Amp Transparency. It Was Once A Thing. Is It Still?

[JasonE]

One huge variable in all of this is what are the speakers and cabinet that the amp is plugged into. Is it a combo? Is it a sealed cabinet, open back? To me the speakers and cabinet are the things that can be changed that will change your sound the most.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Sure.

I've been doing this since 1976, so I'm not as amenable to being "educated" as some around here maybe. Call me thin-skinned, but you'd get the same response out of most decent players over the age of 55 I'd wager.

Recovering audiophile since about 79. Been talking about things like this since I was in college. I'm sorry, but I saw the word "transparency" and thought it was a discussion. Not sure how my response is "educating you" but I certainly didn't mean it that way. When you get into conversations about this stuff, they can get deep fast, and sometimes when you only address one aspect of it, someone may not be clear on how the other aspects go with that. I didn't think that mentioning that there were other aspects to it was out of line for the conversation.

But that said, I am a "decent player over 55" and if most decent players over 55 responded like this to a discussion, I wouldn't be here. Not sure what I said that could be taken offensively, but some others seem to be interested in the discussion. If I'm being offensive, I can bow out of the discussion.

 

[JasonE]

Recovering audiophile since about 79. Been talking about things like this since I was in college. I'm sorry, but I saw the word "transparency" and thought it was a discussion. Not sure how my response is "educating you" but I certainly didn't mean it that way. When you get into conversations about this stuff, they can get deep fast, and sometimes when you only address one aspect of it, someone may not be clear on how the other aspects go with that. I didn't think that mentioning that there were other aspects to it was out of line for the conversation.

But that said, I am a "decent player over 55" and if most decent players over 55 responded like this to a discussion, I wouldn't be here. Not sure what I said that could be taken offensively, but some others seem to be interested in the discussion. If I'm being offensive, I can bow out of the discussion.

I am also a "decent player over 55" according to my birth certificate and comments from other local guitar players gigging the same places I have.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I am also a "decent player over 55" according to my birth certificate and comments from other local guitar players gigging the same places I have.

Yeah, but this is the Internet, so I can just say it without any real proof.

 

[Greywolf]

Not to ruffle anyones feathers .. my definition of a Transparent amp is one that allows the most accurate picture of the instrument , uncolored . I would concur that this also includes a speaker cabinet that compliments the amp, and to an extent an instrument that transmits an adqaute signal to the amp . If you are blessed with an instrument that benefits from a rich dynamic range , then you are into "sonic gold" .

I found it interesting that at the last 2 Artisan Guitar shows ( top luthiers invitational) the vast majority of booths used Henriksen amps , small jazz units . They were really quite nice , super clean and clear and warm. To me they are a paradigm for a "transparent amp "

 

[andy474x]

This is a great thread!

@LSchefman , I know you’ve heard me say it before… in the last couple years I tried a nice handful of Mesa amps, and for the most part, I felt and heard exactly what you described - my PRS amps had more “transparency” to them, letting more of the guitar through. The exceptions being the clean mode on the Fillmore (why don’t I just buy it for that? What the hell?) and the Electradyne, which was much like my Custom 50.

This ties into another very hot topic as of late, digital modeling. Not to derail the thread, but the Mesa amps, as well as some others out there, do the same thing that digital modelers do, in my opinion, which is to filter and “persuade” a signal so much that it has no choice but to turn into the intended sound. It’s like bowling with bumpers up - they’re pushing you to roll a strike every time. Which technically gets the job done, but it also cheats us out of much of the art and finesse of what we can do without that safety net of having no choice but the sound a certain way,

 

[Deleted member 5962]

This ties into another very hot topic as of late, digital modeling. Not to derail the thread, but the Mesa amps, as well as some others out there, do the same thing that digital modelers do, in my opinion, which is to filter and “persuade” a signal so much that it has no choice but to turn into the intended sound. It’s like bowling with bumpers up - they’re pushing you to roll a strike every time. Which technically gets the job done, but it also cheats us out of much of the art and finesse of what we can do without that safety net of having no choice but the sound a certain way,

I agree with this completely, with regards to some Mesa amps. I didn’t notice it anywhere near the same degree in my Trans Atlantic amps, that I did in the Mark amps I owned.

 

[Wyzard]

Not sure how my response is "educating you" but I certainly didn't mean it that way.

Just to be clear, it was: "Keep in mind, there are many other aspects in play here, other than "just" transparency. Some people think transparent means flat. It doesn't." that you started with, along with the original direct quote. As we all know, how our posts are "heard" is a slippery business. Nonetheless, I'm good.

Oh, and the Hiwatt is an awesome musical instrument - but one you have to commit to quite seriously, in order for it to give up its best tones. It has a great deal of what makes a Steel String Singer both wonderful and fearsome, all at the same time.

At my age, and having spent over half my playing life as a bassist, even relatively minor shortcuts to great guitar sound can seem quite appealing.

~~~~~~~~

Oh, and I go back to '73 as a (far-from-recovered) hi-fi nerd too. I reckon my first high-end experience of tone was a Futterman/Dahlquist setup in my local store. These days, I use a lot of gear that my pro-audio buddies have refurbished, re-purposed or re-built ......all solid-state, however! Calrec and Elcom pre-amplifiers, Crimson and Chord power amps, Coutant power supplies, ATC, Rogers and Spendor speakers etc.

 

[Black Plaid]

It’s all opinion, no need to take it one way or another. Like most words, transparency means whatever it means to you, and matters along the same lines!

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

Without a shared meaning, one cannot have discourse, if i use a word to mean one thing, and you use it to mean something completely different, we cannot have a meaningful (LOL) discussion about something.

Transparency may not have the same meaning literally in the wider general English speaking population in this context, but as long as we have a reasonable agreement among the subculture things work.

I think that it means different things to different people is what our problem is here.

 

[RickP]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

Without a shared meaning, one cannot have discourse, if i use a word to mean one thing, and you use it to mean something completely different, we cannot have a meaningful (LOL) discussion about something.

Transparency may not have the same meaning literally in the wider general English speaking population in this context, but as long as we have a reasonable agreement among the subculture things work.

I think that it means different things to different people is what our problem is here.

No problem. I’m just saying, as is apparent here, that transparency means different things to different guitarists. You and I agree there. It’s an applied meaning, like “chime” or “bloom.” People hijacked these words to try defining a concept, not an absolute. We’re generally in the same subject matter, but not locked in on the same exact meaning, because there isn’t one.

My intent in the post was to diffuse the anger in the exchange. The meaning of transparency can be whatever you call it, if it matters that much to you… and it’s nothing worth fighting over. I hope that’s something we can all agree on.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Hey what do I know, I’ve had this little fella for nearly 30 years now.



I’m using multiple pedals, switcher, attenuator, extension cab, so I’m guessing that all makes a difference too.

Lack of knowledge and a comparison or two, factor in as well.

 

[László]

THIS is what transparency is. The ability to clearly hear everything in the signal change and every little change you make. The ability to clearly hear the difference in two guitars that might be the same model but have slightly different pickups. Thinks like that. It’s a clarity, or… transparency, that allows everything else in front of it to be clear.

In general, the simpler the circuit, the more transparent. Many individual parts can also contribute to this, such as one cap vs another. And, again in very general terms, cleaner can be more transparent. While amps can have gain and still be transparent, but the more gain you add, the gain can obscure some of the clarity.

This can be part of transparency, but is not the general definition of what transparency is. There are also some old classic amps, that can be very transparent, but can can get fuzzy when pushed, and this can cause a loss of transparency.

The rest of this, is general observations from the amps I’ve owned, played, built or modded, and much of it applies to pedals as well. I believe that as a general rule, all other things being equal (meaning parts quality, etc.) the simpler the circuit, the more transparent the amp is or can be. The more circuitry you add, whether it’s gain stages, tone stacks, etc., the more transparency you lose.

Things like switching through the pickup positions, rolling a tone control just a little, changing guitar cables (can opened. LOL) and all those things like that are just much more clearly audible, with a transparent amp.

I feel this is still one of the weak points of digital. I definitely hear a homogenization of these little things when using a modeler. And, even as much gain as it has, I think those little things are much more clearly audible through my Archon gain channel, than they were with the Mark V. Now, one look in the Mark V could make you “hear what you see” because the thing has ever thing you ever hear about that causes lack of transparency. It’s ALL in there! A metric crap ton of caps and resistors, relays, switches and…. RIBBON CABLES! All of it. Still, as much as I liked that amp (thought for years it was my dream amp) I A/B’d them for months before selling the Mark V.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[László]

Interesting topic Les. My (purely personal) take on this might be summarized as: "be careful what you wish for........"


I have nicely balanced pairs of both Two Rocks and Boogies: Custom Reverb Sig and LTD, and MkIIA and MkIIC+. My CRS has a clearer voice than the LTD, and the MkIIA has a similar relationship to the MkIIC+ in terms of "hearing all the way through".

I wouldn't say I prefer either end of these particular polarities, except in specific circumstances - in fact, I spend as much time using the two amps that define the mid-points between these pairs as I do at their extremes. That's to say, with my Two Rock Akoya and MkIIB Coliseum.

So no absolutes here in terms of ultimate preference..... it's all down to the musical setting.


One thing's sure, however - when I want to hear as little "fur" as possible at rational volumes, and using any of these amps, then the Custom Reverb Sig paired with a low-wind single-coil pickup seems to get nearest to that ideal.

And yet...... and yet........ I'm aware, even at that point, of some amp "editorializing": all I have to do is plug in my Hiwatt DR103, with no pedals in the chain, and I have to work a lot harder to get "music" out of the combination of amp and guitar.



So maybe there are "absolutes" that really do get all the way down to the bone, the "truth" of what's coming off the hands/guitar. Do I generally want such alarming clarity?

Speaking as a decent journeyman player - one who can use a little extra "padding" - the answer's mostly no

Amps should apply a little 'more' to the mix. Play a guitar through a recording console if you want to hear a terrible sound (yeah, I know George Harrison and some funk players did it, and the tone sucked as far as I'm concerned).

I played my Custom Reverb sig with fur on every note. Just a little, and it still sounded transparent to me, the tone of the guitar and pickups shined.

It's the same with my PRS CAD amps.

Not so with my Mesas, but that's OK.

 

[László]

Hey what do I know, I’ve had this little fella for nearly 30 years now.

That's just too f#cking long to live with one amp and not add more.

Get with the program!

 

[László]

I am not sure I know what a transparent amp is.

Simple.

With a transparent amp, you hear whatever the coloration and distortion is, but you ALSO hear the tone of the guitar quite clearly.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

That's just too f#cking long to live with one amp and not add more.

Get with the program!

Hey I’m only just introducing the Santana into the AR harem. These things have to be done gradually

 

[JasonE]

Simple.

With a transparent amp, you hear whatever the coloration and distortion is, but you ALSO hear the tone of the guitar quite clearly.

I have the feeling that I hear what you are talking about but have never really focused on it. What I mean is that I have some amps that I gravitate toward, as well as OD pedals. I like them because of the clarity and note separation that I hear in them. I can definitely hear the differences in the guitars through my rig. I have had other guitar players that have come up and played my rig that tell me it is really good and they wished theirs had the tone and touch sensitivity that mine has. One of my friends has told me that he has never heard my guitar sound bad at a gig.

There is a guy in my area that played with Miles Davis for a while in his career. I met him in a little hole in the wall bar playing in a band that barely had enough room to setup and play. His tone was one of the best I have ever heard. I had to see what he was playing through. When I saw it, I about fell over. I then had to talk to this guy after seeing he was playing through a 1x12 combo with a Boss GT-10. He had the midrange dialed in perfectly for that amp. After talking to him I found out that he was only using the power section and speaker in the combo. He was running the GT in the effects return. This guy knew and understood effects and how to dial them in. I asked him how long it took to get that EQ dialed in. He said a few gigs. He was a really nice guy too and a great player.

 

[László]

I have the feeling that I hear what you are talking about but have never really focused on it. What I mean is that I have some amps that I gravitate toward, as well as OD pedals. I like them because of the clarity and note separation that I hear in them. I can definitely hear the differences in the guitars through my rig. I have had other guitar players that have come up and played my rig that tell me it is really good and they wished theirs had the tone and touch sensitivity that mine has. One of my friends has told me that he has never heard my guitar sound bad at a gig.

We're probably talking about the same thing - it's so hard to talk about sound in words!

There is a guy in my area that played with Miles Davis for a while in his career. I met him in a little hole in the wall bar playing in a band that barely had enough room to setup and play. His tone was one of the best I have ever heard. I had to see what he was playing through. When I saw it, I about fell over. I then had to talk to this guy after seeing he was playing through a 1x12 combo with a Boss GT-100. He had the midrange dialed in perfectly for that amp. After talking to him I found out that he was only using the power section and speaker in the combo. He was running the GT in the effects return. This guy knew and understood effects and how to dial them in. I asked him how long it took to get that EQ dialed in. He said a few gigs. He was a really nice guy too and a great player.

That's interesting! What style of music?

 

[JasonE]

We're probably talking about the same thing - it's so hard to talk about sound in words!


That's interesting! What style of music?

He was playing a lot of classic rock. I saw that I had a typo in the model of the Boss. It was actually a GT-10, not the 100. He had great clean and driven tones dialed in on that thing.

 

[jxe]

look, i am an old man and therefore transparency is a straight wire with gain. i have a rolls di that belonged to alan parsons (also an old man) and when we spoke about it back in the 90s he agreed with me.