Amp Transparency. It Was Once A Thing. Is It Still?

[László]

look, i am an old man and therefore transparency is a straight wire with gain. i have a rolls di that belonged to alan parsons (also an old man) and when we spoke about it back in the 90s he agreed with me.

But there's this, and it really can't be avoided in tube guitar amps:

Most tube amps are based on an RCA 1930s radio circuit design that always had significant distortion, on the order of 10% or more THD even played squeaky-clean. That THD level is ALWAYS going to color the tone of the instrument.

Throw in a speaker, which adds its own distortion, and a speaker cabinet that adds its color, and there's no such thing as a transparent amp.

However, I'm using the term 'transparent' in a relative sense, since a truly transparent tube amp would be a high fidelity direct box, or something like an Audio Research tube preamp and tube power amp through a high fidelity speaker (not all tube circuits distort very much, the high fidelity tube amps started being made in the late '50s and '60s).

So I'll reiterate:

With a transparent amp, you hear whatever the coloration and distortion the amp adds, but you ALSO hear the tone of the guitar quite clearly.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

However, I'm using the term 'transparent' in a relative sense, since a truly transparent tube amp would be a high fidelity direct box, or something like an Audio Research tube preamp and tube power amp through a high fidelity speaker

I have said often before, that if you plug your electric guitar into a truly flat, and transparent system such as a high end stereo system, the results are usually not very good. (I have done it with several systems). Flat and truly clean is not a flattering look for most electric guitars. So I agree with the way you phrased this. Guitar tube amps can manipulate frequency response and add harmonic content, and still be transparent. But not as transparent as a high end stereo system.

it is in fact the frequency plot and harmonic content that are designed into guitar amps, that give each one much of it's personality.

And, since we're discussing audio.... this is all "IMHO/YMMV/consult your physician..."

 

[dmatthews]

And a speaker.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

And a speaker.

Yeah, the speakers add as much flavor as the amp, or even more in some cases.

(insert standard audio discussion disclosure here).

 

[JasonE]

Speakers and cabinets are a huge part of the sound of an amp. I have plugged a few amps into the same cabinets and it is hard to tell which amp is feeding the cabinet most of the time.

 

[Lewguitar]

Speakers and cabinets are a huge part of the sound of an amp. I have plugged a few amps into the same cabinets and it is hard to tell which amp is feeding the cabinet most of the time.

I like Celestion 12's.

I have a stash of three old Celestion G12 alnico speakers from a 60's Vox Super Beatle and those are my favorites.

Classic Celestion tone but more... what's the word? Transparent!

I have a couple in a Matchless 2 x 12 cab the size of an AC30 and my Vox AC30HWHD head sits on top of it.

The third G12 is in a 60's blackface Princeton Reverb I put a custom 1 x 12 speaker board in so I could use a 12" speaker. It's an easily reversable mod.

 

[László]

I have said often before, that if you plug your electric guitar into a truly flat, and transparent system such as a high end stereo system, the results are usually not very good. (I have done it with several systems). Flat and truly clean is not a flattering look for most electric guitars. So I agree with the way you phrased this. Guitar tube amps can manipulate frequency response and add harmonic content, and still be transparent. But not as transparent as a high end stereo system.

it is in fact the frequency plot and harmonic content that are designed into guitar amps, that give each one much of it's personality.

And, since we're discussing audio.... this is all "IMHO/YMMV/consult your physician..."

Yup. For me, going direct into a console never worked. The electric guitar seems to please the ear with the added coloration of the amp and speaker cab.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Yup. For me, going direct into a console never worked. The electric guitar seems to please the ear with the added coloration of the amp and speaker cab.

Yeah, except for a couple cool exceptions (a few Steely Dan solos that were guitar>orange squeezer>board), I've never heard much that was worth keeping from that approach. We need color! (And I likes me some distortion, too! ).

 

[JasonE]

I like Celestion 12's.

I have a stash of three old Celestion G12 alnico speakers from a 60's Vox Super Beatle and those are my favorites.

Classic Celestion tone but more... what's the word? Transparent!

I have a couple in a Matchless 2 x 12 cab the size of an AC30 and my Vox AC30HWHD head sits on top of it.

The third G12 is in a 60's blackface Princeton Reverb I put a custom 1 x 12 speaker board in so I could use a 12" speaker. It's an easily reversable mod.

I have some combo amps that have stock speakers in them that sound good in those amps, Peavey, Fender, Egnater. These are all 12" speakers and all but one are open back. All of the external cabs I have are loaded with Celestion 12" speakers, V30 and Creamback 65, and 75. Those are the ones that I have been drawn to. However, I have a Marsh amp that is basically a hand wired modified Fender Vibrolux. It has 10" Ragin Cajun speakers in it. That has such a nice warm clean tone to it. That is what immediately sold me on the amp. It takes drive pedals very well. I have played just about every gig with that amp over the past 7 years. There is just something about those 10" speakers that I really like. They seem to keep the OD nice and tight. I like the midrange response of them as well.

 

[László]

Yeah, except for a couple cool exceptions (a few Steely Dan solos that were guitar>orange squeezer>board), I've never heard much that was worth keeping from that approach. We need color! (And I likes me some distortion, too! ).

For a while the big thing in funk music was to go direct, and George Harrison also did some recording direct with the console's input being overdriven as he wanted to crank high frequency EQ for some reason on one or two Beatle records. But the old EMI consoles had tube preamps, V72s and V76s made by Telefunken that were brought to market in the 1950s and 1960s, so Harrison was getting some grit by overdriving them, it was just less amp-like.

Because I MUST try everything, I tried it with a vintage Telfunken V76 preamp at a friend's studio, a tube Universal Audio preamp, and using solid state direct boxes.

I really hated the results - for the style of music I do. Even with a Strat (which was used both by Harrison and various funk players).

 

[Matte82]

My .02. Neutral and transparent should have the same meaning when it comes to guitar amps, but don't and can't. Neutral to me is fairly standardized. No coloration what so ever. Like plugging a guitar direct into console. That is essentially neutral. I say essentially because different consoles do have different "flavors', but they're all very clean and basically striving for neutral.

In recording, and hi-fi, and live sound, and almost everywhere else dealing with audio, "transparent" means the same thing as neutral. But in the guitar world not so much. Because as we've determined "neutral" sounds bad. This is because guitar pickups are actually pretty mid heavy. Most guitar preamps are voiced to cut the mids and boost treble and bass. Most tone stack are near "neutral" with the mids dimed and bass and treble turned off. And that's not even getting into what a guitar speaker and cab do to the sound.

So starting from there, we can get to what I think transparency is when it comes to amps and pedals and such. Take a cheap 8" speaker practice amp and turn the gain way up. Set the tone controls to where ever suits you. Now plug in any guitar you want. Pick vastly different guitars if you can. A Strat with low output single coils. Maybe something pointy with active pickups. A Murphy Lab LP. (I would say any PRS, but they shouldn't be treated like this). They will likely all sound near identical through that amp Because the amp isn't very transparent. It takes whatever you put in, and even with vastly different guitars puts out the same sound. And admittedly the more gain/OD/distortion the harder it is to hear any differences, even in good amps. But with more "transparent" amps, even with a healthy amount of distortion, you can still hear the guitar. And changing guitars will sound different. For me one of the most famous of these type of non transparent amps is the original Mesa Rectifier Solo amps. I had a Dual Recto and never liked it. Probably because I wanted something more transparent and just didn't know it. But we all know what a recto sounds like. It doesn't really matter what guitar you plug in. A recto is going to recto.

And honestly you need a good speaker and cab too. Those can pigeon hole you into "a sound" also. And I can't think of any true "high gain" amp that is super transparent. It's just the nature of distortion. The more you have, the more it masks. Although my CAZ 45 does alright. But even then I don't run "recto" levels of gain.

IMO this is also where modelers can fall apart. And I've been using modeling amps since my I got my Johnson Millennium in the late 90's. So I want them to work. But often times you start hearing the "amp" more than the guitar. Even at more modest levels of distortion. They start to make any guitar sound like the same guitar.

So to me that is transparency. An amp, that even with a fair amount of gain will sound quite different, when different guitars are plugged in. And I guess the more the guitar sound different, the more transparent that amp is.

Okay I've probably typed too much. I'll stop for now.

 

[Lewguitar]

When I first heard Van Halen I loved the tone he got. There was a sense of space around the notes and his tone wasn't all buzzy, thick and compressed.

As time went on, and Eddie started using his own EVH amps and EVH guitars, he lost that wonderful open tone he got with the Marshall and his single humbucker Franken-Strat.

Such a shame.

 

[László]

My .02. Neutral and transparent should have the same meaning when it comes to guitar amps, but don't and can't. Neutral to me is fairly standardized. No coloration what so ever. Like plugging a guitar direct into console. That is essentially neutral. I say essentially because different consoles do have different "flavors', but they're all very clean and basically striving for neutral.

In recording, and hi-fi, and live sound, and almost everywhere else dealing with audio, "transparent" means the same thing as neutral. But in the guitar world not so much. Because as we've determined "neutral" sounds bad. This is because guitar pickups are actually pretty mid heavy. Most guitar preamps are voiced to cut the mids and boost treble and bass. Most tone stack are near "neutral" with the mids dimed and bass and treble turned off. And that's not even getting into what a guitar speaker and cab do to the sound.

So starting from there, we can get to what I think transparency is when it comes to amps and pedals and such. Take a cheap 8" speaker practice amp and turn the gain way up. Set the tone controls to where ever suits you. Now plug in any guitar you want. Pick vastly different guitars if you can. A Strat with low output single coils. Maybe something pointy with active pickups. A Murphy Lab LP. (I would say any PRS, but they shouldn't be treated like this). They will likely all sound near identical through that amp Because the amp isn't very transparent. It takes whatever you put in, and even with vastly different guitars puts out the same sound. And admittedly the more gain/OD/distortion the harder it is to hear any differences, even in good amps. But with more "transparent" amps, even with a healthy amount of distortion, you can still hear the guitar. And changing guitars will sound different. For me one of the most famous of these type of non transparent amps is the original Mesa Rectifier Solo amps. I had a Dual Recto and never liked it. Probably because I wanted something more transparent and just didn't know it. But we all know what a recto sounds like. It doesn't really matter what guitar you plug in. A recto is going to recto.

And honestly you need a good speaker and cab too. Those can pigeon hole you into "a sound" also. And I can't think of any true "high gain" amp that is super transparent. It's just the nature of distortion. The more you have, the more it masks. Although my CAZ 45 does alright. But even then I don't run "recto" levels of gain.

IMO this is also where modelers can fall apart. And I've been using modeling amps since my I got my Johnson Millennium in the late 90's. So I want them to work. But often times you start hearing the "amp" more than the guitar. Even at more modest levels of distortion. They start to make any guitar sound like the same guitar.

So to me that is transparency. An amp, that even with a fair amount of gain will sound quite different, when different guitars are plugged in. And I guess the more the guitar sound different, the more transparent that amp is.

Okay I've probably typed too much. I'll stop for now.

Definitely a good read!

 

[László]

When I first heard Van Halen I loved the tone he got. There was a sense of space around the notes and his tone wasn't all buzzy, thick and compressed.

As time went on, and Eddie started using his own EVH amps and EVH guitars, he lost that wonderful open tone he got with the Marshall and his single humbucker Franken-Strat.

Such a shame.

I dug his early Marshal tone, too.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

IMO this is also where modelers can fall apart. And I've been using modeling amps since my I got my Johnson Millennium in the late 90's. So I want them to work. But often times you start hearing the "amp" more than the guitar. Even at more modest levels of distortion. They start to make any guitar sound like the same guitar.

Completely agree, and have been saying this for years. In fact, I said it here recently... probably in this thread. While I think it has gotten better, it's still "there." Here is my real world example. When I'm playing through the Archon or ATMA (or any other amp I've owned in the last few years) if I switch guitars, I IMMEDIATELY start dialing the amps tone controls, and even the gain and level controls usually. Plugging in a different guitar sounds VERY different, and must be compensated for. Sometimes I even switch cabs to get there. But... when I switch guitars when using a modeler, even if it's as dramatic as switching from the Axis to the Silver Sky, many times I only change the presence. Or, even if I do have to turn more dials, it's still not as clear afterwards that it's STILL a different guitar. Many times, a few quick changes makes them sound VERY close to the same.

I'm not allowed to talk on this subject or I'd have more to say. But I agree with pretty much everything you said.

 

[Lewguitar]

I have some combo amps that have stock speakers in them that sound good in those amps, Peavey, Fender, Egnater. These are all 12" speakers and all but one are open back. All of the external cabs I have are loaded with Celestion 12" speakers, V30 and Creamback 65, and 75. Those are the ones that I have been drawn to. However, I have a Marsh amp that is basically a hand wired modified Fender Vibrolux. It has 10" Ragin Cajun speakers in it. That has such a nice warm clean tone to it. That is what immediately sold me on the amp. It takes drive pedals very well. I have played just about every gig with that amp over the past 7 years. There is just something about those 10" speakers that I really like. They seem to keep the OD nice and tight. I like the midrange response of them as well.

I like 10's a lot. But it has to be more than one 10 if I'm playing out. So two minimum. One 10 just doesn't move enough air.

I can live with one 12 live. But if I can get away with it I bring two Deluxe Reverbs or two Princeton Reverbs to gigs.

Just to move more air.

They don't have to be cranked. I rarely turn them up passed volume three or four.

 

[Matte82]

Completely agree, and have been saying this for years. In fact, I said it here recently... probably in this thread. While I think it has gotten better, it's still "there." Here is my real world example. When I'm playing through the Archon or ATMA (or any other amp I've owned in the last few years) if I switch guitars, I IMMEDIATELY start dialing the amps tone controls, and even the gain and level controls usually. Plugging in a different guitar sounds VERY different, and must be compensated for. Sometimes I even switch cabs to get there. But... when I switch guitars when using a modeler, even if it's as dramatic as switching from the Axis to the Silver Sky, many times I only change the presence. Or, even if I do have to turn more dials, it's still not as clear afterwards that it's STILL a different guitar. Many times, a few quick changes makes them sound VERY close to the same.

I'm not allowed to talk on this subject or I'd have more to say. But I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Yeah I went from owning the millennium to the recto. I bought the millennium after playing one in a store and thinking the recto model sounded awesome. Well the other guy in the band just bought a recto. And volume wise I could keep up but it just didn’t cut the same. So I bought a recto. And it was better. But just a recto. So for years I struggled trying to find a tone I liked. Don’t get me wrong I could make it work. But just wasn’t happy.

Then the amp that turned it around for me? A zvex nano. That is honestly one of the most transparent amps I’ve owned. I mean there’s one knob and some switches. But it always sounded pretty good. And def kept the character of each guitar.

And then I went down the cabinet/speaker rabbit hole.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Then the amp that turned it around for me? A zvex nano. That is honestly one of the most transparent amps I’ve owned. I mean there’s one knob and some switches. But it always sounded pretty good. And def kept the character of each guitar.

In the simplest terms (not bringing in different types of caps and resistors in the signal path, and OTs etc.) the simpler the circuit, the purer and more transparent it sounds. Again, in general.

And then I went down the cabinet/speaker rabbit hole.

Indeed. And ironically, as we discuss amp transparency, we often pick speakers and cabs JUST because of the colorations they introduce into our tones.

 

[László]

Indeed. And ironically, as we discuss amp transparency, we often pick speakers and cabs JUST because of the colorations they introduce into our tones.

It's hard to escape amp coloration, even with a simple circuit. Amp circuits so primitive compared to studio tube gear, or tube hi fi gear, the coloration from THD is pretty high, usually at least 10%, where with studio gear it's .01%.

No surprise to you as an amp builder, of course you know this. I. mention it in case others don't.

I figure if an amp sounds "like an amp" but I can still hear note definition, the basic tone of the guitar, and it still sounds nice, I'm in business.