Lesteban Hates Amp Modelers. A Rant.

[László]

I hate amp modelers.

There, I said it.

Sure, I can get away with using them. My clients' ears are not trained to tell the damn difference. I have used them for demos sometimes when I've needed a tone I don't have on hand with a real amp and there wasn't time to get the real thing into the studio, or when it was 2 AM and I needed to lay down something without shaking the house. But you know what? Every F$^%&*g one of them sucks. This was brought home to me again today.

It's not like I don't have them. I have used every amp plugin on the market, and I have had the Axe FX and the other German thingy that people use on sessions I've produced.

Well, here's the deal: They don't sit in a mix. The distortion sounds more like gravel rotating in a cement truck than like tube distortion. They have crappy dynamic range compared to a tube amp. They sound tiny. Really tiny.

Today I proved that sad fact to myself once again, when trying to add a very particular heavy sounding guitar part to the tracks I'd recorded over the weekend for an important project with the DG30 (and a few pedals). I was in a hurry (client time pressure), didn't want to go out and buy another pedal, only had the DG on hand, and there wasn't time to borrow an amp.

What a friggin' waste of time. Not one of the amp models, even with tweaking - and yes I have the most highly regarded ones from a variety of companies - could hang with the DG30 tracks. Not one. Not one preset, not one tweaked preset, not one with additional effects, nothing, nada, not a single one could hang next to the real amp.

All of them sounded like cardboard next to the real deal in a mix. Cardboard. And not good cardboard. More like cardboard that had been sitting in a stanky alley under a pile of do-doo, cardboard.

These are the latest generation plugin models, by the way. Some of them were expensive. All of them sucked very badly.

I used one to satisfy the client demand temporarily, since this track is Work in Progress. It will be replaced by a real amp recording. I can live with sampled drums. There are compromises, but I can live with them. I can live with sampled strings. I can live with digital emulations of synths, and even effects.

But I cannot stand digital emulation of tube amp distortion. It just drives me batty.

My HXDA30 can't get here fast enough.

 

[andy474x]

I have not tried one (at least no good ones), and I have no interest. Drives me crazy when I hear people playing through modeling software, seems to be a lot of shredders on youtube, etc., that go direct into a modeling program, or whatever it's called. I dislike them because I can always tell right away it's not real. It's like they're too refined, too predictable, and not in a good way. They pump out a tone, and you said, wise Lesteban, they have no dynamics. It's like the sexy tendencies of a real amp are all taken away - cranked tubes, speakers, all that stuff that just puts the sauce on it.

Many, many rambling metaphors, but I think we're on the same page here.

My drummer wants me to get an Eleven Rack, but I just can't do it. As much as I would LOVE to just program all my tones for a set into a box and cycle through them on a midi foot controller, it just wouldn't sound right. Plus he's a drummer, so I obviously shouldn't listen.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I'll still take a modeler over a blue guitar any day of the year.

 

[veinbuster]

Interesting.
I'm not a fan of fake stuff in general.
I think I'd be OK with a modeler in a hotel room - because I could fit it in my luggage.

 

[Drew]

Yup. Agreed. Junk. Absolute junk.

Amp modelers are the upright pianos of the guitar amp world. Sure, it may sound "ok" at times but you know what a piece of sh^t it is once you hear a Steinway grand in person. I know, because my mom was the one with the upright and my aunt had the Steinway. Growing up in a musical family helped me understand what a full rich tone is and what it isn't.

 

[rugerpc]

I'll still take a modeler over a blue guitar any day of the year.

What about a blue modeler... ?

...or maybe a blue model?

But the really good news is I finally found the answer to 'what could Sergio wear with a blue guitar?' :

I applolgize for the distraction and return you to your regularly scheduled Lesteban...

 

[Boogie]

Lay back down on the couch, Lestiban, and tell us how this makes you feel. When you picture an amp modeler in your mind, does it remind you of your mother? Your father? Pink elephants? Or, heaven forbid, blue elephants??!! Let's return to our happy place...breathe... :biggrin:

It sounds, to me, that you may need to keep a Swiss Army Knife amp around for covering the infrequent odd requirements. Something that may fall short of being the DG30 or HXDA, but specifically being something that these amps are not...like, maybe a Boogie Mark Five:25? Others come to mind, but if I had money riding on it, I'd go here first.

If PRS is listening, this is specifically what the market craves today: multi-channel, extreme flexibility, recording features, small format, road-worthy, and extremely musical. If you could make a 25w version with Dallas/HXDA/Archon channels wih FX loop and DI/speaker sim out, I'd be VERY interested. Even Lestiban might like it.

 

[rugerpc]

and it should have a blue maple front panel...

 

[henryjurstin13]

If PRS is listening, this is specifically what the market craves today: multi-channel, extreme flexibility, recording features, small format, road-worthy, and extremely musical. If you could make a 25w version with Dallas/HXDA/Archon channels wih FX loop and DI/speaker sim out, I'd be VERY interested. Even Lestiban might like it.

I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be able to lift that price tag....

 

[aristotle]

I don't know squat about the purely software based recording modeling packages out there.

But I do wonder if what Les finds so objectionable is the front end portion of the modeler, or the speaker emulation. Out of curiosity, have you ever piped the output of the modeler through a power amp and real live V30s, recorded that with your usual mic / signal chain, and put it in the mix that way? I'm a complete idiot when it comes to recording, so I'm asking this out of curiosity, and not attempting to provide an intelligent solution.

 

[vchizzle]

Lesteban needs an Archon! ARCHON, ARCHON, ARCHON, ARCHON!

 

[László]

But I do wonder if what Les finds so objectionable is the front end portion of the modeler, or the speaker emulation. Out of curiosity, have you ever piped the output of the modeler through a power amp and real live V30s, recorded that with your usual mic / signal chain, and put it in the mix that way?

I find the front end the problem. There are even some decent sounding impulse response speaker emulations that sound fairly authentic, I have a package of them, and I've used them.

I have a buddy who tried to convince that running a modeler through a power amp and a speaker cab would work. So he brought an outfit to the studio to A/B with real tube amps. I'll say this: first, there was a noticeable improvement, and second, it wasn't as good sounding as any of the half dozen tube amps I had in the studio at the time.

And my real question was that in this day and age where there are innumerable great tube amp choices out there, and especially multi-channel, multi-mode tube amps, why would anyone lug around an amp and cabinet plus a modeler instead of a real tube amp? Makes no sense to me at all.

 

[László]

It sounds, to me, that you may need to keep a Swiss Army Knife amp around for covering the infrequent odd requirements. Something that may fall short of being the DG30 or HXDA, but specifically being something that these amps are not...like, maybe a Boogie Mark Five:25? Others come to mind, but if I had money riding on it, I'd go here first.

Actually, I had a big-iron Mark V and liked it a lot. Since it was switchable down to 10 watts, I'd get the big-iron version again if I were to head in that direction.

However, with the 50 watt version, I found that an HXDA and the right pedal gives me all the high gain I need under all but the most extreme circumstances, which leads to....

Lesteban needs an Archon! ARCHON, ARCHON, ARCHON, ARCHON!

Yup. I'd head here before adding another Mark V.

A DG 30 for rootsier stuff, HXDA for medium to higher gain stuff, and an Archon for high gain stuff would be a heck of an arsenal!

Though honestly, with a pedal the HXDA gets pretty darn heavy. So I doubt I'll need anything else.

 

[tabl10s]

I hate amp modelers.

There, I said it.

Sure, I can get away with using them. My clients' ears are not trained to tell the damn difference. I have used them for demos sometimes when I've needed a tone I don't have on hand with a real amp and there wasn't time to get the real thing into the studio, or when it was 2 AM and I needed to lay down something without shaking the house. But you know what? Every F$^%&*g one of them sucks. This was brought home to me again today.

It's not like I don't have them. I have used every amp plugin on the market, and I have had the Axe FX and the other German thingy that people use on sessions I've produced.

Well, here's the deal: They don't sit in a mix. The distortion sounds more like gravel rotating in a cement truck than like tube distortion. They have crappy dynamic range compared to a tube amp. They sound tiny. Really tiny.

Today I proved that sad fact to myself once again, when trying to add a very particular heavy sounding guitar part to the tracks I'd recorded over the weekend for an important project with the DG30 (and a few pedals). I was in a hurry (client time pressure), didn't want to go out and buy another pedal, only had the DG on hand, and there wasn't time to borrow an amp.

What a friggin' waste of time. Not one of the amp models, even with tweaking - and yes I have the most highly regarded ones from a variety of companies - could hang with the DG30 tracks. Not one. Not one preset, not one tweaked preset, not one with additional effects, nothing, nada, not a single one could hang next to the real amp.

All of them sounded like cardboard next to the real deal in a mix. Cardboard. And not good cardboard. More like cardboard that had been sitting in a stanky alley under a pile of do-doo, cardboard.

These are the latest generation plugin models, by the way. Some of them were expensive. All of them sucked very badly.

I used one to satisfy the client demand temporarily, since this track is Work in Progress. It will be replaced by a real amp recording. I can live with sampled drums. There are compromises, but I can live with them. I can live with sampled strings. I can live with digital emulations of synths, and even effects.

But I cannot stand digital emulation of tube amp distortion. It just drives me batty.

My HXDA30 can't get here fast enough.

Every time I look at this topic in the "What's New" section quickly, I keep thinking I see "Lesbian" instead of "Lesterban"

 

[László]

Every time I look at this topic in the "What's New" section quickly, I keep thinking I see "Lesbian" instead of "Lesterban"

You've been watching too much porn no doubt.

 

[jcha008]

Amp modelers will never be as good as the real thing. But I do like amp modelers for quick demos, bedroom jamming, and at times flexibility. The Axe-FX can be real useful for adding a bunch of odd effects that would be hard to emulate with real pedals, and it's cool to be able to make your own patches. In saying that though, I have noticed that at times, the Axe-FX has a certain sound of is own that many people may not like.

I do think the Kemper holds its ground better in terms of modeling. Probably one of the closets sounding amp modelers I've come across. Still no replacement for the real thing, but it's nice to have at times .

 

[g.wizz]

and it should have a blue maple front panel...

WEll said my dear rugerpc
to go along with my 513 FBJ :beer:

 

[cyclops]

Les, I do understand, you make a living at recording and playing and I certainly don't, BUT....

Really!?! This kind of rant is one of the reasons I'm not very active here. It's a F-ING tool, for gawds sake, if you don't like it, don't use it. You've tried them and hate them? GREAT! Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Why is it that something different seems to bring out the worst in people? Instead of TRASHING it, be thankful that some alternative even exists. For me, it's a pain in the rear to deal with tube amps. The guys I see gigging out do great jobs with something as 'poor' as Line 6 Spiders, for pete's sake! And, where would ALL of the PRS people be without being an 'alternative'? 'It's not a Gibson or Fender, let's trash the guys that play them'. I *do* seem to remember hearing lots of people trashing PRS for a VERY long time.

Sorry for my soap box, but the 'hate' for stuff has gotten my goat lately.

 

[Bluesboy998]

I really enjoy using my fender mustang 3 for small gigs.if you can play I mean truly play regardless of the years any amp will suffice.remember your sound comes from within and it's a lot of fun to experiment. Two of the greatest guitarists to roam the earth BB King and Albert King used transistor amps I know there not modeling but they were the beginnings of what we now know as modelers

 

[crgtr]

I do think for the most part, a real tube amp will sound better if it is recorded correctly. I have used a ton of modelers over the years & in the studio (for quick demos) and live. Live was always because of volume issue. If you can't crank the tube amp, the modeler wins in my opinion. Anyway, I recently got a Kemper. I no longer use my real amps live. Even starting to sell a few of them. I've profiled all my amps with Michael Britt from Lonestar & I will say that my tone has never been better. It's 100% consistent and 100% flexible. It doesn't matter what kind of stage volume I have. FOH always gets a perfect signal & my on-stage sound is amazing. The Kemper is very easy to use. No crazy deep menus to deal with.
It would've taken me forever to be able to "profile" with the skill level of Michael, but thankfully he is an amazingly giving person. He's taught me a ton. He is using the Kemper live & in the studio recording their new album. For me it's really cool to hear MY amps blasting back at me alongside of Dumbles, Two-Rocks, Marshalls, Fenders and yes, PRS amps. I'm also getting all my Nashville buddies amps to profile so it feels like I have an NAD every week or so! I am grabbing a Freidman Dirty Shirley, '67 Deluxe, Marshall CS JTM145, Quidley 22 and a Swart ST-Stereo this weekend to add to my arsenal !

So Les, I do mostly agree with you, but I'm pretty damn excited about my new rig right now!