It's timely, because I recently had a discussion about this very topic with my son Jamie, who loves uprights for their funky tone that sits nicely in a mix without dominating it. In fact, he cut all the piano tracks on that last 30 Seconds to Mars record with an upright at Jared's studio. He was trying to convince me to get a decent upright for my studio.

I have always cut piano tracks with a grand (and admittedly I often use a 36 gig sampled grand piano on my tracks, but that's another story; some sampled instruments, like horns or saxes, bug me, some don't).

Anyway, he worked recently at Electric Lady Studio in NYC, and was very excited that they had the original Muscle Shoals Wurlie that the Stones used on one of their records. While he was there he face-timed me, and played it, and damned if it didn't sound EXACTLY like that record (all of them sound a little different, just like guitars, they're wood and they have pickups, etc)! You could hear it immediately.

However, the question is always whether the upright or the electric piano is supposed to be an emulation of a grand piano, or a unique instrument in its own right. If an emulation, of course they all fail. If an instrument on their own terms, they succeed. And of course, the bar is always moving as an instrument moves from "bad emulation" to "hey, that's kind of cool in its own right" in peoples' minds.

It's kind of like a B-3. As a classical pipe organ, well, no. But as a great sounding instrument on its own, yes, they're amazing, at least the good ones, and the synth B-3s do not hold up well against a B-3/Leslie combination.

But I'll take it one step more -- I don't know anyone who pulls out a modeler because it's a different instrument in its own right, and an alternative sound to a real guitar amp. That may happen at some point. And it may not. However, most of the folks I know who use them, use them as a substitute for a guitar amp, or to have more "amps" on hand for shows or recording.

 

[alantig]

But Les...you're the guy who sold me on S-Gear! :vroam:

I can't really argue Les's point - if they don't work for him, it doesn't matter how well they work for anyone else, they don't work for him.

For me, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If I'm trying to get an idea down quickly, I'll toss a modeler on instead of trying to tweak an amp. And I generally prefer the way a clean model works in a mix as opposed to a dirty model (but I prefer the dirty model in real life, but I seem to have veered away from amps...).

But there is something undeniably fun about getting hit w/the force of a good tube amp.

Even saying that, the Kemperer still intrigues me, and if Chris is being swayed...

 

[justmund]

I've profiled all my amps with Michael Britt from Lonestar & I will say that my tone has never been better.

Dude! I would love to hear some of your profiles I bought the latest M. Britt pack and it's great!

I'm totally with you on the live tool thing, easy/quick setups, control over your FOH sound, great/consistent tone etc. Next purchase is an Atomic CLR...

I still love plugging straight into my HXDA (30) though, but I'm getting into traditionalist territory here. There is something "right" (to me) about guitar+lead+amp.

 

[László]

But Les...you're the guy who sold me on S-Gear! :vroam:

Yup, it's the best plugin modeler I have used so far. It's the one I wound up using yesterday as a temporary thing.

IEven saying that, the Kemperer still intrigues me, and if Chris is being swayed...

Alan, if Chris still has the Kemper in 18 months, I will buy you a beer. In fact, I'll buy one for Chris, too! Buy me one if he sells it. Actually, I'd like to take you both out for beers regardless.

 

[Bluesboy998]

Les your a trouble maker but your posts are very concise and to the point that's why I love reading them oh and Iam only kidding keep them coming I don't drink but I'll take an iced tea thank you very much.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Alan, if Chris still has the Kemper in 18 months, I will buy you a beer. In fact, I'll buy one for Chris, too! Buy me one if he sells it. Actually, I'd like to take you both out for beers regardless.

So... Do they get even more beers if you sell all of your sh!t in 18 months? Guitar players are fickle, retaining ownership over a piece of gear should have very little to do with judging it to be useful musically or not.

 

[aristotle]

So... Do they get even more beers if you sell all of your sh!t in 18 months? Guitar players are fickle, retaining ownership over a piece of gear should have very little to do with judging it to be useful musically or not.

Say it ain't so! I've evidently been doing this all wrong. I can't even force myself to get rid of my silly old Parker P40 that will never see the light of day now that I have the P22.

I'm pretty familiar with the modeling concept. The original range of Marshalls that I have in the bat cave were obtained for a project where we modeled just about everything ever put out by them, but we did it in-guitar with a direct network output (it actually worked pretty well, but venture funding dried up before it ever went to market....) For me personally, it just isn't the same, but like with most things tone related, there is an emotional element to my reaction to it.

Independent of my personal reaction to it as a user...getting back to Les' original complaint....the one thing that I haven't found is that it doesn't sit in the mix (I know..that's a double negative, but you get my drift...) But my experience is only relative to live applications. I do agree with Les though that these things are different than something like a B3. They strive to exactly duplicate a tube amp. They don't put out something that is fundamentally different and so it seems fair to me to judge them according to how well they do what they are trying to do...

 

[cyclops]

All (especially Les!), sorry I fired off so hard back to the original post... I had just been hit with a bit of irony in that the exact same sentiments have been thrown at PRS, not only with their electric guitars, but their acoustic guitars, basses, and amps. I also find it ironic that Paul keeps trying to make a PRS that sounds exactly like a 1959 Les Paul, or an amp that sounds like a Marshall. We seem to all want something that's 'like something else, but better', and we get a bit weird when someone says it isn't. I think Paul has certainly created instruments that will stand the test of time, and will ultimately stand on their own.

I like to think of the modeling tools the same way that piano players look at keyboards. No matter what, a keyboard is not going to be a grand piano. But, do they both have their uses? Certainly! I can't haul around a baby grand to a gig. I think us guitar players are starting to get to the same point with amps. It's not that we can't carry them around, it's the fact that we can't turn them up like they could in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. I think we will reach some 'good enough' point, if we haven't already. I've seen a lot of local bands using everything from a Peavey Viper (guitarist sounded great!), to a Digitech pedal (again, an *amazing* guitar player), to a Roland Jazz 60 (still sounded great), to a Line 6 Spider IV (didn't sound as bad as you'd think ). Ultimately, it comes down to the player putting the time and effort into their playing first, their knowledge second, and the actual gear last. I know I've violated almost my entire life! I own or have owned just about every type of guitar and gadget out there, and some have worked, and some haven't.

Last thought... 'It's all good!'

 

[tabl10s]

You've been watching too much porn no doubt.

A possibility.

 

[László]

So... Do they get even more beers if you sell all of your sh!t in 18 months?

Nah, I only sell my stuff to buy myself more beers.

Guitar players are fickle, retaining ownership over a piece of gear should have very little to do with judging it to be useful musically or not.

So does this mean I should withdraw the beer bet or not?

 

[László]

All (especially Les!), sorry I fired off so hard back to the original post... I had just been hit with a bit of irony in that the exact same sentiments have been thrown at PRS, not only with their electric guitars, but their acoustic guitars, basses, and amps. I also find it ironic that Paul keeps trying to make a PRS that sounds exactly like a 1959 Les Paul, or an amp that sounds like a Marshall. We seem to all want something that's 'like something else, but better', and we get a bit weird when someone says it isn't. I think Paul has certainly created instruments that will stand the test of time, and will ultimately stand on their own.

I like to think of the modeling tools the same way that piano players look at keyboards. No matter what, a keyboard is not going to be a grand piano. But, do they both have their uses? Certainly! I can't haul around a baby grand to a gig. I think us guitar players are starting to get to the same point with amps. It's not that we can't carry them around, it's the fact that we can't turn them up like they could in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. I think we will reach some 'good enough' point, if we haven't already. I've seen a lot of local bands using everything from a Peavey Viper (guitarist sounded great!), to a Digitech pedal (again, an *amazing* guitar player), to a Roland Jazz 60 (still sounded great), to a Line 6 Spider IV (didn't sound as bad as you'd think ). Ultimately, it comes down to the player putting the time and effort into their playing first, their knowledge second, and the actual gear last. I know I've violated almost my entire life! I own or have owned just about every type of guitar and gadget out there, and some have worked, and some haven't.

Last thought... 'It's all good!'

I wasn't offended at all, not to worry! I really just wanted to get a topic of conversation going.

Speaking of irony, I have the very PRS model that was intended to sound a lot like a '58 or '59 LP, the McCarty Singlecut. And the PRS amp that sounds like the '68 Superbass/Superlead Marshalls -- the HXDA (well, I've had the 50 watt version, and the 30 watt version's coming tomorrow)!

However I dig them because:

The McCarty Singlecut does sound a lot like an old LP, but with what I think are improvements over what Gibson is making; and,

The HXDA sounds better (to me) than any Marshall currently being made. I love that amp.

And yet, I agree with you on PRS guitars standing on their own, the thing I like about my PRSes, and most certainly about my Singlecut, is that they still have that wonderful PRS thing going. That's something I like a lot. In fact, I recently got a CU24 30th model because it's so darn PRS, it's nothing else. So I guess I can go both ways on that question.

Re: keyboard emulations, I'm of two minds. I use sampled pianos and modeled synths on the ad tracks I record. In the case of a piano, I think that the latest multisampled instruments like the 36 gig Steinway I use a lot sound as good as many decent recordings of a piano. But not all. I wouldn't use one on certain styles, but they're fine for rock and roll. Same with my feelings about synth emulations.

And in terms of digital synths, I think some of the plugins are the equal of any hardware that has ever come onto the market, and I mean it. These aren't the copies of old analog synths, they're new digital designs and they sound great. Tone2's Gladiator uses a completely new type of synthesis, and they have another product that uses impulse responses, and neither were ever on a hardware instrument. So there's that happening as well. In fact, I having had several Waldorf synths, I find that their Largo plugin sounds as good as any of them except maybe the big Wave, that they only built a few of (not the PPG).

In fact, rumor has it that Apple has bought a software company called Camel Audio that made a wonderful soft synth called Alchemy, a synth that had some very unique sound capabilities and sounds truly fantastic. I'm hopeful that the rumor is true, as it means I can continue to use the synth since Camel Audio closed their website down, etc.

Reasonable minds can certainly differ - all I am capable of thinking is how I feel about them.

But to show you how someone else can think I'm all wet about my use of the very sampled stuff I don't mind using, I will return to the example of my son, who has a gold record to his engineering and mixing credit, and who absolutely will only use real pianos, real analog synths, real drums and real amps etc. on his recordings, no exceptions.

I mentioned in another thread somewhere that when I told him I got a Fulltone tube echoplex, he said, "Well, you're finally getting it! I have a vintage one." I mean, I can never be cool to my son, even though I used an echoplex, recorded real analog synths, real amps, real B-3s and grand piano, to real analog tape 15 years before he was even conceived! Yeah, I'm finally getting it.

That said, even though everyone should absolutely, positively use instruments and gear that work for them, and even though my opinion of amp modelers may be in the minority, I think it's fair game to discuss their shortcomings. Again, not because the products aren't well-intended, it's simply a matter of their falling short of my needs. And, um...yeah, I really don't like 'em because I hate the way the distortion sounds. It just grates on my ears in a very bad way.

Of course I will admit that they have their uses. As I said, I use them as scratchpads for ideas. I think my son does, too, even though he won't put them on a final track.

 

[László]

the one thing that I haven't found is that it doesn't sit in the mix (I know..that's a double negative, but you get my drift...) But my experience is only relative to live applications.

It probably warrants a definition on my part, since "sit in the mix" is a pretty subjective thing.

What I said in the OP was "Not one of the amp models, even with tweaking - and yes I have the most highly regarded ones from a variety of companies - could hang with the DG30 tracks..."

This was kind of my shorthand for saying that the modelers did not sound good in a mix with a real amp. It's not that they were lost in the mix, it's that they actually sounded bad trying to blend with the real amp.

They're actually better sounding when not in a mix with real amps. The frame of reference of a real amp isn't there, and the ear is more easily fooled.
Also, live, you're not going to hear the kind of detail that you hear in a recording. The room acoustics come into play, etc., to a greater degree.

I rarely have trouble mixing tracks when I've recorded more than one real amp, even if the amps are very different.

 

[cyclops]

Very cool stuff, Les!

I wasn't offended at all, not to worry! I really just wanted to get a topic of conversation going.

Speaking of irony, I have the very PRS model that was intended to sound a lot like a '58 or '59 LP, the McCarty Singlecut. And the PRS amp that sounds like the '68 Superbass/Superlead Marshalls -- the HXDA (well, I've had the 50 watt version, and the 30 watt version's coming tomorrow)!

However I dig them because:

The McCarty Singlecut does sound a lot like an old LP, but with what I think are improvements over what Gibson is making; and,

The HXDA sounds better (to me) than any Marshall currently being made. I love that amp.

And yet, I agree with you on PRS guitars standing on their own, the thing I like about my PRSes, and most certainly about my Singlecut, is that they still have that wonderful PRS thing going. That's something I like a lot. In fact, I recently got a CU24 30th model because it's so darn PRS, it's nothing else. So I guess I can go both ways on that question.

Re: keyboard emulations, I'm of two minds. I use sampled pianos and modeled synths on the ad tracks I record. In the case of a piano, I think that the latest multisampled instruments like the 36 gig Steinway I use a lot sound as good as many decent recordings of a piano. But not all. I wouldn't use one on certain styles, but they're fine for rock and roll. Same with my feelings about synth emulations.

And in terms of digital synths, I think some of the plugins are the equal of any hardware that has ever come onto the market, and I mean it. These aren't the copies of old analog synths, they're new digital designs and they sound great. Tone2's Gladiator uses a completely new type of synthesis, and they have another product that uses impulse responses, and neither were ever on a hardware instrument. So there's that happening as well. In fact, I having had several Waldorf synths, I find that their Largo plugin sounds as good as any of them except maybe the big Wave, that they only built a few of (not the PPG).

In fact, rumor has it that Apple has bought a software company called Camel Audio that made a wonderful soft synth called Alchemy, a synth that had some very unique sound capabilities and sounds truly fantastic. I'm hopeful that the rumor is true, as it means I can continue to use the synth since Camel Audio closed their website down, etc.

Reasonable minds can certainly differ - all I am capable of thinking is how I feel about them.

But to show you how someone else can think I'm all wet about my use of the very sampled stuff I don't mind using, I will return to the example of my son, who has a gold record to his engineering and mixing credit, and who absolutely will only use real pianos, real analog synths, real drums and real amps etc. on his recordings, no exceptions.

I mentioned in another thread somewhere that when I told him I got a Fulltone tube echoplex, he said, "Well, you're finally getting it! I have a vintage one." I mean, I can never be cool to my son, even though I used an echoplex, recorded real analog synths, real amps, real B-3s and grand piano, to real analog tape 15 years before he was even conceived! Yeah, I'm finally getting it.

That said, even though everyone should absolutely, positively use instruments and gear that work for them, and even though my opinion of amp modelers may be in the minority, I think it's fair game to discuss their shortcomings. Again, not because the products aren't well-intended, it's simply a matter of their falling short of my needs. And, um...yeah, I really don't like 'em because I hate the way the distortion sounds. It just grates on my ears in a very bad way.

Of course I will admit that they have their uses. As I said, I use them as scratchpads for ideas. I think my son does, too, even though he won't put them on a final track.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

So does this mean I should withdraw the beer bet or not?

I would just forfeit and buy all the drinks in June with them.
Alan and Chris are super fun to drink with and really polite about letting you dominate a conversation.