I think I'm cursed (Archon 25)...

Stuff happens. I recently had TWO amps (neither newer, but neither abused). The Mesa (Blue Angel) blew a fuse when coming off standby. Did the usual test of tubes, looking first at the rectifier tube. When it still blew, it was apparent the issue was deeper. Sure enough, there was something in the circuit (other than tubes) that went bad,

On the Swart (AST) it was a repeat issue with horrible static/feedback. The prior tech seemed to have a good reputation, but clearly did NOT fix it. I then found a GOOD tech. Guess what? He saw the problem as soon as he pulled out the chassis......A place where wires came together was NOT soldered (could not tell if it was a problem from the factory or has become undone). The vibrations inside the combo cab were enough to make it put out unbearable sounds.

These are both great sounding amps......At fairly nominal cost, I got both up and running.....Key being someone that knows their stuff.

Naturally, if it is a NEW amp that is still under warranty (or can be returned to the dealer) that should work out even better, aside from the PITA of having to ship gear around if, like me, there is not a factory authorized tech nearby.
 
As an aside, I don't believe in power conditioners that don't A) regulate the voltage, or B) contain an isolation transformer.

Furman makes some very good ones, but the one Corey linked is just a glorified surge protector with a noise filter. It's designed for simple rack mounting along with other equipment so you can use the switch on the rack, and not have to plug the equipment into a floor box that can be inconvenient behind a rack of gear.

In other words, you already have the functional equivalent of one of these most likely, and in any case, it is incapable of doing anything to protect your amp from brownouts and other off-voltage situations.

In truth, even a brownout isn't likely to hurt a tube amp unless it's extreme, hence the common use of variacs to reduce the power at the wall outlet and make the amp distort more. They're just artificial low voltage situations.

Incidentally, the transformers on most tube amps make a surge protector unnecessary, they are quite robust, but if it makes you feel more confident to use one...it can't hurt.
 
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LSchefman said:
As an aside, I don't believe in power conditioners that don't A) regulate the voltage, or B) contain an isolation transformer.

Furman makes some very good ones, but the one Corey linked is just a glorified surge protector with a noise filter. It's designed for simple rack mounting along with other equipment so you can use the switch on the rack, and not have to plug the equipment into a floor box that can be inconvenient behind a rack of gear.

In other words, you already have the functional equivalent of one of these most likely, and in any case, it is incapable of doing anything to protect your amp from brownouts and other off-voltage situations.

In truth, even a brownout isn't likely to hurt a tube amp unless it's extreme, hence the common use of variacs to reduce the power at the wall outlet and make the amp distort more. They're just artificial low voltage situations.

Incidentally, the transformers on most tube amps make a surge protector unnecessary, they are quite robust, but if it makes you feel more confident to use one...it can't hurt.
Click to expand...

Duly noted, I just don't want to go through this nightmare again with any future amp I buy.
 
MistaSnowman said:
Duly noted, I just don't want to go through this nightmare again with any future amp I buy.
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I completely understand!

I felt a little freaky just replacing a tube last week. ;)

Furman does make some very nice products that are actually good to have for amplifiers, including regulated power conditioners, some with iso transformers, and one that stores a certain amount of energy and has the regulated power (but no isolation transformer) and is meant for using guitar amplifiers at venues where AC power might be a problem.

The only issue with the good power conditioners and isolation transformers is that they're relatively expensive, as they start in the $250 or so range and go up from there. I dunno about you, but I hate spending a few hundred bucks on something that doesn't make music!

I use an isolation transformer made by a company called Equi=Tech in my studio that does all that stuff and also puts out balanced power, which reduces line noise in everything that's plugged into it by about 8-10 db (they say it's higher, but we checked it with an oscilloscope, and 8-10 db is still a very audible reduction in noise floor). The transformer completely isolates the AC going into my studio equipment from the outside AC line, and generates clean AC.

A balanced AC line is something relatively recent, having only been around for about 15-20 years in commercial form. It works a lot like a humbucking pickup, the legs of the AC are phased to cancel out hum and noise. It also has industrial strength transformers and surge protection.

If you want to know more about AC power and its problems, there is a lot of info on the Equi=Tech site.

http://www.equitech.com/articles/articles.html

But I don't use it with my guitar amps, because they don't really need it. I plug 'em straight into the wall.
 
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Double Un-Bangin'!

I've been known to intimidate amps with only my presence in the room. If the third one needs a strong talking to before you get going let me know.
 
CoreyT said:
Let us know what you find out, very curious why two have failed for you now.
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I'm at a loss for words myself. I've been careful not to do anything that would cause my amps to fail, yet they failed anyway. I can say that everyone here have been supportive, and I really appreciate that.
 
LSchefman said:
As an aside, I don't believe in power conditioners that don't A) regulate the voltage, or B) contain an isolation transformer.

Furman makes some very good ones, but...is just a glorified surge protector with a noise filter.
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Yes. In my industry (IT/computer/technology) power protection is essential, and we've experienced first hand the difference between business-class protection and not. The bottomline is that quality protection is not cheap, so if you paid less than $200 for your solution, you are under equipped. Whether in a best-of-breed data center or a small server room, we use the same brands (different models, obviously). And this is what I use to protect my gear in the studio and at gigs.

Granted, owning a considerable number of UPSes (uninterruptible power supplies) for my servers is an easy way for me to justify dropping these into music applications, but you don't have to spend huge $$ to protect your amp and other sensitive electronics. The APC SmartUPS line covers intelligent regulation and filtration on a budget. I carry a SmartUPS750 to gigs unless I need to carry the whole band (within reason...excluding the bass player) when I bring a 1500. It smooths out the dangers of generators, cleans up fluorescent light ballast and other 60Hz noise, and flattens-out voltage fluctuations. And though you have to lug a big chunk of lead and probably don't need the battery backup function, it's still 1/4 the cost of the equivalent Furman option.

Nothing makes me madder than crap power that changes my amp tone. Using a UPS eliminated that problem. And after the next near lightning strike fries everything in sight EXCEPT the gear on the UPS...
 
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Boogie said:
Yes. In my industry (IT/computer/technology) power protection is essential, and we've experienced first hand the difference between business-class protection and not. The bottomline is that quality protection is not cheap, so if you paid less than $200 for your solution, you are under equipped. Whether in a best-of-breed data center or a small server room, we use the same brands (different models, obviously). And this is what I use to protect my gear in the studio and at gigs.

Granted, owning a considerable number of UPSes (uninterruptible power supplies) for my servers is an easy way for me to justify dropping these into music applications, but you don't have to spend huge $$ to protect your amp and other sensitive electronics. The APC SmartUPS line covers intelligent regulation and filtration on a budget. I carry a SmartUPS750 to gigs unless I need to carry the whole band (within reason...excluding the bass player) when I bring a 1500. It smooths out the dangers of generators, cleans up fluorescent light ballast and other 60Hz noise, and flattens-out voltage fluctuations. And though you have to lug a big chunk of lead and probably don't need the battery backup function, it's still 1/4 the cost of the equivalent Furman option.

Nothing makes me madder than crap power that changes my amp tone. Using a UPS eliminated that problem. And after the next near lightning strike fries everything in sight EXCEPT the gear on the UPS...
Click to expand...

It's funny that you mention the IT products, because that's what I had my old studio tech mod and put in my studio in the mid 90s. It was a very large SOLA isolation transformer that he found used at one of the computer conference shows -- gosh that thing weighed close to 200 pounds, and made a LOUD transformer vibration noise. I couldn't put it in my studio, so we actually soundproofed my HVAC room soup to nuts, and floated the SOLA on rubber mounts that didn't transmit the vibration. We then wired it up to all of the AC outlets in my studio, and attached it to a deep earth ground. The Furman was modded to put out balanced power, too.

That's when I discovered what real power conditioning was. That old thing reduced my noise floor by close to 8 db, very substantial.

But as I said, the SOLA was very loud and noisy, so I replaced it with a Furman AC1220, and later in my new studio replaced that with the Equi=Tech box, because the Furman started to make physical noises via its transformer (eventually they all do this).

My tech also proved to me that most surge protectors actually induce their own AC line noise in the audio, using his oscilloscope. So I relied on the isolation transformers to handle any surges, and got rid of all of my surge protectors, replacing them with plain metal AC boxes that I still use to distribute power in the room from the Equi=Tech.

I also employed a star grounding system, with a couple of grounding blocks that were attached to the Sola via thick woven metal ribbons. When you have several racks of equipment and a patchbay system, there are lots of possibilities for grounding issues, and additional grounding wires are sometimes needed for the chassis of some of the gear, and these are attached to a grounding block. Fact is, some manufacturers, even good ones, take grounding shortcuts, so this is often necessary.

Fortunately, in my "in the box" studio that hasn't got much hardware, it's not needed, and I say fortunately, because it drove me crazy to have to bring my tech in for a day to sort out grounding problems simply because I added something to the rack, and he was slow, which meant I was down for a day. Though my tech passed away a few years ago, and I miss the guy. He was a very talented guy with a degree in electrical engineering, and that's rare in the studio world.

I know, long story. But I've had to learn all this stuff the hard way.
 
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Since we switched over talking about clean power, what is your recommendation for a semi-professional guitar player that just want to have a rack mount power conditioner that has basic functionality? Furmann stuff? Thanks
 
iR4lf said:
Since we switched over talking about clean power, what is your recommendation for a semi-professional guitar player that just want to have a rack mount power conditioner that has basic functionality? Furmann stuff? Thanks
Click to expand...

I've been using a Monster Power PRO 2500 rack mount (single slot) for a year. Had problems prior to using it, and haven't had any since. I also have a Furman AC215 that I use in the basement on an amp. I do not have the Furman in a rack, although it can be mounted in one.
 
iR4lf said:
Since we switched over talking about clean power, what is your recommendation for a semi-professional guitar player that just want to have a rack mount power conditioner that has basic functionality? Furmann stuff? Thanks
Click to expand...

What is it that you need a power conditioner to do? Basic functionality is kind of an amorphous term, but I'd take it to mean "actually does something you might need."

The most basic rackmount piece that actually does something for guitar gear is this one, that actually does voltage regulation in addition to the usually unnecessary "cleaning up the power." These run around $400:

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=P-1800AR

bodia said:
I've been using a Monster Power PRO 2500 rack mount (single slot) for a year. Had problems prior to using it, and haven't had any since. I also have a Furman AC215 that I use in the basement on an amp. I do not have the Furman in a rack, although it can be mounted in one.
Click to expand...

Not that I want to burst your bubble, but the Monster Power Pro 2500 is just a surge protector and EMI/RFI filter, which is exactly what you get in a $44 Furman power strip.

The AC215 is actually a very good surge protector because of its multi stage design. Remember, though, that a tube amp is very robust because of its transformers, and would probably only be damaged in the event of a lightning strike. Whether the Furman would clamp a powerful lightning strike is anyone's guess.
 
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I don't know that I totally agree with your assessment. A power conditioner is designed to do just that. Basically, we're talking about surge protection and "filtering". If you want to add voltage regulation as well, then we're talking about something more than a power conditioner. That's why they call it a voltage regulator. As for the "usually unnecessary 'cleaning up the power'", I am at a loss for this statement. Whether this comment was directed at the needs of a valve driven device I'm not sure. I can tell you this, having worked for a company that sells electronic devices for almost 30 years I've seen my share of dirty power related issues and the positive effect that basic power conditioners (something more than a power strip) can have on reducing damage over the long term and reduced service calls. Dirty power isn't all about a one time event, but about the long term effects of poor power on sensitive electronic circuits.

As for bursting my bubble with respect to the Monster, you may be right on that. I had a brand new Mark V that was dropping volume after 30 minutes of playing and I was looking for something I could have that day. There were a couple of things that I was looking for;multiple isolated filtering sections (something you won't get in a power strip), and a digital voltage display. I got both of those things with the Monster. Plus, it was available at the closest GC, which meant I could see and touch it, and have it home in 10 minutes. Since plugging it in I haven't had a single issue with volume drop. Prior to that, I had issues with every valve amp I've had in the past. It solved my problems.

PS - love you man
 
WriteNoob said:
Just picked this up, on the big A, after reading this. Been meaning to, ever since my own Archon 25 showed up. Thanks for the link!
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You are welcome.

I do like the looks of the $400 one above that Les posted.

P-1800AR-front_page.jpg

P-1800AR-rear_page.jpg


Even though it is a rack mount, the one I have now is too.
I looked at a few mentioned above, and two outlets is not enough, hence whey I like the rack mount ones with eight inlets.

I have three amps to hook up, the Fryette amp too, two pedal boards, plus the power supply for the Digitech Trio I just got.
So that uses seven outlets alone.
I may look into getting the Furman P-1800 AR later.
I just wish there was a way to display it since it is cool looking.
My current Furman is on the floor behind the Mesa dual stack.
 
CoreyT said:
Good gosh, I thought that Furman P 1800 AR was around $400 like Les mentioned above, they are close to 9 bills.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/P1800AR
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I checked and found one on Amazon at the $400 price. Had no idea.

EDIT: There are evidently two Furman 1800 rackmount devices, one regulates the voltage and is more expensive, the other simply has a power reservoir like their $400 floor box. Sorry about that!

I use this, it's even worse on the wallet:

http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/So...urce=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=shoppingengine

But it balances the power, has an isolation transformer, does voltage regulation and has filtering.
 
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bodia said:
I can tell you this, having worked for a company that sells electronic devices for almost 30 years I've seen my share of dirty power related issues and the positive effect that basic power conditioners (something more than a power strip) can have on reducing damage over the long term and reduced service calls. Dirty power isn't all about a one time event, but about the long term effects of poor power on sensitive electronic circuits.
Click to expand...

Well, what I was getting at is that EMI and RFI filtering aren't going to do much to prevent damage to sensitive electronic circuits. Also, that most tube amps don't really qualify as a sensitive electronic circuit that's susceptible to such damage.

Before the mid 1980s, sensitive digital gear was extremely rare in home environments, rehearsal studios, stages, and other places tube amps were used. The idea of a power conditioner was unknown to most folks.

Yet tens of thousands of tube guitar amplifiers survived and thrived dating back to the late 30s, to this day. That's partly because a tube amp isn't a very sensitive circuit, in fact, it's a primitive circuit dating from World War One, that entered the general marketplace with the advent of radio shortly afterward. In fact, until the 1950s, all there were to amplify radios, televisions, etc., in homes, cars, etc., were tube amplifiers. I can only guess at how many of these have survived over the years. They never needed EMI/RFI filters.

The only service most of these devices ever had was a change of tubes, and even that was pretty infrequent. People only changed them when a tube wore out. After a while the caps needed changing, and most never even had that and still worked for a long time!

Computers changed everything, because brownouts and surges could scramble their memory, and could scramble other digital gear as well. However, the truth is that today even most computers are much less sensitive to this stuff than they were even 15 years ago, when it was truly a necessity.

Possibly your Mesa had another issue? Possibly there's simply a lovely coincidence?

But tell me how an unregulated surge protector and EFI/RFI filter could possibly prevent this volume drop problem with your Mesa?

I must be wrong about the Monster thing, maybe it also regulates the voltage, in which case it is worth what you paid? Incidentally, I love you too, man! ;)
 
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