Action, String Tension And Other Observations

[László]

I just watched a video about Chet Atkins, and one of the old-timers interviewed said that he noticed that Chet kept his action much higher than most electric guitar players would. He felt that was one of the secrets of the beautiful, clear tone that Chet got. He said that a lot of players "play the pickups" and Chet "played the strings."

When I met Robben Ford, he handed me his then-main-axe, a red Baker semi-hollow, and said that he deliberately set the action very high to get a better tone out of his guitars. And indeed it was much higher than how I'd set mine! But geez, Ford is a guy whose tone other players have chased for years and years, and few have gotten it down.

But then, he's a great player, and I'm a guy who isn't. Still, it's interesting, this relationship between how some players perceive tone, and how others do. I know plenty of players who set their action very low. Maybe that relationship between strings and pickups has them more "playing the pickups" than the strings...I am not enough of a guitar specialist to know for sure.

I've kept the action on my Tonare Grand acoustic set the way it came from the factory. I might have had it adjusted a little lower if the darn thing didn't sound so fantastic just the way it is. The tone is so beautiful, up and down the neck. Each string rings out clearly and cleanly no matter where I play on the neck. So I decided I'm not messing with it.

The other thing I've noticed is on my McCarty Singlecut. One of the great things about a two-piece bridge is that not only the action, but also the string tension can be adjusted. The string tension came adjusted a little tighter than I was previously used to on my earlier Singlecuts. So it's a little harder to bend than my SC58 or SC245. Not much, just a little.

But here's the thing - the notes ring out and sustain like crazy. And strumming chords, everything hangs together so well! The notes don't detune easily as they sometimes do with an electric guitar that has a low action and low string tension. Everything stays in tune better, and this is especially true playing chords.

Joe Bonamassa is a guy who changes the wrap on his Les Pauls to wrap over the top, instead of through the bridge, because it reduces string tension. He can bend more easily. No doubt, raising the stop tail on a 2-piece will do some of that, too. But even so, I think I've gained something by having this little bit of extra string tension on my guitar!

It's not extreme, by the way, it's just enough to notice.

I'm not a guy who plays lots of notes when I solo, though. I tend to cobble together a decent melody instead.

Anyway, forgive the random thoughts this morning, but I'd be interested in seeing some discussion on these topics!

 

[Mikegarveyblues]

Low action seems to be the ultimate goal of a lot of players. My action is fractionally higher than the PRS specs but I need that because any lower then I don't play as cleanly as I would like. Strings wind up slipping under my fingers and I have to watch my dynamics more and keep them more muted. I can play lead lines as fast as I want to play them... I'm no Vai by any stretch but I probably would have to lower the action if I wanted to shred more. But that would come at the cost of other things that I value more than raw speed.

I suppose it does translate to better tone... At least to my ears as I can play more freely and illicit what I want from the guitar. It opens things up, especially when playing clean.

Having said all that, by all accounts David Gilmour plays with a low action and he plays with all the dynamics in the world even when clean.

Whatever works...

 

[Steelgrave]

Low action seems to be the ultimate goal of a lot of players. My action is fractionally higher than the PRS specs but I need that because any lower then I don't play as cleanly as I would like. Strings wind up slipping under my fingers and I have to watch my dynamics more and keep them more muted. I can play lead lines as fast as I want to play them... I'm no Vai by any stretch but I probably would have to lower the action if I wanted to shred more. But that would come at the cost of other things that I value more than raw speed.

I suppose it does translate to better tone... At least to my ears as I can play more freely and illicit what I want from the guitar. It opens things up, especially when playing clean.

Having said all that, by all accounts David Gilmour plays with a low action and he plays with all the dynamics in the world even when clean.

Whatever works...

I envy David Gilmour's tones. The man has magic fingers. His live performances are mind blasting.

 

[Mixstar]

Would keeping the action the same and lowering the pups do the same thing as raising the action to move the strings away from the pups? I'm quite interested in the higher string tensioning though. I pick a lot and when I'm not concentrating as I should I catch other strings but more importantly I get the strings slipping under my fingers like Mike said. Maybe a bit more oomph on the tension front may cure that. Wrapping the strings over the top of the stop on LP's is fraught with conjecture. It's a horses for courses thing, I tried it on my LP and it didn't make any noticeable difference to me.

 

[László]

Would keeping the action the same and lowering the pups do the same thing as raising the action to move the strings away from the pups? I'm quite interested in the higher string tensioning though.

Hard to say. There's a relationship between pickup height and distance from strings and all, but I think that a certain distance has to be maintained between the fretboard and the strings, adjusted in relation to the action, if for no other reason than to prevent buzzing, which to me is a tone-robber.

I switched to .010s to add a little tension a few years back, because .009s were starting to feel like rubber bands to me. However, the McSC with its 24.75 inch scale length is tighter feeling than my CU24, with its 25" scale length, the way it's set up. It's still easy to play, but chording sounds a bit better to me this way.

Anyway, it's all interesting stuff!

 

[Mixstar]

Anyway, it's all interesting stuff!

You're right it is, when I've done messing with my Paul Allender I'll have an experiment. I would imagine that the difference from the fretboard to the strings can make huge differences after all the strings are vibrating but they can't be totally free as the fretboard must absorb some of the vibrations.

I'm off to Google this

 

[swede71]

I want the action to be set so I don't hear frets in my sound when picking harder.That also means to set neck relief correctly according to my playing style.I think the recommendations By PRS works great.As Les talked about checking out professional players setup can be very interesting.Back in the early 90s I attended a Blues Saraceno showcase for Yamaha guitars in Stockholm.He was of course great and let us all try his guitar afterwards.I could hardly bend a string on that guitar.

 

[Rider1260]

Neck angle also plays a roll in string tension.
I like a little air under my strings and find on problem guitars extra neck relief opens them up tone wise.
Fender have little or no neck angle so even with the longer scale strings can feel loose / jangly thats there charm
Gibsons have tons of neck angle and headstock angle which even with shorter scale puts a bunch of force on the nut and bridge.
PRS like most things they seem to do sits right in the middle ( works for me )
As far as pickup height goes like my neck pickup LOW and Bridge pretty high give me variety and a great tone with both pickups.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Anyway, forgive the random thoughts this morning, but I'd be interested in seeing some discussion on these topics!

On the contrary, thanks for posting, it's not something I would have discovered unless you'd mentioned it. I seem to prefer my Archtops for some reason, now I'm going to go raise the action on all my guitars...

 

[CVS]

I had not really thought much about string tension before but I have noticed the difference in string tension between my CU24-NF3-513 (in order of least string tension to most string tension - Do others who have these 3 guitars agree? I have .010s on all 3 guitars). Over the years, I have been gradually moving towards higher action on all my guitars. I play a lot of blues and bend a lot of strings. It just seems a bit easier to do when the action is a bit higher plus it eliminates string buzz (I agree with Les - string buzz is a tone robber). To be honest, I never thought that there was a discernible difference in tone after I had raised the action on any one specific guitar, but I was not thinking that there might be a difference at the time I raised the action, so maybe I just missed the boat?????

I did not know that string tension could be adjusted & I am interested in learning more about how to adjust it (especially on my 513, if there is a way to do it without raising the action)

Great thread!

Great thread

 

[vchizzle]

The tension adjustment Les refers to is the 2 piece bridge only, raising/lowering the piece where the string ball ends are. I've always liked my action a little higher for this reason. It's a clearer tone. Same reason I like big strings. Everything sounds just a little bolder.

I had not really thought much about string tension before but I have noticed the difference in string tension between my CU24-NF3-513 (in order of least string tension to most string tension - Do others who have these 3 guitars agree? I have .010s on all 3 guitars). Over the years, I have been gradually moving towards higher action on all my guitars. I play a lot of blues and bend a lot of strings. It just seems a bit easier to do when the action is a bit higher plus it eliminates string buzz (I agree with Les - string buzz is a tone robber). To be honest, I never thought that there was a discernible difference in tone after I had raised the action on any one specific guitar, but I was not thinking that there might be a difference at the time I raised the action, so maybe I just missed the boat?????

I did not know that string tension could be adjusted & I am interested in learning more about how to adjust it (especially on my 513, if there is a way to do it without raising the action)

Great thread!

Great thread

 

[Rachmaninoff]

All this setup stuff is very very intesting, because each guitarist has his own view & feel. Regarding action, I setup all my guitars with 1mm between the string and the fret, at the 12th fret. That's way too low for many people, but I like it. And I understand I'm sacrificing tone for comfort.

Higher action = better tone & sustain, that's a fact. To add another anectote to this thread, I once saw Yngwie Malmsteen guitar. I always read about how high he had his action, but I didn't imagine it was that high... crazy high action.

 

[Huggy Love]

When I brought my HB to Gary Brawer for a re-fret I requested the setup to be the same as how I brought it in, I had spend some time getting the right balance of tone & playability. Thankfully after the work was done he was able to match the same setup perfectly (how could I doubt the GP magazine columnist on repair:redface, and I asked him what he considered my string height & action to be. He said it was just a bit higher than average and not low by any standard. When I first picked up the guitar long ago I read that the pros used heavier strings and higher action for better tone, never thought about it much since then, but I guess it was subconscious over the years of my quest for tone.

I have 2 main guitars I play at this time, my HB setup for songwriting and jazz, or my 408 setup with lower action (just above fret buzz land) because I use the solid body for distorted sounds mostly. I find the tone thing to be more evident playing clean sounds and lower action a little more important in shredding rock or fusion solos, so my setups vary a little for each instrument and task to be performed.

 

[greiswig]

Joe Bonamassa is a guy who changes the wrap on his Les Pauls to wrap over the top, instead of through the bridge, because it reduces string tension. He can bend more easily. No doubt, raising the stop tail on a 2-piece will do some of that, too. But even so, I think I've gained something by having this little bit of extra string tension on my guitar!

I am totally confused by this. I do not see how you can affect the tension (at least static tension) of the string without affecting the pitch? Pitch of the string is a function of string mass, length, and tension, so...unless you are affecting one of those other two variables how can you possibly change the tension without changing pitch?

I thought wrapping the strings over the bridge (like Schroeder, etc) was more an intent to give the string firmer contact with the bridge. And "adding length" to the string by wrapping it around the bridge would only affect dynamic tension if the string were allowed to move on the bridge, which I'm pretty sure would be a bad thing.

 

[Shauncho]

funny, just the other day I re-evaluated my setup. When I first got the guitar I couldn't hang with the factory height, I had to lower it. But then the other day I started thinking about the tone/sustain vs day one and I felt something wasn't right so raised it a little and am much happier now. Still low enough to be comfortable for me, yet my notes ring truer and longer now. I'm not really a flashy, notey speed player so it works for me.

Anyone have precision gauges and care to share their "comfortable" measurements for their given string thicknesses? Given we're talking the difference between 1/32-1/64th of a mm, it might be helpful for those less experienced to setting up their own guitars to get an idea of different setup formulations that work for seasoned players.

 

[Rachmaninoff]

I am totally confused by this. I do not see how you can affect the tension (at least static tension) of the string without affecting the pitch?

"Tension" is an inaccurate term to describe the phenomenon. Maybe "feel" would describe it better...

Check this page.

 

[tip]

Here's a hundred threads on string tension from The Gear Page :http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?search/2480345/&q=string+tension&o=date&c[title_only]=1

It's amazing that Tony Iommi, BB King and Billy Gibbons use 8's.

I think playing at bedroom level volume you can hear the difference of string size and height but at stage volume you can get a signal chain that will allow spider web strings to sound strong.
I wish I could play with mediums and high action because it sounds lush at my typical volume levels. But at 60 I am playing hybrid 9-46 mostly and some 9-42 & 9.5-44 sets.

The string length between the nut and the saddle is not the only feel( tension) factor. Teles have an extra 1.5 to 2" saddle length and the long fender headstock. That's one of the reasons they sound huge loud turned up.
LP's and some PRS's sound huge by design not string tension.

I love the Music Man and PRS snakehead headstocks. Direct string thru and short string length. At this point I need a perfect low cut nut and not the lowest but close to it for ease of play.

 

[László]

I am totally confused by this. I do not see how you can affect the tension (at least static tension) of the string without affecting the pitch? Pitch of the string is a function of string mass, length, and tension, so...unless you are affecting one of those other two variables how can you possibly change the tension without changing pitch?

I thought wrapping the strings over the bridge (like Schroeder, etc) was more an intent to give the string firmer contact with the bridge. And "adding length" to the string by wrapping it around the bridge would only affect dynamic tension if the string were allowed to move on the bridge, which I'm pretty sure would be a bad thing.

On a two piece bridge, it's called top-wrapping, and it's explained here. The result is less break angle over the bridge:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/string-theory-what-is-top-wrapping

I've tried it with my old SG Special that I had a two piece bridge installed on in 1971. It changes the feel, but then again, I'm not into scientific measurements of this stuff. It feels a bit less tight, that's all I know. I went back to the standard way of doing it with the next string change because I thought it felt too loopy.

 

[CVS]

The tension adjustment Les refers to is the 2 piece bridge only, raising/lowering the piece where the string ball ends are. I've always liked my action a little higher for this reason. It's a clearer tone. Same reason I like big strings. Everything sounds just a little bolder.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[CVS]

It's amazing that Tony Iommi, BB King and Billy Gibbons use 8's.

Given all the humid weather we have had in my neck of the woods recently, I am ready to put 8's on a few of my guitars. The calluses on my fingers seem to get softer when it is warm & humid outside